Kiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8435 posts, RR: 14 Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 7300 times:
looks very nice - just a shame that they try to pass it off as a "lie flat" bed which is clearly a flatout lie ( dreadful pun I know ) - so far as I know there are only three airlines with actual flat beds in business class BA,VS and NZ .
( as always please feel free to add to the list if you are better informed than I am and know of other airlines with true flat beds)
Please note that I am not specifically criticising AY - they are only the latest in a long list of airlines who seem to have difficulty understanding the phrase "lie flat" - as a former travel agent I can recall having a heated argument with an SQ rep after one of my clients returned , very pissed off , from an AKL-SIN-LHR return trip specifically booked on SQ because their promotional material stated "lie flat" only to find that of course it was angled and that they kept being woken up as they slid down the slope . I was actually told by the rep that ' of course "lie flat" doesn't mean that the bed is flat - if it was flat we would call it a "true flat bed" ' - you can imagine the fun I had explaining that to my client !
Anyway as I say , it looks like a great product and hope to try it some day - but shame on AY for joining the list of airlines with misleading promotional info.
Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
Scandinavian From Sweden, joined Sep 2000, 267 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 7272 times:
I know what you are talking about. SAS will also install new seats later this year, and guess what? No real lie flat seats, but as you described "flatout lie". That's the trend today...
Willyj From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 467 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 7029 times:
Kiwiandrew, South African Airways also has flat seats in business... in fact they were voted number one in the world by skytrax.
As far as lie-flat seats go, I think the wording is correct. The seat is flat (or very close to being 180 degrees) but is just at an angle. I've flown on several versions of these seats and while they are not truly flat beds, one is able to lie on their side or stomach quite comfortably. Yes, sliding can be a problem, but I find that if you don't fully extend the seat you don't slide as much - if at all. Most 3 class airlines don't want to offer a fully flat seat in Business when they offer one in First - British airways being the exception, but even then half of the seats face backwards.
Being a travel agent I think that it is your job to tell your clients what to expect onboard. Anyone can book a ticket online, but travel agents should provide a higher level of service and be able to warn their clients that lie-flat is not totally horizontal, etc. before the flight - especially when there are only a handful of truly flat business class seats in the world. Not judging you in any way, but I don't think the fault lies with the SQ rep in this particular case...
Killjoy From Finland, joined Dec 1999, 646 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 7009 times:
I agree that deceptive advertising is appalling anywhere, but I'm not quite sure I see the problem here. "Flat" doesn't strictly mean against the ground, but against a surface. I see no reason to assume that a "lie flat" seat would be completely horizontal, especially in a cramped environment.
Of course, if the term "lie flat" has traditionally referred to bed-style seats, whoever first extended it to cover angled seats is indeed guilty of misleading the customer, but by now everyone seems to be using it, so its definition would've changed.
Trvlr From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4430 posts, RR: 24 Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6912 times:
Shame the seats aren't horizontal. Still, the cabin update will provide more of an interesting option for oneworld flyers like myself who don't have that many choices in Europe.
A360 From Portugal, joined Jun 2005, 434 posts, RR: 9 Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6718 times:
Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 1): ( as always please feel free to add to the list if you are better informed than I am and know of other airlines with true flat beds)
I think that the new IB business class seats are also true flat beds.
Willyj From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 467 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6711 times:
Quoting A360 (Reply 6): I think that the new IB business class seats are also true flat beds.
Lp0815 From Singapore, joined Oct 2005, 216 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 6487 times:
There is a point in labeling these seats "lie-flat" seats in the sense that you actually stretch your body out fully.
Compare the position you sleep in to the one that you had to sleep in in the old cradle style seats:
Cradle seats: your body lies in an angled position
Lie-flat: your body stretches out completely, yet the seat stretches out fully though still angled compared to the floor of the a/c.
Granted: Lie-Flat is misleading as the common pax would expect his seat to be a bed parallel to the floor.
But compare the seats to the older ones; then the differentiation and the reason for the "lie-flat" label becomes clear.
Andz From South Africa, joined Feb 2004, 8298 posts, RR: 11 Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 6446 times:
The issue here is not if a seat is "lie flat" but "lie level". The seats are flat in that there is no bend or angle in the seat, but they are not level as SAA's are.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
Kiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8435 posts, RR: 14 Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6352 times:
Quoting Killjoy (Reply 4): I agree that deceptive advertising is appalling anywhere, but I'm not quite sure I see the problem here. "Flat" doesn't strictly mean against the ground, but against a surface. I see no reason to assume that a "lie flat" seat would be completely horizontal, especially in a cramped environment.
so by your definition a hill is "flat" so long as the gradient is straight - I certainly wouldn't want to go for a bike ride with you then
seriously though the question I think is not what A-netters expectations of "lie-flat" is - after all we are generally better informed than the average member of the travelling public , but what the ordinary consumers expectations are - trust me , having been a travel agent in an English speaking country the vast majority of the English speaking public take "lie-flat" to mean "horizontal" and of course they tend to blame the travel agent rather than the airline when that expectation is not met - if you dont believe me I challenge you to find 10 non-aviation people , preferably with English as a mother tongue , and ask them what they would expect when an airline claims to provide a lie-flat bed in business class
Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21029 posts, RR: 60 Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6305 times:
Quoting Lp0815 (Reply 8): Cradle seats: your body lies in an angled position
Not really. Very few airlines have/had cradle seats. BA had them. A cradle seat is like a recliner chair in that it RAISES the thigh while it reclines the back, creating a cradle that you naturally rest into. Since you are not fighting gravity with your clothes or your feet, you can relax your body. It is one of the most comfortable sleeping positions known, but few airlines had them.
You can't just add a footrest and a reclining back to a seat and have it be a cradle. You must also add a tilt...
