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El Al Routes Over The Middle East  
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2780 posts, RR: 2
Posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8474 times:

I was surfing El Al’s website and noticed something interesting on their route map. All of the routes headed east from Tel Aviv make drastic detours around the middle east, mainly Iraq, Iran and Saudi Arabia. I understand that route maps are diagrammatic and not meant to be taken literally, but the routes in this map seem deliberate. I understand why this would be, but do they really fly that route as shown? It seems really inefficient. Do they not have permission to fly over any of these countries or do they avoid them for their own safety purposes.

http://www.elal.co.il/default.asp?v_doc_id=340&v_lang_id=0

Related to this, do US airlines not have permission to fly over any countries, Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Burma?

Please forgive me if this issue has already been discussed, but I couldn’t find a forum specific to this topic.

21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8460 times:

Quoting United787 (Thread starter):
Do they not have permission to fly over any of these countries or do they avoid them for their own safety purposes

No, they do not have air rights over those areas, they are still in a "state of war".

However, one of the more interesting facts in LY history was their service to Tehran, Iran.

I've posted the topic before, and you will find archeived.


User currently offlineKL808 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1585 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8446 times:

Quoting United787 (Thread starter):
do they really fly that route as shown?

Yes.

They dont have permission to fly over islamic countries in the region such as Saudi, Iran etc.

It has to do with Israels diplomatic ties with those said countries. Since there is no diplomatic ties with any of those countries, flying over and other matters are not allowed. And ofcourse the obvious reason that all of these countries can't get along.

Drew



AMS-LAX-MNL
User currently offlineFoxBravo From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 3008 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8425 times:

Quoting United787 (Thread starter):
Related to this, do US airlines not have permission to fly over any countries, Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Burma?

U.S. airlines routinely fly over Cuba--for example, on JFK-MBJ. I do not believe U.S. airlines can fly over Iran or North Korea. However, Burma/Myanmar shouldn't be a problem.



Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
User currently offlineKL808 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1585 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8402 times:

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 3):
I do not believe U.S. airlines can fly over Iran

I think they can.

By the way an NW DC-10 landed in Teheran a couple months back due to mechanical problems. This would have not been possible if it was LY.

Drew



AMS-LAX-MNL
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8385 times:

Why would El Al even fly east if they have to take such a detour. I would imagine that it would a couple of hours to a flight. If I was a potential passenger, I would take another airline, if there was an alternative choice.

User currently offlineMGASJO From Nicaragua, joined Feb 2005, 466 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8378 times:

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 3):
.S. airlines routinely fly over Cuba--for example, on JFK-MBJ.

Not only that. All flights from Central and South America bound to MIA or JFK fly over Cuba. Many AA captains say the controllers in Cuba are very professional, friendly and helpful, there is only one spot on the northeast part of Cuba they get jumpy when asked to fly over there.



C208B
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8351 times:

Quoting United787 (Reply 5):
Why would El Al even fly east if they have to take such a detour. I would imagine that it would a couple of hours to a flight. If I was a potential passenger, I would take another airline, if there was an alternative choice

An Example:

In the 1960's LY flew JFK-JNB; They flew east to Teheran, from there southwest over the Persian Gulf to central Africa, then to JNB. It involved 25 heading changes to avaoid flying over "hostile" areas.

It was a 16 hour flight, and added 2,400 miles to the trip.


User currently offlineKL808 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1585 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8336 times:

Quoting United787 (Reply 5):
Why would El Al even fly east if they have to take such a detour. I would imagine that it would a couple of hours to a flight

True, however, its asian network is very profitable.

HKG and BKK is doing good.

How exactly could you get from TLV to Asia, without flying LY?

As far as I can tell, you cant unless you fly to CAI, ATH or Aman and from there to Asia. Thats a Detour also, which involves more time than the detour with LY.

Drew



AMS-LAX-MNL
User currently offlineLY7E7 From Israel, joined Jun 2004, 2262 posts, RR: 19
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 8275 times:

Quoting KL808 (Reply 8):
you fly to CAI, ATH or Aman and from there to Asia. Thats a Detour also, which involves more time than the detour with LY

Actually flying TLV-AMM-XXX with RJ (XXX being an East-Asian destination) is still faster than taking LY's detour. RJ offers excellent connections from TLV, that's why they are so succefull here.



2 things are endless: ignorance and space
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 8253 times:

Quoting United787 (Thread starter):
Related to this, do US airlines not have permission to fly over any countries, Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Burma?

Cuba and Iran, yes. Don't know about the other to. Remember, it is the US that has something against Cuba and Iran, not the other way around. Cuba and Iran are very willing to even let US airline fly there on a scheduled basis, if the US would let them.



a.
User currently offlineMKEdude From South Korea, joined May 2005, 1011 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 8196 times:

What about in the event of an emergency? If an LY aircraft experienced an emergency while flying down the Red Sea, could Saudi Arabia refuse them permission to land?


