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Changes To Uk Fifth Freedom Rights  
User currently offlineBY188B From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 704 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3720 times:

BRITAIN is to open up on what is traditionally known in airline terms as “fifth freedoms”. In other words, overseas airlines, subject to approval in each case, will be able to pick up and drop off passengers en-route in the UK. This will be of particular value for regional airports, an example being American Airlines’ new Newcastle service from New York, which could be extended to a continental point, the airline able to sell the mainland Europe – Newcastle sector on its own merits. For practical purposes it will not make that much difference, as EU member airlines have this right in any event, and the North Atlantic carriers such as Air India and Kuwait have flown to New York from Heathrow for years. Where there might be real interest is from airlines such as Qatar, Emirates, Qantas and Singapore who might want to establish flights in North America via say Birmingham. Traffic rights in Canada and the US would have to be permitted. The British government says the new ruling is consistent with the UK's general approach towards liberalising its bilateral air services agreements. But each application will have to be approved! http://www.dft.gov.uk top

Source: ABTN travel news http://www.abtn.co.uk/

So does this mean that airlines such as EK will intoduce new sevices such as DXB-GLA-JFK or DXB-MAN-YYZ for example?

[Edited 2005-10-05 15:21:50]


next flights : BD LHR-TXL J, FR SXF-STN Y, SN BRU-LHR Y, MA LHR-BUD Y, BA BUD-LHR J, BA LCY-SNN-JFK J, BA JFK-LHR J, BA
17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineBigOrange From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2362 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3591 times:

But let a US Airline try for 5th freedom rights from the UK to Europe and see how quickly they get rejected!

This is the major issue with the Bermuda II agreement for the last 20 or so years!


User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3410 times:

Why should Germany give any US carrier traffic rights between Britain and Germany as long as no german carrier gets rights between Pennsylvania and Texas?

Does this new roule also include LHR?


User currently offlineTpaewr From United States of America, joined May 2001, 450 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3372 times:

Perhaps since since Texas and Pennsylvania don't hold seats at the U.N. nor have their own armies and navies. In fact unlike the U.K. and Germany , Texas and Pennsylvania use the same currency.

User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3343 times:

Quoting Tpaewr (Reply 3):
Perhaps since since Texas and Pennsylvania don't hold seats at the U.N. nor have their own armies and navies. In fact unlike the U.K. and Germany , Texas and Pennsylvania use the same currency.

Schengen. Go look it up.


User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3287 times:

Europe has a singel aviation market as has the USA. Nobody should get 5th freedom rights inside the EU who doesn't give our carriers the rights in their aviation market.

Simple as that.


User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3261 times:

Schengen or no Schengen,
The members of the European Union are sovereign nations.

When The US entered Iraq; the US States did not have a choice to abstain from sending troops. All states were, and still are required to join in the effort.
Conversely,
Spain, Netherlands, Poland, Italy, UK, etc chose to join the coalition.
Germany, France chose not to.
That is their right as independent nations.

The US Civil War of the 19th Century set the precedent for the years and decades to follow in how the US system of government would operate.

France and the Netherlands refusal to ratify the constitution is a present-day parallel to this evolution process churning within the EU....thankfully it has a been a bloodless row, unlike our most painful experience at "Keeping the Union together" (By the way, it wasn't about Slavery)

As yet, the EU does not function as one central body.

The EU and USA are two completely different political models.
The EU is not the "United States of Europe"....while this may be the ultimate goal, it is not the way things are today.
Until such time, comparing the United Kingdom and Germany to Pennsylvania and Texas is like comparing apples and dog turds.

So for now, Fifth-Freedom flights from the US have no legal right for landing within the borders of the nation. Beyond those borders is another story, but for now, until the EU system evolves further, the way it is, is the way it is.



Delete this User
User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3252 times:

Quoting BigOrange (Reply 1):
But let a US Airline try for 5th freedom rights from the UK to Europe and see how quickly they get rejected!

Nope, try again.

Bermuda Two is the deal which covers operations into and out of LHR.

PK is one airline which has fifth freedom rights from a UK airport to the USA and Pakistan. US airlines operating into airports other than LHR could easily apply for rights and get them. Just as some south american airlines can offer tickets within the EU, and Singapore Airlines can offer tickets for ZRH-MAN twice a week.

If AA applied for rights on its Gatwick operations or up at MAN then they would not be restrained. Same with DL or US, or any other operator doing services which do not use LHR.


User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3202 times:

Are we talking about aviation or foreign policies?

