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LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight  
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Posted (8 years 10 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6662 times:

The Director of Lufthansa Consulting, Rafael Von Heeremann, spent the day in Belo Horizonte International Airport - CNF to examine the possibility of LH to start operations on the route FRA-CNF.

He stated that the relocation of flights from PLU to CNF has boosted the position of CNF as a strategic airport in Brazil. According to his words, LH is expected to start flights to CNF already in 2005/6. [LH currently operates two daily FRA-GRU flights A346 and B747].

Rgs,

45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5922 posts, RR: 40
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6626 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
He stated that the relocation of flights from PLU to CNF has boosted the position of CNF as a strategic airport in Brazil. According to his words, LH is expected to start flights to CNF already in 2005/6. [LH currently operates two daily FRA-GRU flights A346 and B747].

Hi Hardiwv,

sounds really intresting! questin do you have any information on how is the plnd frequenzi and what kind of aircraft they would use? I can imagine A340-300.

regards
Avianca



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4002 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6477 times:

I heard the same but I find it unlikely to pan out.
The runway at CNF is not long enough to take off to Europe with a full load. CNF is 2700 ft above sea level requiring more runway than at GIG.
Also would LH serve CNF but not GIG?
If LH does start service to CNF, FRA-GIG-CNF or FRA-SSA-CNF are more likely. I don't have info on LH's long haul aircraft, but for a 767-300ER doing CNF-FRA, the plane will carry very little if any freight with all seats taken. I'd be surprised if the A340 take off performance is any better.


User currently offlineBrasuca From Brazil, joined Mar 2004, 717 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 1 day ago) and read 6330 times:

Hardi, Como vai??  Smile

well...
It's hard to believe CNF can be LH's alternative, because of proximity with GRU and GIG.

* This news comes simultaneously with VARIG's new flight to MUC. So, would LH run a three weekly to Brazil as well?!
* VARIG is not so strong in CNF to cope with onwards connections.
I've been told that Lufthansa flights to SCL are doing very bad. I myself experienced a very empty flight on their A346. It will be no surprise if they drop or reduce SCL service and send pax to SCL with VARIG instead (B772). Then, the A346 can be deployed to CNF!!!
* The only NE city, which have already had regular flight to FRA it's FOR, with VARIG. Hence FRA-FOR-CNF can be a possibility as well.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 2):
I'd be surprised if the A340 take off performance is any better.

You're right. A340-300 take off and climb rate are terrible!



Varig, Varig, Varig
User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 6284 times:

Not even TAP flies to Belo H. I would really wonder if LH begins CFN over all the potential new routes to China and India which look much more promising to me.

I hope that they will not kick SCL out. LH should bring back the onestop FRA-EZE-SCL.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11419 posts, RR: 59
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 6259 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Hello Hardi ! Welcome back !

I heard something about that on GRU, but i will come with some inside information from LH in Brazil:

Nowadays GRU operation is UNprofitable for LH. The A340-600 flight SCL-GRU-FRA (mainly the leg SCL-GRU) faces VERY low loads (yesterday the flight SCL-GRU arrive at GRU with o n l y 20 pax on board), the time of departure of both flight to FRA are not good, and LH is loosing Biz pax to RG flights (from GIG and GRU), which keeps ranked 1st and 2nd on profitability at RG network.
LH Brazil is trying to find a new base (the other alternative is going back to GIG) and probably LH could drop SCL (using RG code-share on RG8920 GRU-SCL as this flight could receive a leg GIG-GRU nowadays run as a domestic flight)
I expect they run CNF, but i have my doubts that CNF can fill a plane for a non stop flight as German investments on Minas Gerais are very low.
I can imagine LH trying to do the same as AF in Rio, a non stop flight allowing connections.

Hardi, LH is trying to see alternatives for the 3 flights (2 LH and 1 Swiss) from GRU. It`s excessive as per LH words. The comment is that, they loose thousands of US$ every day.

Regards,
Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineBrasuca From Brazil, joined Mar 2004, 717 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 6249 times:

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 4):
Not even TAP flies to Belo H.