"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline." Frank Zappa
User currently offlineAC787 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 337 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 8126 times:

Quoting MGASJO (Reply 6):
there is only one spot on the northeast part of Cuba they get jumpy when asked to fly over there.

what is there? Guantanamo?


User currently offlineFoxBravo From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 3008 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8065 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
Remember, it is the US that has something against Cuba and Iran, not the other way around.

That was true of Afghanistan a few years back, but the U.S. still did not let its airlines fly over the country. In fact, as I recall Delta had to suspend its codeshare with Swissair (yes, back when SR still existed, and DL still codeshared with them!) on ZRH-BKK because the flights crossed Afghan airspace.



Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
User currently offlineIRelayer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 1073 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8013 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
Cuba and Iran, yes. Don't know about the other to. Remember, it is the US that has something against Cuba and Iran, not the other way around.

Incorrect in Iran's case (I don't know about Cuba). The US and Iran have a problem with each other. The two governments have had mutual distrust of one another ever since...well you might have heard of it...the Iranian Hostage Crisis (1980-81). In response to this the US cut off formal diplomatic ties to Iran and imposed sanctions on Iran which stand to this day. It is illegal for any US citizen to do business with Iran. Not to mention that in Iran the government endorses the phrase "The Great Satan" to describe the US Government. So they both hate each other (the governments, not the people).

Basically there is more of a chance of the US normalizing relations with Cuba in the near future than with Iran, especially with the nuclear issue on the table.

-IR


User currently offlineBoysteve From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 958 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 7928 times:

Quoting United787 (Reply 5):
Why would El Al even fly east if they have to take such a detour. I would imagine that it would a couple of hours to a flight. If I was a potential passenger, I would take another airline, if there was an alternative choice.

All alternatives from the region would be Arabic, so wouldn't fly from Israel.

That was true of Afghanistan a few years back, but the U.S. still did not let its airlines fly over the country

SQ's MAN-SIN flight flies over Afghanistan in both directions, or it did when I was on board last month


User currently offlineFoxBravo From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 3008 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 7906 times:

Quoting Boysteve (Reply 15):
SQ's MAN-SIN flight flies over Afghanistan in both directions, or it did when I was on board last month

As did BA and QF when I flew them between LHR and BKK. But none of these are U.S. airlines!  Smile

Besides, now that the Taliban are out, the U.S. has lifted those restrictions anyway.



Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
User currently offlineETStar From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7883 times:

Quoting Boysteve (Reply 15):
All alternatives from the region would be Arabic, so wouldn't fly from Israel.

As surprising as it is, BKK bound pax from TLV also use Ethiopian Airlines via ADD, with this airline providing good connections and doing quite a bit of marketing for it...

Quoting MKEdude (Reply 11):

What about in the event of an emergency? If an LY aircraft experienced an emergency while flying down the Red Sea, could Saudi Arabia refuse them permission to land?

A few years ago, an LY flight had an emergency and landed in Djibouti. No hell broke loose.


User currently offlineLevg79 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 995 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7873 times:

Don't know about Iran and North Korea, but US airlines do fly over Cuba regularly. I would assume CU also overflies the US on its flights to Canada and Europe.

Not only that, CO even provides service between MIA and HAV

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Javier F. Bobadilla - Iberian Spotters


Remember, Americans can't go to Cuba as tourists, but can go otherwise, such as visiting relatives or on job-related visits.



A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
User currently offlineNYCFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1388 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7698 times:

Quoting KL808 (Reply 4):
By the way an NW DC-10 landed in Teheran a couple months back due to mechanical problems

Whoa, where on earth was a NW DC-10 flying that it was over Iran?? Was it a charter or ferry flight? None of NW's normal routes go anywhere near that part of the world.

Interestingly: I've flown to Kuwait twice, once on LH (FRA-KWI), and the other on KU (LHR-KWI). LH flew straight over Iraq, top to bottom, en route to KWI. That is the most direct routing from Europe.

KU, on the other hand, when well out of its way to go south of Iraq, and turn north over Saudi Arabia before landing. So KU clearly does not overly Iraq, and LH does. Must be some legacy of the 1990 invasion, but I'm surprised they still do not, now that Saddam is no longer in power.


User currently offlineUSADreamliner From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7663 times:

Quoting United787 (Reply 5):
Why would El Al even fly east if they have to take such a detour. I would imagine that it would a couple of hours to a flight. If I was a potential passenger, I would take another airline, if there was an alternative choice

Like what airline?
BA? flying to London west 5 hours?
LH,AF,LX?

Please...

USAdreamliner


User currently offlineAhlfors From Canada, joined Oct 2000, 1347 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7657 times:

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 19):
Whoa, where on earth was a NW DC-10 flying that it was over Iran?? Was it a charter or ferry flight? None of NW's normal routes go anywhere near that part of the world.

The daily flight from Amsterdam to Mumbai goes over Iran twice daily (once in both directions).


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