For example: The CO 757 BF seat cradles a bit, the 767 does not at all, and the 777 seat does but only to a very mild back angle (not enough for sleep for most people), then it de-cradles by dropping the thigh lower and raising the butt, and attempts to slope-flat at 170 degrees, which isn't really comfortable.
Most C and old F products had a reclining back and a foot rest, but no tilt. But if the seat surface remains level, it is NOT a cradle. And you experience sliding just like a slope-flat, as gravity is not nullified by a foot rest. Slope-flat only makes this worse by tilting your pelvis the wrong direction...
Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 10): so by your definition a hill is "flat" so long as the gradient is straight - I certainly wouldn't want to go for a bike ride with you then
exactly. I hear that they've found a way to fit 1000 lie flat seats in the new A380. They just installed a lot of vertical surfaces and straps, and if you stand against them and strap yourself in, voila, you are "lying flat" baby!
I hate the slope flat concept, as I don't enjoy wedgies and my feet get sore supporting my body weight for hours.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Killjoy From Finland, joined Dec 1999, 646 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6154 times:
Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 10): so by your definition a hill is "flat" so long as the gradient is straight - I certainly wouldn't want to go for a bike ride with you then
Well, a hill is a protrusion in itself, so calling it flat would make no sense. But a lie flat seat *is* flat.
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 11): exactly. I hear that they've found a way to fit 1000 lie flat seats in the new A380. They just installed a lot of vertical surfaces and straps, and if you stand against them and strap yourself in, voila, you are "lying flat" baby!
You'd still be standing against a flat surface, though, so the problematic word would be "lie", not "flat".
Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 10): trust me , having been a travel agent in an English speaking country the vast majority of the English speaking public take "lie-flat" to mean "horizontal"
I can't argue with that. If people keep misunderstanding it, maybe it should be changed. I still wouldn't blame any single airline, however, since they'll need to call it the same thing everyone else does, or people will be even more confused.
Zeekiel From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6090 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 11): It is one of the most comfortable sleeping positions known, but few airlines had them.
Apart from sleeping in the horizontal position which is very comfortable or natural, the cradle or Z configuration of sleeping is bloody brilliant. I find that more comfortable than letting the bed into a "angled flat". Usually I will try and find a seat setting or manhandle the seat into a near cradle setting.
I think CX has a cradle setting on their J seats. Although I'm not entirely sure I got it right when the F/A was explaining it to me.
The AY uniforms look great as well and so do those Finnish girls.
FinnWings From Finland, joined Oct 2003, 640 posts, RR: 3 Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5339 times:
I tested the new AY seats yesterday and those were extremely comfortable. Lie-flat or not, but I would say it is definitely easier to sleep on those seats than my couch, even it is pure "lie-flat" indeed...
A360 From Portugal, joined Jun 2005, 434 posts, RR: 9 Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5081 times:
Quoting Willyj (Reply 7): No, Iberia's are also lie-flat.
Allow me to disagree on that. Iberia's new Business plus (new business class) seats are flat and horizontal.
Just check www.iberia.com.
Choose English in language (next to coutry) ---> Travel with us -->Seats --> Get to know new Iberia Business Plus ---> Your personal space -->More Space...then check the resting position.... Isn't that horizontal?!
Willyj From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 467 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5052 times:
Quoting A360 (Reply 15): Allow me to disagree on that. Iberia's new Business plus (new business class) seats are flat and horizontal.
Just check www.iberia.com.
Choose English in language (next to coutry) ---> Travel with us -->Seats --> Get to know new Iberia Business Plus ---> Your personal space -->More Space...then check the resting position.... Isn't that horizontal?!
I stand corrected. I thought they were at an angle but I'm glad to see they are not! For some reason Iberia looks more snug than the SAA seats. The space between rows doesn't look like they could be totally flat, but the diagram looks like it is, and flatseats.com confirms they are flat bed style seats. Also, Royal Jordanian has flat bed seats.
Willyj From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 467 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5007 times:
Actually, no. In the diagram it says that the space between seats is 152 centimeters - 60 inches. It also says the bed is 190 centimeters long (about 75 inches). Therefore the seat just can't be completely flat. It must be angled to be able to make space for the extra 15 inches of bed, right?
A360 From Portugal, joined Jun 2005, 434 posts, RR: 9 Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 4591 times:
Quoting Willyj (Reply 17): Actually, no. In the diagram it says that the space between seats is 152 centimeters - 60 inches. It also says the bed is 190 centimeters long (about 75 inches). Therefore the seat just can't be completely flat. It must be angled to be able to make space for the extra 15 inches of bed, right?
You have to remember that when in bed position, the bed have it's bottom part(where the feet lies) under the front seat upper part(where the head lies).
So the bed is bigger than the space between seats.
Kiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8435 posts, RR: 14 Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 4585 times:
Quoting A360 (Reply 20): Quoting Willyj (Reply 17):
Actually, no. In the diagram it says that the space between seats is 152 centimeters - 60 inches. It also says the bed is 190 centimeters long (about 75 inches). Therefore the seat just can't be completely flat. It must be angled to be able to make space for the extra 15 inches of bed, right?
You have to remember that when in bed position, the bed have it's bottom part(where the feet lies) under the front seat upper part(where the head lies).
So the bed is bigger than the space between seats.
So you are saying that the feet are lower than the head - in other words its NOT flat .
Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
Willyj From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 467 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 4566 times:
Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 21): So you are saying that the feet are lower than the head - in other words its NOT flat .
Thank you for that. Has anyone actually flown on the new seats? judging from the numbers Iberia provides, the bed is lie-flat, but judging from the diagrams, etc the bed is full flat. Personally I tend to believe the actual numbers...
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