It's likely to be all strategy of propaganda and marketing. This news was released by the company owner of the airport. And they need to promote CNF as they are taking measures to make the airport profitable and to see Belo Horizonte's thumbs up. Population is fiercely against them for relocating flights from downtown airport to CNF.
But good incentives are granted to airlines to fly to CNF. Who knows LH will grab this one.

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 4):
LH should bring back the onestop FRA-EZE-SCL.

Can you give reasons why?



Varig, Varig, Varig
User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 6233 times:

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 6):
Can you give reasons why?

Because it is a shame that an airline like LH doesn't fly nonstop to EZE anymore. Just simply as that.


User currently offlineBrasuca From Brazil, joined Mar 2004, 717 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 22 hours ago) and read 6191 times:

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 7):
Because it is a shame that an airline like LH doesn't fly nonstop to EZE anymore. Just simply as that.

Yes, so simple to be practical!

Airlines are no longer interested in dots in the map or pride, but profitability. If SCL is unprofitable for LH, it will be dropped, unfortunately. And we can highly excpet Lufthansa will whether reduce or drop Santiago de Chile next year. Wait and see.

- Firstly, Lufthansa keeps high loads in their EZE flights. Adding a stop-over in GRU did not hurt their yields.
- Secondly, SCL will remain as a destination with a intermediate stop-over, be it in GRU or EZE. No difference for those who fly it.
- Thirdly, Star Alliance is more important for LH than you imagine and RG-LH need each other down here. Strengthening flights to Star Hubs is one target.

So, what's your point? LH should fly to unprofitable destinations because they shall maintain pride of being Lufthansa?



Varig, Varig, Varig
User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 22 hours ago) and read 6181 times:

@Brasuca:

Don't over-interprete me. I just wish that LH can keep their destination SCL and that EZE comes back as nonstop. There are strong ties between Argentine and Germany and it was their longest nonstop route. So I wish that they can keep it.
AF seems to be much more succesfull in EZE and SCL. They fly daily CDG-EZE-SCL and will reintroduce 3 weekly nonstops to SCL for the northern winter season again.
IB is another question in this context, but LH should try to make possible what AF can do to every market where each one doesn't have a special advantage like to the former colonies etc.


User currently offlineBrasuca From Brazil, joined Mar 2004, 717 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 22 hours ago) and read 6161 times:

JoFMO,
It's ok. So it's just a wish. I too wish EZE and SCL had their own non-stop flight, but it's not feasible. As LipeGIG mentioned, that in October 3, LH's load in SCL-GRU was only 8% (yes, eight per cent!). So it's very unlikely they will continue flying to SCL.

Warte geduldig, changes will be made in Lufthansa and SWISS's routes to Brazil - Chile - Argentina, though I believe LH FRA-GRU-EZE will go on.



Varig, Varig, Varig
User currently offlineRCS763AV From Colombia, joined Jun 2004, 4393 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 15 hours ago) and read 5959 times:

LH will first start destinations such as XMN, LIM or BOG rather then going to Belo Horizonte. Pure propaganda fro the aiport owners that is.


Les escribo desde el frío de mi verde altiplano.
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 4680 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 14 hours ago) and read 5855 times:

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 3):
A340-300 take off and climb rate are terrible!

Actually only the climb is a bit slow, but for takeoff, have a look at the pics of my posts in the following disscussion :
Min Runway Take Off Lengths For A330,A340,777,787 (by EI321 Sep 3 2005 in Tech Ops)



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4002 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 12 hours ago) and read 5761 times:

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 11):
LH will first start destinations such as XMN, LIM or BOG rather then going to Belo Horizonte. Pure propaganda fro the aiport owners that is.

Adding a short leg to CNF like GRU-CNF is a lot cheaper than flying FRA-BOG.

The mid-size towns in South and SE Brazil (Belo, Curitiba, Porto Alegre) have reasonably large middle classes and diversified economy that may sustain limited international service. NE towns (Salvador, Recife, Fortaleza) have smaller middle classes and less diversified economy but can sustain international service due to tourism.

