Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Another Beast Enters The Stage, The US A380 Engine  
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8480 times:

The Engine Alliance (EA) has reached a major milestone in the development of its GP7200 engine with delivery of the first four compliance/flight test engines for the Airbus A380.

Airbus will install nacelle and airplane system components on these engines starting in October to support the upcoming A380/GP7200 flight test program.

"Everyone on the Engine Alliance team is very proud today," said Bruce Hughes, EA president. "This is a goal we have been working towards since GE and Pratt & Whitney formed the Engine Alliance in 1996 -- to give airlines the best performing, most reliable engine for new, super jumbo aircraft such as the A380.

We are particularly pleased because our compliance engines are right on the Airbus fuel burn specification."


http://finanzen.net/news/news_detail.asp?NewsNr=338597

http://www.airlinersairlinersairliners.net/A380_Debut_Approaching/Airbus380_engine_victorville2.jpg

Emirates, Air France & Fedex will use it.

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSq212 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 272 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8425 times:

So we will know by year end which engines will out perform the other?

User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6895 posts, RR: 63
Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8422 times:

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Emirates, Air France & Fedex will use it.

As will Korean.

Lufthansa, Virgin, SIA, Malaysia, Etihad and QANTAS have chosen the RR Trent. The EA have 46% (4 customers) of confirmed sales so far (largely thanks to EK), RR have 36% (6 customers) and 19% (5 customers) are undecided. That's 'end users'; I'm not counting ILFC.


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12138 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8405 times:

Do we know which test airframe these engines will be installed on? For an engine installation on a 4 engine jet, usually they will ship 5+ engines, so there are spares available. This will prevent any delays in the test program should an engine change be required, like for a bird injestion.

User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6895 posts, RR: 63
Reply 4, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8393 times:

Quoting Sq212 (Reply 1):
So we will know by year end which engines will out perform the other?

I very much doubt if it will be that clear cut. Engines don't compete on only one criterion but on many. One will do better than the other on X but less well on Y. Think of the PW2000 vs. RB211-535 on the 757. Each had strengths and weaknesses. Each airline had to decide what was more important for them. There's unlikely to be a "better" engine on the A380.


User currently offlineEha From France, joined May 2005, 211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8282 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 3):
Do we know which test airframe these engines will be installed on?

installed on the 5th A380 (MSN5?), flight tests planned on Q1 06


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9038 posts, RR: 75
Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8149 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 3):
Do we know which test airframe these engines will be installed on?

Would imagine that picture was taken on the GEAE 747 classic.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31679 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8077 times:

Wow.Nice Pic.Whats the Ground clearence like.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineJush From Germany, joined Apr 2005, 1636 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7971 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 4):
I very much doubt if it will be that clear cut. Engines don't compete on only one criterion but on many. One will do better than the other on X but less well on Y. Think of the PW2000 vs. RB211-535 on the 757. Each had strengths and weaknesses. Each airline had to decide what was more important for them. There's unlikely to be a "better" engine on the A380.

True words my friend.

It's not that easy to tell. And they're all very good manufacturers so i doubt that any engine will do "much" better than another one.

Regards
jush



There is one problem with airbus. Though their products are engineering marvels they lack passion, completely.
User currently offlineHanginOut From Austria, joined May 2005, 550 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 7545 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 4):
Each had strengths and weaknesses.

Could someone tell me what the strengths and weaknesses between the two engines are?

Thanks

HanginOut



Dreaming of the day I can work for an airline
User currently offlineLono From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1335 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 7366 times:

Quoting HanginOut (Reply 9):
Could someone tell me what the strengths and weaknesses between the two engines are?

Thanks

One is stronger than the weaker one



Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13026 posts, RR: 100
Reply 11, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 7291 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
We are particularly pleased because our compliance engines are right on the Airbus fuel burn specification."

That's huge. At this point, engines are usually 1 or 2% below spec. Therefore, I would *guess* that there still can be another 1% of fuel burn cut out. However, for the Alliance to get any orders I know they had to promise a big improvement in fuel burn... so it might not be the case this time around.

Quoting Sq212 (Reply 1):
So we will know by year end which engines will out perform the other?



Quoting PM (Reply 4):
There's unlikely to be a "better" engine on the A380.

Well said, unless one is a dog (e.g., the JT8D on the 727 couldn't be kicked off. The pw4098 was a black eye for Pratt...) How are you doing?

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
and 19% (5 customers) are undecided.

How these customers go will show you which engine has the lead. I know the alliance had to work very hard to match RR...

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineMarshalN From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2005, 1521 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 7212 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 4):
I very much doubt if it will be that clear cut. Engines don't compete on only one criterion but on many. One will do better than the other on X but less well on Y. Think of the PW2000 vs. RB211-535 on the 757. Each had strengths and weaknesses. Each airline had to decide what was more important for them. There's unlikely to be a "better" engine on the A380.

Very true, although on the other hand, many airlines have a long term working relationship with one engine maker, and they practically don't order the other. CX comes to mind with their RR only policy, at least when RR is a choice I think (except those ex-SQ 747s).


User currently offlineSparkingWave From South Korea, joined Jun 2005, 671 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 7160 times:

Quoting Lono (Reply 10):
One is stronger than the weaker one

That's too simple. One will be stronger, but one will cost less to maintain. One will be quieter, and one will be more fuel efficient. Mechanics of an airline will like one engine over the other because of how similar they are to other engines in that airline's fleet, and so on...

