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Nartia Building Their 3rd Runway  
User currently offlineKaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2364 posts, RR: 3
Posted (8 years 10 months 6 days ago) and read 4080 times:

I recently downloaded Google Earth, which is a satellite imagery program. The photos are pretty new (updated in 2005). When I zoomed in on Tokyo Narita Airport, I saw some major construction vehicles and a massive dirt clearing where the 3rd runway should be. Does anyone know if they actually are finally building the runway?

34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePetera380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 347 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4009 times:
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I don't believe they are building a 3rd runway. The building of the second runway took ages and finally had to be shorten because someone wouldn't see his land. If you look at the Google image you can see his house with the second runway on side and the remains of what should have been the rest of the runway on the other side of his house!

User currently offlineKaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2364 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3969 times:

Yea, but the third runway is a diagonal one, in between the terminals and the maintainence facilities. And there is major work going on there. so something is probably being built.

User currently offlineBill142 From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 8440 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3947 times:

When I was there in 2003 they were building T1 South. I would imagine that, being 2 years on it would be completed or close to being competed as most of the external structure appeared to be in place.

User currently offlineKtachiya From Japan, joined Sep 2004, 1792 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3901 times:

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 3):
I would imagine that, being 2 years on it would be completed or close to being competed as most of the external structure appeared to be in place

I was on the plane that was taxiing to rwy 34L last week. It apparently seemed like they were extending T1 to accompany more planes. I think I have an idea as to where you are saying that the new rwy is going to be built. Isn't that near the Sierra 4 gateway? Because if you look at a birds-eye view of the airport, it seriously looks like a cross-wind rwy. The thing is, it's a txy for now. And I am sure they'd have problems with noise, etc, farmers, and it'll end up in a tomato fight if they try to open it.

So I wouldn't be too optimistic about anything happening to NRT.

That's why I am one of those that thinks that HND should take care of anything in the long-term.



Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3871 times:

They are simply extending the second runway to make it long enough to accommodate longer distance flights with heavier airplanes. Currently departures are limited to a perimeter of destinations.

User currently offlineJet-lagged From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 872 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3859 times:

They are not building a third run-way at Narita. I looked at the photo and think that those could be taxiways linking what was supposed to be the end of the newer, second runway. A month or two ago the news media reported that the airport authority had given up on extended the second runway in the originally intended direction (to the east I guess) and would go the other way (to the west I guess) which is the less effective solution. There are still some 7 farmers who are holding out on selling their land to allow the project to finish. And you can see, for example,the second runway and the taxiway to the side have chunks missing.

On a political note, I've always felt this is absurd that such a small number of persons could block what is essentially the second international runway for world's second largest economy. Certainly individuals' rights must be respected, but think of the countless hours (millions) wasted by persons delayed at the airport due to having only one major runway, or wasted fuel burnt polluting the environment. The time and money spent fighting about this could have gone to worthy causes for those in need. In this case the balance of the individual vs. the society as a whole is way out of whack.


User currently offlineAndahuailas From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 138 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3846 times:

Its not a third runway, they are adding taxiways now that the remodeling/extension of T1 is almost finished. The taxiways will allow planes to go between runways without existing restriction of traffic direction.

User currently offlineKaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2364 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3803 times:

Quoting Jet-lagged (Reply 6):
On a political note, I've always felt this is absurd that such a small number of persons could block what is essentially the second international runway for world's second largest economy. Certainly individuals' rights must be respected, but think of the countless hours (millions) wasted by persons delayed at the airport due to having only one major runway, or wasted fuel burnt polluting the environment. The time and money spent fighting about this could have gone to worthy causes for those in need. In this case the balance of the individual vs. the society as a whole is way out of whack.

I totally agree. But both runways are used for landings. However, the airport operates on single runway take off (on the longer one).


User currently offlineMarshalN From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2005, 1521 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3780 times:

Quoting Jet-lagged (Reply 6):
On a political note, I've always felt this is absurd that such a small number of persons could block what is essentially the second international runway for world's second largest economy.

Agreed, except that it's the third international runway, unless you're a die hard Tokyoite and doesn't think KIX is an international runway :p

I would've thought that there must be some sort of eminent domain rights for the government to condemn such land? I mean, the Chiba voters can't be THAT powerful....


User currently offlineJet-lagged From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 872 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3755 times:

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 8):
I totally agree. But both runways are used for landings. However, the airport operates on single runway take off (on the longer one).

Even, then, I usually seem to land on the older, longer one. Even when I fly ANA, in which case we have to taxi all the way back to the new terminal. I wish the new runway was used more!

Quoting MarshalN (Reply 9):
Agreed, except that it's the third international runway, unless you're a die hard Tokyoite and doesn't think KIX is an international runway :p

You are right! KIX, plus other international gateways, do exist and operate, but outside of near Asia carriers seems to have limited success opening and maintaining flight there. Heck, even the domestic carriers suffer some fiscal pain to economically maintain flights at KIX, compared to the old Osaka airport.

Quoting MarshalN (Reply 9):
I would've thought that there must be some sort of eminent domain rights for the government to condemn such land? I mean, the Chiba voters can't be THAT powerful....