If FRA-GRU-SCL is getting only 20 pax on the SCL leg, FRA-GRU-CNF will do a lot better.


User currently offlineRafabozzolla From Brazil, joined Apr 2000, 1211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 11 hours ago) and read 5693 times:

Hi,

I myself am from BHZ and I don´t see the point of a CNF-GRU-FRA flight, why not take RG instead and change planes in GRU, and not only to FRA but anywhere else in Europe where RG flies.

About the non-stop... hummm don´t know if it would work. As mentioned RG´s presence is very mild at CNF, the only usable connections would be BSB, VIX, and SSA, but I am not even sure if the schedules allow for that.

Anyway, unlikely but great if it happened.


User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4002 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 9 hours ago) and read 5562 times:

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 14):
I myself am from BHZ and I don´t see the point of a CNF-GRU-FRA flight, why not take RG instead and change planes in GRU, and not only to FRA but anywhere else in Europe where RG flies.

I've sided with the "I believe when I see it" too. But GRU-CNF lacks adequate capacity and a lot of the international connecting traffic spills over to CGH. Also, while RG and LH are partners, LH would not hesitate to make a move to take away traffic from RG.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 9 hours ago) and read 5511 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 15):
But GRU-CNF lacks adequate capacity and a lot of the international connecting traffic spills over to CGH. Also, while RG and LH are partners, LH would not hesitate to make a move to take away traffic from RG.

Agree with this statement. Also, LH will have to react to AF/KL ever-increasing presence in the Brazilian market. Maybe a flight FRA-GIG-CNF could be initiated by LH.

There are rumours AF is investigating other markets in Brazil, and REC was mentioned as a possible future new destination after GRU is consolidated to 3 daily AF/KL flights (i.e. end-2006).

Also, LH will have to factor in RG new flight GRU-MUC. I dont expect LH just to watch and see without any reaction.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 11):
LH will first start destinations such as XMN, LIM or BOG rather then going to Belo Horizonte. Pure propaganda fro the aiport owners that is.

What I mentioned above was a statement by the head of LH Consultancy and was no propaganda.

Rgs,


User currently offlineBrasuca From Brazil, joined Mar 2004, 717 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 8 hours ago) and read 5430 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 12):
Actually only the climb is a bit slow, but for takeoff, have a look at the pics of my posts in the following disscussion

Thanks for the info

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 13):
The mid-size towns in South and SE Brazil (Belo, Curitiba, Porto Alegre) have reasonably large middle classes and diversified economy that may sustain limited international service.

In addition, one intercontinental flight from CNF would be a big propaganda by itself inside Belo Horizonte, thus very promising. Belo Horizonte is the third largest Brazilian city, after all.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 16):
What I mentioned above was a statement by the head of LH Consultancy and was no propaganda.

And this statement itself is used as propaganda from INFRAERO, to make CNF image look better.



Varig, Varig, Varig
User currently offlineNeo From Brazil, joined Jan 2001, 671 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 6 hours ago) and read 4809 times:

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 17):
Belo Horizonte is the third largest Brazilian city, after all.

Which does not necessarily means is the 3rd largest airport/gateway in Brazil.

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 17):
And this statement itself is used as propaganda from INFRAERO, to make CNF image look better.

I agree. Used as pure propaganda for CNF!!!

I don't LH will step in CNF anytime soon with its on aircraft, specially with a nonstop service. There are just too many other better options out there.

Rgs,

Neo


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5922 posts, RR: 40
Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 6 hours ago) and read 4695 times:

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 10):
Warte geduldig, changes will be made in Lufthansa and SWISS's routes to Brazil - Chile - Argentina, though I believe LH FRA-GRU-EZE will go on.

well I do not belive that LH will drop SCL as served destination, as SCL is a very traditional route for LH, even if they have problems in the moment.

I can imagine that they will re-schedule the EZE and SCL flights from GRU to give the Swiss pax arriving from ZRH Hub the oportunity to transfer on the flights. So Swiss would be back in EZE and SCL ( I am not sure if they ever did served SCL).

Who knows maybe they are also planing a additional flight from MUC to GRU to feeder the EZE and SCL flights.