I'd love to be the exec that gets to select the powerplant for her/his airline!

SparkingWave



Flights to the moon and all major space stations. At Pan Am, the sky is no longer the limit!
User currently offlineDynkrisolo From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1863 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 7132 times:

Quoting MarshalN (Reply 12):
CX comes to mind with their RR only policy, at least when RR is a choice I think (except those ex-SQ 747s).

You forgot that they have a big 343 fleet which is powered by the CFM56.


User currently offlineLono From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1335 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 7000 times:

Quoting SparkingWave (Reply 13):
That's too simple.

I appologize... I was being a smart a$$



Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
User currently offlineKaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2373 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 6184 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 6):
Would imagine that picture was taken on the GEAE 747 classic.

Yes, an ex PanAm 747-100, previously named Clipper Juan T. Trippe. Line number 25. In the background, you can see the old PW JT9.


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6895 posts, RR: 63
Reply 17, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 5444 times:

Quoting HanginOut (Reply 9):
Could someone tell me what the strengths and weaknesses between the two engines are?

My friend Lightsaber can tell you much more but, as I understand it, the PW2000 on the 757 used far less fuel (  Smile ) but required far more maintenance (  Sad ) than the RB211. So, you're buying a fleet of 757s. Do you go for a more economical engine that needs to be taken off the wing (relatively) frequently or one that uses more fuel but will fly for twice as long between visits to the doctor? And that was just two factors out of many.


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6484 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 5279 times:

So one question that I've always been curious of — why did RR and GE/PW develop new engines for a power range that is already covered well by the 777 engines?


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 5183 times:

Quoting N328KF (Reply 18):
So one question that I've always been curious of — why did RR and GE/PW develop new engines for a power range that is already covered well by the 777 engines?

Many reasons including ancillary requirements and fan diameter.

The GP 7200 is a risk sharing project between GE and PW using elements of both companies engines, as neither company wanted to finance the project or work it up alone. Take the best parts of the PW4000 and GE90 family and build an engine...saves on development costs as well. Each company had existing technology to bring to the deal, which would mean lower development cost.

The GE90 family is too big and the PW4000 has its weaknesses. The GP7200 is a hybrid which eliminates both factors.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 11):
How these customers go will show you which engine has the lead. I know the alliance had to work very hard to match RR...

The EK deal alone (plus Air France) was a major coup for GP. FedEx have also specified the GP7200 on theirs.


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6895 posts, RR: 63
Reply 20, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 5095 times:

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 19):
The EK deal alone (plus Air France) was a major coup for GP. FedEx have also specified the GP7200 on theirs.

Korean have too, making the customer base four.

I'm still convinced that the Emirates deal went to the EA at least partly because of RR's success on other EK types. When they ordered their A380s EK had RR A330s, RR 777s and had RR A340s on order. Choosing RR for their A380s would have put all their eggs in one basket. (This was prior to the 777ER order and before they leased CFM A343s.) Their earlier success may have cost RR this huge order.


User currently offlineWidebodyphotog From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 917 posts, RR: 67
Reply 21, posted (8 years 11 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4852 times:

Quoting Sq212 (Reply 1):
So we will know by year end which engines will out perform the other?

Put together some data from both engines. Installed SFC numbers are still yet to be finalized, but there is not much either of the engines give away to the other.






-widebodyphotog



If you know what's really going on then you'll know what to do
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13026 posts, RR: 100
Reply 22, posted (8 years 11 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4819 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PM (Reply 17):

My friend Lightsaber can tell you much more but, as I understand it, the PW2000 on the 757 used far less fuel ( Smile ) but required far more maintenance ( Sad ) than the RB211.

I wish I could tell you more about the two A380 engines but intead I point you to post 21. You have the important part of the RB211 vs pw2000 argument in that nice concise statement.  spin 

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 21):
Put together some data from both engines. Installed SFC numbers are still yet to be finalized, but there is not much either of the engines give away to the other.

Nice data!

Oh, One correction. I should have written "normally at this point an engine is about 1% ABOVE its target TSFC." oops.  Sad So i do expect the vendors to improve their TSFC just a tad before entry into service. (Mostly by final tuning of the stators and other control loops.)

Take it easy,
Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21516 posts, RR: 60
Reply 23, posted (8 years 11 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4765 times:

Those are some LOOOOOOOOONG engines at 180+ feet.  Wink


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
A380 Engine Test In The U.S. posted Sun Nov 6 2005 22:05:06 by SATL382G
What Are These Stars On The A380 Engine? posted Sun Jan 9 2005 03:26:57 by A380900
Another Varig 777 To The Desert posted Sat Sep 23 2006 04:36:42 by AirTranTUS
How are the Loads on US-Brazil Flights posted Fri Jul 14 2006 23:43:18 by 767-300ER
Electrical Systems The Main Cause Of A380 Delay posted Mon Jun 19 2006 13:33:37 by EI321
The New All New A350 Engine posted Sat May 13 2006 14:26:50 by Trex8
Round-the-World Fares/US-UK Disparity posted Wed Apr 5 2006 00:57:10 by 28thguy
Keep Up The Good Work US Air! posted Thu Mar 30 2006 04:10:52 by WN2CMH
Boeing Pedicts Another Phenomenal Year For The 787 posted Wed Mar 29 2006 08:21:35 by OyKIE