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French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme  
User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10038 posts, RR: 96
Posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6051 times:
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Another fascinating article in this week's FI.

French manufacturers have won a record share of 787 work.

Possibly most significant is Latecoere, (a major airbus Contractor) who will be Prime contractor for doors

Boeing view the use of such Airbus contractors as a guarantee of their capability.
Airbus view the Boeing contracts as an endorsement of its manufacturing skills.

Dowty supplying landing gear (so A380 has US landing gear, and 787 has French landing gear....fascinating, captain)

Thales providing electrical power conversion.
Michelin offering new "near zero growth" tyres for the programme.

Dassault Systems (also Airbus contractor) supplying product lifecycle software for 787 programme.
boaing said "no other aircraft manufacturer has developed an aircraft with such extensive use of this software.

Just think, one day Airbuses will be built in the USA, and Boeings will be built in France - what a wonderful world we A-netters live in.......

Enjoy

47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTaromA380 From Romania, joined Sep 2005, 334 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5852 times:

Quoting Astuteman (Thread starter):
one day Airbuses will be built in the USA, and Boeings will be built in France

That would resolve the strike problem: does Seattle goes on strike ? production moves on to Toulouse. Does the Toulousian workers threatening ? shift to Seattle for some time.  Big grin


User currently offlineSebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3681 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5751 times:

Very sad news for NAV20 ...  Smile

User currently offlineCricket From India, joined Aug 2005, 2968 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5705 times:

All this goes to prove that aircraft manufacturing is not a localised industry anymore. For example, more than half the 787's avionics software is being done by HCL Technologies in India. Airbus (and suppliers) also outsource software work and other manufacturing processes. If B goes on strike, Europe will suffer too, same holds true for A in the sense that if A goes on strike, US firms will suffer too. The grotesque and misplaced sense of nationalism (in the guise of patriotism) shown by some members of this forum is disgusting - and news like this should make them eat their words - or maybe printouts of their words!


A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1596 posts, RR: 17
Reply 4, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5698 times:

If Russia, India and China improve their aircraft manufacturing skills one day, maybe in 20 years you may see Airbus and Boeing merge. New players are more dynamic than the old... It's a matter of time where the East applies major pressure to the west.

It's globalization... you may not agree with this but its happening.  Smile



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineStall From Switzerland, joined Apr 2004, 257 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5687 times:

The 787 is doomed
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Just kidding  Smile



Flying is fun
User currently offlineGeorgiaAME From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 980 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5680 times:

If I am not mistaken, Airbus has an assembly plant of some sort here in Alabama. And I have heard said, Gallic honor not withstanding, the 380 is more American than French, and the 787 is less American than international. Go figure. Good reason for an A vs B war to be re-ignited on this web site.


"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
User currently offlineFVTu134 From Russia, joined Aug 2005, 173 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5623 times:

Now what an interesting situation would be created if EADS and Thales were to merge, as has been suggested a few times. EADS would become a supplier for the 787.
I doubt Seattle would let that happen but hey... we can all have a laugh can we.



who decided that a Horizon should be HORIZONtal???
User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5536 times:

Quoting Astuteman (Thread starter):
Another fascinating article in this week's FI.

French manufacturers have won a record share of 787 work.

Possibly most significant is Latecoere, (a major airbus Contractor) who will be Prime contractor for doors

Boeing view the use of such Airbus contractors as a guarantee of their capability.
Airbus view the Boeing contracts as an endorsement of its manufacturing skills.

Thales providing electrical power conversion.
Michelin offering new "near zero growth" tyres for the programme.

Dassault Systems (also Airbus contractor) supplying product lifecycle software for 787 programme.
boaing said "no other aircraft manufacturer has developed an aircraft with such extensive use of this software.

Just think, one day Airbuses will be built in the USA, and Boeings will be built in France - what a wonderful world we A-netters live in.......

Well, with Honda built in Ohio for the last several years, and Dodge being manufactured in Canada, is it any wonder?

However, one thing is certain: No military aircraft for the US will ever be built outside of the USA.



One Nation Under God
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5408 times:

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 4):
If Russia, India and China improve their aircraft manufacturing skills one day, maybe in 20 years you may see Airbus and Boeing merge. New players are more dynamic than the old... It's a matter of time where the East applies major pressure to the west.

actually parts of the 787 is being developed in Russia... Wink



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5327 times:

It's all so the "buy national" arguments around the globe can be mitigated by B saying "well look how many jobs it would create if you bought the 787" methinks. I'm sure France makes great doors, but something tells me it's not the least expensive option, but the politically best one.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6816 posts, RR: 34
Reply 11, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5280 times:

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 6):
Good reason for an A vs B war to be re-ignited on this web site.