I think LH has currently problems on the germany-chile market because carriers from north-america (AA,DL,AC) are in the moment very agressive on that market.

regards
Avianca



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineBrasuca From Brazil, joined Mar 2004, 717 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 5 hours ago) and read 4636 times:

Quoting Neo (Reply 18):
Which does not necessarily means is the 3rd largest airport/gateway in Brazil.

Right! It is far from ranking as the third gateway or most important airport in Brazil, but CNF isn't performing the needs of Belo Horizonte either nowadays, be it big or not.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 19):
I think LH has currently problems on the germany-chile market because carriers from north-america (AA,DL,AC) are in the moment very agressive on that market.

Are AA, DL and AC currently offering flights from Germany to Chile via North America or are you having serious troubles with Geography?



Varig, Varig, Varig
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5922 posts, RR: 40
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 5 hours ago) and read 4595 times:

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 20):
Are AA, DL and AC currently offering flights from Germany to Chile via North America or are you having serious troubles with Geography?

no I have no problems with my Geography... of course they are offering fares via there north american hubs or did you thought via the antarctic?



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineLegacy135 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1052 posts, RR: 26
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 5 hours ago) and read 4567 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 13):
Adding a short leg to CNF like GRU-CNF is a lot cheaper than flying FRA-BOG

Yep....but adding the hope CCS-BOG isn't that bad either  Wink

Quoting Avianca (Reply 19):
So Swiss would be back in EZE and SCL ( I am not sure if they ever did served SCL).

Swissair did SCL for many years as they also did EZE, GIG and for a time also CCS. I'am not sure if Swiss Intl Air Lines ever went down to EZE and over to SCL. They did GIG but dropped it as well. It's amazing, all flights over the South Atlantic are consequently sold out, also in the more expensive classes and they dropped all those flights.

I could see a certain logic in a Germany - GRU - CNF flight. Greater São Paulo hosts the major part of Brazils industry. In Belo Horizonte is lots of industry as well. For companies it's simpler to recruite specialised professionals in BH than in many other places of the country as many graduate in Minas. Close to the airport, Lagoa Santa and arround setteled many international companies lately.
On the other hand a flight Germany - SSA - CNF wouldn't make that much sense for me: Salvador and the state of Bahia is a lovely tourist region, but not that kind of business people may travel for to BH. So it asks more for a flight to SSA done by LH subsidary Condor, as from Spain we don't see IB there either but AirEurope.


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5922 posts, RR: 40
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 5 hours ago) and read 4529 times:

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 22):
Yep....but adding the hope CCS-BOG isn't that bad either

oh yes they could upgrade to a B747-400 daily... and go FRA-CCS-BOG-CCS-FRA. They did the routing for years.

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 22):
I'am not sure if Swiss Intl Air Lines ever went down to EZE and over to SC

yes Swiss went down to EZE but not to SCL as per my information. I think they quit the EZE leg 1 or 2 years ago. I can remember because I had often cargo from Fra via ZRH to EZE.

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 22):
So it asks more for a flight to SSA done by LH subsidary Condor

isnt Condor not already operating the route, or will start the flight in November? At least I have seen often very good fares for 250Euo FRA-SSA-FRA including Taxes...

regards
Avianca



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineBrasuca From Brazil, joined Mar 2004, 717 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (8 years 10 months 5 hours ago) and read 4509 times:

.
If Lufthansa decides reducing SCL to 3~4x weekly, then they shall add CNF instead, 3~4x weekly to test the market. It's quite simple and with no major changes.


However, if LH wants to increase capacity to both Brazil and EZE, then a totally new configuration shall take place.


Reasons why Lufthansa may fly to Belo Horizonte:

  • As a result of flights arrangement, because of bad performance in SCL.
  • If SCL is axed, then layover in CNF is way cheaper than in GRU.
  • To increase capacity to Brazil, as VARIG announced their third flight to Germany.
  • CNF is a totally new market: the third largest Brazilian city and with no intercontinental flight, plus with an industrial park surrounding the airport, which can help with Cargo.
  • CNF airport shall subsidize a considerable amount of operating cost of an international airline, by lower taxation.
  • São Paulo (and relatively Rio de Janeiro) is (are) already well served by RG-LH and new cities shall be planned.
  • Last year, when Lufthansa announced changes in their flights to GRU, EZE, GIG and SCL routes, they mentioned one deadline at the end of this year to decide if the flights will continue or not like this. And now, at the end of the year, Lufthansa “coincidentally” visits CNF airport.