Yeah. And, think about other the new airports recently built in Asia on land - Guangzhou, Bangkok, KL, Pudong. They have not had such difficulties in securing the land needed in full.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17369 posts, RR: 46
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3704 times:

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 2):
Yea, but the third runway is a diagonal one

I know what you're talking about...that's been there forever...before even the second runway was built. I'm not sure what the intention was for it since it does look like it could serve as a runway but it's never been anything but an additional taxiway between Terminals One and Two.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineQANTAS077 From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 5850 posts, RR: 40
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3648 times:

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 8):
I totally agree. But both runways are used for landings. However, the airport operates on single runway take off (on the longer one).

incorrect, both runways are used for takeoff but 34R/16L is used for shorthaul departures only. the position your talking about also has a motorway running underneath it, i doubt very much that they'd be building a runway ontop of a major motorway!



a true friend is someone who sees the pain in your eyes, while everyone else believes the smile on your face.
User currently offlineKaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2364 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3608 times:

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 12):
i doubt very much that they'd be building a runway ontop of a major motorway!

That's not really an obstacle. The build runway bridges everywhere.


User currently offlineBill142 From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 8440 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3601 times:

Quoting Jet-lagged (Reply 10):
Yeah. And, think about other the new airports recently built in Asia on land - Guangzhou, Bangkok, KL, Pudong. They have not had such difficulties in securing the land needed in full.

Could that be because their constitutions allow the forced sale of land to government where as Japan dosn't?


User currently offlineJet-lagged From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 872 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3504 times:

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 14):
Could that be because their constitutions allow the forced sale of land to government where as Japan dosn't?

I don't know. Your elucidation would be most welcome. Share with us, please.


BTW, I was at Haneda today for spotting (the first time!). It was very telling to see that beyond the northeast runway was . . . . water! Tokyo Bay. Haneda seems a natural for expansions and international flights, if the political inertia can be overcome.

Cheers!


User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 21
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3446 times:

Quoting Jet-lagged (Reply 15):
BTW, I was at Haneda today for spotting (the first time!). It was very telling to see that beyond the northeast runway was . . . . water! Tokyo Bay. Haneda seems a natural for expansions and international flights, if the political inertia can be overcome.

Having not been there myself, I must rely on things like Google Earth as well to build my own perception.

Water (=) Space

Why not leverage this as has been done in other places in Asia to produce an airport facility; without restriction and truly world-class; opening Japan to the level of domestic and international air traffic that suits the demand? I know, that's just crazy talk......

But it certainly appears to the uneducated that the answer to Tokyo's constrictive air policies appear to be in the water of Toyko Bay.

A guy can dream can't he?



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User currently offlinePetera380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 347 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3388 times:
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I'm sure I read somewhere that a third runway will be built parallel and on the water side of HND. Incidentally have a look at NGO with Google Earth, see anything unusual?

User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3322 times:

Quoting Jet-lagged (Reply 6):
On a political note, I've always felt this is absurd that such a small number of persons could block what is essentially the second international runway for world's second largest economy. Certainly individuals' rights must be respected, but think of the countless hours (millions) wasted by persons delayed at the airport due to having only one major runway, or wasted fuel burnt polluting the environment. The time and money spent fighting about this could have gone to worthy causes for those in need. In this case the balance of the individual vs. the society as a whole is way out of whack.

I think the fault there was deciding to build an airport at Narita. Haneda could and should have been expanded as necessary.


User currently offlineKaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2364 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3226 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 18):
I think the fault there was deciding to build an airport at Narita. Haneda could and should have been expanded as necessary.

Well, Henada had a southwest terminal (all on land) and was Tokyo's only airport for a long time. But now, it would be too hard to have Tokyo's domestic and international flights all in one airport. It would probably make it bussier than London Heathrow.


User currently offlineMarshalN From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2005, 1521 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2767 times:

Quoting Jet-lagged (Reply 10):
You are right! KIX, plus other international gateways, do exist and operate, but outside of near Asia carriers seems to have limited success opening and maintaining flight there. Heck, even the domestic carriers suffer some fiscal pain to economically maintain flights at KIX, compared to the old Osaka airport.

IIRC KIX had the highest landing fees in the world. Now they're expanding the airport, but I would assume it's still god-awful expensive? Anyone knows?

Quoting Jet-lagged (Reply 15):
BTW, I was at Haneda today for spotting (the first time!). It was very telling to see that beyond the northeast runway was . . . . water! Tokyo Bay. Haneda seems a natural for expansions and international flights, if the political inertia can be overcome.

From what I know Narita was built to try to develop Chiba, which was at that point a bunch of farmlands. They believed that it was worth investing all the money into a new airport to build up the region, even though Hanada was perfectly ok for further expansion. Hong Kong did the same thing with Chek Lap Kok, except that KaiTak really wasn't fit for any more expansion and they had to find a new spot for an airport.