Yeah, God knows it's been about, oh, 5 minutes, since the last A vs B thread and flame fest.


User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10038 posts, RR: 96
Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5113 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):
but something tells me it's not the least expensive option

Interesting - which do you think is the least expensive?

The article indicates that a lot of the decisions were based on expertise......


User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 21
Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5080 times:

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 8):
Well, with Honda built in Ohio for the last several years, and Dodge being manufactured in Canada, is it any wonder?

And Austria don't forget.....Dogde Minivans, Jeeps, and Right-Hand Drive Chrysler 300s for the UK market.

And your pretty Pontiac might have been made in Australia..

Localisation is a word with no meaning anymore.



Delete this User
User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5047 times:

Does this mean the die hard AvB people will have to have arguments with themselves now?

User currently offlineMD95 From Italy, joined Apr 2005, 104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5002 times:

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 8):
However, one thing is certain: No military aircraft for the US will ever be built outside of the USA.

Don't be so sure anymore. We are designing part of the JSF in Italy and a lot of foreigners are working here in LM Fort Worth.



dario
User currently offlineGlideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1617 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 4980 times:

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 4):
If Russia, India and China improve their aircraft manufacturing skills one day, maybe in 20 years you may see Airbus and Boeing merge. New players are more dynamic than the old... It's a matter of time where the East applies major pressure to the west.

A thought that has been repeated in my mind more and more...........



To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9643 posts, RR: 52
Reply 17, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 4965 times:

Quoting Astuteman (Thread starter):
Boeing view the use of such Airbus contractors as a guarantee of their capability.
Airbus view the Boeing contracts as an endorsement of its manufacturing skills.

I'm not quite sure what you mean there, but often times A and B along with the other B, E and L will go to whomever is best and cheapest at what they do. For example the company I work for pretty much makes every single APU found on any jet today simply because we are the best at what we do. I work on B's big project now, but do a lot of work with N-G's stuff and my job in the future could shift towards A. It all depends on what stage everyone is in development. Airplanes are a truly global business. If a French company is the best at making doors and can do it at a reasonable price, then of course everyone will go to them. There are a lot of parts on airplanes where there isn't any competition. One company has a good design and holds a monopoly on that part. This is a prime example of that. And with transportation as easy as it is nowadays, it should stay that way.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13210 posts, RR: 77
Reply 18, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4949 times:

'No miliitary aircraft for the US will ever be built outside of the USA.'

Er, where do you start with this?

Off the top of my head, Sherpa C-23, G-222, Caribou, That training/calibration version of the then BAe-125, T-3, if you include the Coast Guard; HH-65A Dauphin, That USCG version of the Falcon, CN-235.
These are not licenced built, they were imported.

OK, so no fast military jets?
Not quite, before the MDD/BAe AV-8B Harrier, the original AV-8A's were built by Hawkers at Kingston, UK.
Over 100 of them.


User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4673 times:

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 4):
If Russia, India and China improve their aircraft manufacturing skills one day, maybe in 20 years you may see Airbus and Boeing merge. New players are more dynamic than the old... It's a matter of time where the East applies major pressure to the west.

and that's probably exactly what will happen. Why will the Chinese and Russian aviation industries buy expensive A or B when their lower cost base aircraft facilities can do it at a fraction of the budget?

It's the Wal-Mart effect. You can't ignore their abilities to build or manufacture at such low cost. If China in particular decides to sink some of that $750 billion in US currency they hold into buying in expertise then they could easily outgun Airbus and Boeing together. Russian engine technology is where they could score big. Russian engines are starting to look like seriously good products again.

A Tu-204 built and financed by China could be an interesting product, or the smaller Tu-334 for regional work. And never say never...it could happen


User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2721 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4651 times:

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 8):
However, one thing is certain: No military aircraft for the US will ever be built outside of the USA.

What would life be without such certainties? Would you rate this the same certainty as Donald Rumsfeld not cross-dressing?



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineGlideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1617 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4274 times:

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 20):
What would life be without such certainties? Would you rate this the same certainty as Donald Rumsfeld not cross-dressing?

I'd rate it the same as John Roberts Cross-Dressing.  Smile



To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
User currently offlineWiggidy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 113 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3879 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 18):
OK, so no fast military jets?
Not quite, before the MDD/BAe AV-8B Harrier, the original AV-8A's were built by Hawkers at Kingston, UK.
Over 100 of them.