Reasons why Lufthansa might not fly to Belo Horizonte:

  • The closeness to GRU and GIG may not be one feasible option and ranks as one big hindrance in CNF for all airlines.
  • Very poor onwards connections from CNF, if they do rely on O&D at CNF.
  • With no flights arrengement, it's totally untenable to fly non-stop (they haven't stated anything whether it will be non-stop or not).



Varig, Varig, Varig
25 Avianca : they will start the 3th of November... regards
26 Hardiwv : I dont think LX will ever land in SCL and or EZE again. The only remaining LX destination in Latin America is GRU, operated 5 x week A343. Indeed, bu
27 Avianca : as mentioned of course not direclty with Swiss airplanes... the passengers could connect on the LH flights from GRU to EZE and SCL. SCL could be but
28 Hardiwv : Most of the flight is now occupied with pax to GRU. EZE gets no more than 40% load. Rgs,
29 Avianca : look the booking classes FRA-EZE ____________________________ Lufthansa German Flight: 502 Departs Frankfurt Am Main (FRA) November 1 9:40 pm Arrives
30 Hardiwv : Avianca, the above loads are mainly for GRU because EZE is sold on the GRU route. LH system sells EZE and GRU together. EZE, in excellent days, gets
31 Avianca : yes you are correct well I would say 40% loads is reall good, they could run the EZE flight without a problem nonstop with an A340-300 and get it ful
32 S.P.A.S. : Avianca, Swiss never flew to SCL. The SCL-GRU-SCL was dropped during the Swissair times. I used to work for the company (SWR) back then and loads were
33 Post contains images Incitatus : I don't usually go after people's language skills, but please, propaganda in English is very different from propaganda in Portuguese. Propaganda has
34 Avianca : Also LH could make a good amount of money regarding Cargo. The rates from Germany(europe) - CNF are very high over € 2,50 + Surcharges per kg, compa
35 LipeGIG : Agree that GRU-FRA is profitable, but loads on GRU-SCL (13 pax today!) and GRU-EZE (72 pax), corrupts profits on FRA-GRU leg. I imagine that LH could
36 LipeGIG : Don't forget Arcelor. I agree with a CNF-GIG-FRA flight as LH keeps a very strong base of customers at Rio, the RG flight GIG-FRA all the days face o
37 Post contains images PPVRA : Very good point. With Varig in the current financial conditions, Star has a very shaky leg in South America. AF is the only other european carrier th
38 Incitatus : It's not only those run-of-the-mill RG destinations such as MXP and CDG. CNF-FRA can open up 1-stops to even China and Japan, which is something AA w
39 Hardiwv : Only on excellent days. Average loads to EZE is only 20% and in most days even less. However, I do agree that LH could operate FRA-EZE A343 nonstop (
40 Post contains images LipeGIG : Hardi, i will wait for your NEV trip report ! Concerning to AF, makes no sense the efforts they are expending to start the code-share agreement with
41 Hardiwv : I got so disapointed with AF NEV that I lost I my motivation for a trip report...I can only tell you one thing: I will do my best to avoid AF in the
42 LipeGIG : Wow... now i'm concerned with my World Cup Trip! Loads are about 50 to 60% during week days, 85 to 100% on fridays and saturdays and about 70% on sun
43 TP727 : I strongly doubt there is a market for a nonstop CNF-FRA flight, maybe if it´s just once or twice a week. A few airlines have tried to fly long dista
44 Hardiwv : Indeed, you should. AF is horrible...the treatment they give to top-tier pax in GIG is well below average. AF's GIG ground staff has to learn good ma
45 A342 : I agree, 3000 meters is certainly enough.
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