User currently offlineQANTAS077 From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 5850 posts, RR: 40
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days ago) and read 2620 times:

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 13):
That's not really an obstacle. The build runway bridges everywhere.

it's an obstacle when the country is prone to large earthquakes...  Wink



a true friend is someone who sees the pain in your eyes, while everyone else believes the smile on your face.
User currently offlineVincewy From Taiwan, joined Oct 2005, 767 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2602 times:

Quoting Jet-lagged (Reply 15):
BTW, I was at Haneda today for spotting (the first time!). It was very telling to see that beyond the northeast runway was . . . . water! Tokyo Bay. Haneda seems a natural for expansions and international flights, if the political inertia can be overcome

Greeting:

My very first post, haved lurked here for a long time. I've been itching to know why Japan hasn't developed and built a world class airport for Tokyo/Greater Tokyo areas, considering what ICN, HKG, KUL, SIN, and BKK have done. Looking at those 2 photos (sorry if they don't work as I just learned how to use the forum)


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jean
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jean



You can clearly see that they can expand and reclaim lands toward Tokyo Bay almost infinitely with current infrastructure in place too, ie making the underground passage detour for a mega (or 2) terminal(s) toward the bay, instead of building a brand new airport at Narita, which is not only slot constrained, but also curfew (who came up with the silly curfew hours). Unlike KIX, which is far away from the land, HND's reclaimed land will definitely be more stable since it's next to the land.

There's already a discussion on the way for Haneda expansion, you can read it here, yup, no curfew, of course if this comes to reality, it would kill NRT, KIX, and even NGO. I remember back in the 70s when Narita opened, CI was barred from using NRT and had to use HND, it turnd out to be a blessing for CI, passengers can connect from almost any point in Japan to TPE and HNL. In Taiwan, someone can fly to HND and gets things done, return to TPE the same day, impossible if you go through NRT.

If HND becomes Japan's gateway, I wonder if NRT will suffer the same fate as YMX and becomes a cargo airpot, where all passenger traffics go back to YUL.


User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2552 times:

Quoting Vincewy (Reply 22):
it would kill NRT, KIX, and even NGO

I am not sure why you think this?
KIX is suffering as it has few Domestic connections.
NGO has always been a strong Domestic market and has a very strong International Business market. The new NGO has just combined the two into one modern facility.
If they allowed more international into HND yes NRT would suffer big time.

This is why NGO has become successful. It is the only Major international airport in Japan that has a strong domestic to International connection. We get traffic from northern Japan. People will fly via NGO to international destinations because they don't need an extra day in Tokyo to make the transfer between HND and NRT.

Because of this threat NRT will be reducing its landing fees for planes 737 and smaller. KIX is also going to lower its landing fees. Soon ITM will not be restricting landing of certain aircraft (noise rules). You might see more HND-KIX flights popping up.

HND currently is the destination for all International Charter flights to Tokyo. There are a few scheduled international flights. I believe they are HND-SEL (old Kimpo) operated by KE and JL.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineNRTfan From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 10 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2530 times:

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 19):
But now, it would be too hard to have Tokyo's domestic and international flights all in one airport. It would probably make it bussier than London Heathrow.

That's a bit of an understatement. HND is already virtually equal to LHR in passenger count. In 2004, LHR had 67.3 million and HND had 62.3 million, according to this link. A hypothetical HND handling all current NRT traffic would far exceed any current passenger count, though obviously that's unrealistic.

Incidentally I'm a "fan" of NRT just because I have such great memories of the many trips I made in and out of there when I lived in Japan--certainly not because of the almost 2-hour trek to get out there. I'm all in favor of expanding HND.


25 Vincewy : I probably should be more specific, it'll affect NGO less than KIX and NRT, for regional Asian carriers the cities won't matter much, but for long ha
26 Slarty : Nartia? Naw ... that was a new movie about Narnia ... lol PS -- you shouldn't drink'n post![Edited 2005-10-03 03:53:14]
27 N1120A : The destinations are limited to how far the aircraft can fly with the loads the runway will allow. With its proposed performance, the 788 could likel
28 Post contains images MarshalN : From what I have read, yes, it's still sinking. I think the assumption is basically that it will eventually sink into water. Sort of weird planning i
29 Hoons90 : SEL: Metro/city code for Seoul, includes both GMP and ICN. (Just like CHI for Chicago, NYC for New York, LON for London etc) ICN: Incheon Int'l Airpo
30 ContinentalFan : From what I've read on the Narita runway issue, Japan's governments (central, local) don't have power of eminent domain, where they can seize propert
31 Vincewy : Ouch! What's the point of building another runway and terminal then? The expansion area is even further away from the land (deeper), I've read a geol
32 Carpethead : JL, NH, OZ, & KE all operate two dailies between GMP and HND. JL with 743, KE with 744, OZ with 333, & NH with 763s. Correct, Japan does not have emi
33 Post contains links Vincewy : Well found couple images/article concerning HND, looking at the map, it seems like HND can expand and build 2 more terminals without EVEN RECLAIMING L
34 Post contains images Mandala499 : I'm sure I read somewhere that a third runway will be built parallel and on the water side of HND. Incidentally have a look at NGO with Google Earth,
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