Damn you beat me to it  Smile. Also add the AS-350B for US border patrol. The USAF also had some B-57 Canberras, british designed not sure if they were a direct import or liscensed. Im sure theres a few more too.
-Wes


User currently offlineSabena332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3801 times:

Some people would be surprised when they would know how many people in the USA are working for Airbus, and how many people in Europe are working for Boeing!

Arguments like:

1. "Boeing is the best because I am American and I have to support our economy"

and

2. Airbus is the best because I am European and I have to support our economy"

would be (ACTUALLY ARE) completely useless, moronic, and stupid!

Airbus created jobs in the USA, Boeing created jobs in Europe....

... so I can really not understand why these utterly childish - and posted by armchair CEOs - A vs. B discussions come up every second day. Furthermore I can't understand those who are participating in an A vs. B discussion and make additionally an Europe vs. USA thread about it.

I can't believe that some people are so obsessed to trash either all what is European, or all what is American.

Patrick


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6485 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3619 times:

Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 23):
Some people would be surprised when they would know how many people in the USA are working for Airbus, and how many people in Europe are working for Boeing!

What you really mean to say is that, from one model to another, Airbus may choose supplier A, B, C, for a given part, and Boeing may choose from the same supplier pool for a similar part on their airliners. From one model to the other, that supplier (and its corresponding nationality) may vary. So in essence, Airbus and Boeing are using the same suppliers variously.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
25 Gigneil : Like the new Marine One? Sure, it will undergo final integration here. But it is designed and fabricated abroad. N
26 Trolley Dolley : Ha ha ha! I read in in an Australian aviation magazine that a US congressman has pushed through a law that will require the "place of manufacture" to
27 Ikramerica : Probably something from South America or Asia, assuming they could supply the item on spec. Considering airworthy doors are made all over the world f
28 BHMBAGLOCK : Not yet - maybe never, technically EADS not Airbus not that there is much difference. It will be built if they get the USAF tanker project. They are
29 Ikramerica : And Toyota and BMW and Mercedes and Nissan all build cars and/or trucks in the US, from sea to shining sea. VW used to in Pennsylvania, but no longer
30 Dougloid : Which means you work for Honeywell, in which case I agree with you, or you work for Hamilton Sunstrand ex Solar in which case I do not agree with you
31 GPHOTO : These were built by Martin, who also developed their own variations. Not sure if some of the early ones were built in the UK, or shipped over as a ki
32 Astuteman : I think that's a pretty fair comment, Ikramerica. As I say, the article indicated that Boeing saw a preferred expertise. Like you, I suspect it's the
33 Scbriml : Why not? Boeing already builds the wing-tip fences for the A380.
34 GDB : I think all US B-57 production was local, they might have got the odd UK one though, for evaluation if nothing else.
35 Dougloid : Don't forget the AV8B Harrier and the T-45....British designs all.
36 Post contains links Dougloid : Raises the question....with the success of such things, what does that do to the argument that the US labor force is overpriced/noncompetitive? And i
37 Astuteman : Ah, the Harrier - an absolute classic. Another masterpiece that's taken 40+ years to be superceded (by JSF, I presume..)
38 Post contains links RoseFlyer : Pretty good. But I stupidly typed APU when I meant RAT (Ram Air Turbine). Hamilton Sundstrand does make APUs for many jets (somewhere around 25-50% m
39 Terryb99 : Or more acurate, the 380 has a North American landing gear, as most work will be done in the Toronto area.
40 Dougloid : Far's I know they do....export some Honda vehicles to Japan...so I've heard... The import duty the US imposes is 2.5 per cent ad valorem on imported
41 Glacote : I believe the winglets mounted on A340 are manufactured by a sub-branch of Boeing. Yet another example.
42 Atmx2000 : Perhaps because the foreign automakers a) don't have a huge legacy of retired workers generous pensions and retirement benefits to pay for b) don't h
43 BHMBAGLOCK : All Mercedes M Class and R Class production is in Tuscaloosa, AL. Before the plant expanded there was some M Class production in Austria but this end
44 N328KF : Is this true? Would this be DH/Boeing Australia, or some other division, perhaps?
45 Eha : I thought they were built by HdH(Hawker De Havilland) and delivered to Airbus UK-Broughton (at least for the -500, -600 models).... E.
46 Robsawatsky : There are several reasons, but generally not existing tariffs: 1. Politics (i.e. way to avoid import tariffs being increased) 2. Low-cost labour, par
47 Astuteman : My greatest experience of US manufacturing costs is from working with General Dynamics Electric Boat in Conneticut on the US nuclear subs. At the ris
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