In terms of aviation the EU and the USA are of the same kind. Both are single aviation markets. The market regulation is fully equal. You might say that some countries in Europe still have border contrals, but that doesn't change the layout of the market.

Therefore I am not willing to give any rights to countries don't give us the same rights.


User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8488 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3153 times:
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Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 4):

Schengen. Go look it up.

sorry WhiteHatter - the UK is not actually in Schengen - however I do agree that since the EU is in theory a single market rights between the UK and the rest of the EU are really cabotage rather than 5th freedom- and as you said no EU carrier is going to get cabotage rights within the US - so why should US carriers get them within the EU



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineRdwootty From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 901 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3139 times:

I am excited at the prospect of more services from BHX as the airlines can link with a european sector to and from BHX giving a midday outward and afternoon return..
Lets see>
CO Houston-Birmingham-Aberdeen
AA Dallas-Birmingham-Copenhagen
DL Atlanta-Birmingham-Munich
EK Dubai-Birmingham-Chicago
SK Oslo-Birmingham-Boston
NW MSP(cant spell minneapolis)-Birmingham-Vienna
and lost more

What a great opportunity for us all to increase travel opportunities


User currently offlineMainMAN From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 2086 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3143 times:

Quoting BY188B (Thread starter):
So does this mean that airlines such as EK will intoduce new sevices such as DXB-GLA-JFK or DXB-MAN-YYZ for example?

(Politics aside).......potentially they could, yes. The Manchester Airport Group's head of government and industry affairs, Jonathan Bailey, said that this wouldn't necessarily open the floodgates to more services, but that they were expecting 'several' new services. He used Air China MAN-ARN-PEK as an example of this.

It was also reported in the Travel Trade Gazette that Malaysian had initially wanted to operate their JFK services through MAN, but opted for ARN instead, prior to this change of policy.

What I'd specifically like to see happening is, for example, a joint year-round LH/AC/BD (!) service between DUS-MAN-YYZ. There must be loads of possibilities like this.


User currently offlineEK156 From United Arab Emirates, joined May 2005, 765 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2955 times:

Quoting BY188B (Thread starter):
So does this mean that airlines such as EK will intoduce new sevices such as DXB-GLA-JFK or DXB-MAN-YYZ for example?

I think if this law passes, EK will jump at the opportunity. They might get LGW as well, but I don't think they would get LHR. But they would definitely go for BHX, MAN and GLA. This would make UK a regional hub like SIN for EK. Imagine the prospects!!!

Also QR would jump at the opportunity as well as EY = Etihad who are already getting 5th Freedom on their new route from Abu Dhabi to Toronto via Brussels!!!


User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24811 posts, RR: 56
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2887 times:

CO could use this to fly IAH-MAN-ABZ using a 767-200ER and fill all the front end from ABZ  Wink


When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineMainMAN From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 2086 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2892 times:

Quoting Rdwootty (Reply 10):
NW MSP(cant spell minneapolis)-Birmingham-Vienna

Correct!!

I really think that the BHX could support more services to North America....Chicago especially. Look at how CO have tapped into the demand from BHX, and how fast they've grown. And EK too.

bmi obviously don't agree with me, but if they had wanted to make some money and gain loads of credibility, they could have started BHX-ORD and BHX-MCO before someone else invariably will. (I think I might have said this before once or twice)

Quoting EK156 (Reply 12):
Also QR would jump at the opportunity as well as EY = Etihad who are already getting 5th Freedom on their new route from Abu Dhabi to Toronto via Brussels!!!

It all sounds good to me.....EK from MAN to LAX....?!


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21415 posts, RR: 60
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2792 times:

So, are all the gung ho germans clamoring to let BA fly HAMBURG-MUNICH? Are the french ready for EK PARIS-NICE?

That's just Texas to Pennsylvania, right?



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineNetworkDoc From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 77 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2772 times:

Whatever your political stance on this, fifth freedom flights have overall *not* been found to be that greatly competitively effective. Please see the source below for scientific evidence (I cannot provide a link as this journal is subscription-only, but if you have an Athens logon, you can probably access it):

Mathieu Weber and John Dinwoodie (2000) Fifth freedoms and airline alliances. The role of fifth freedom traffic in an understanding of airline alliances, Journal of Air Transport Management, Volume 6, Issue 1 , Pages 51-60.

Therefore, I am not getting too excited about all this for now. The real test will come once (if!) the EU and the US manage to negotiate the much talked about Common Transatlantic Aviation Area. (Looking at this thread, I can't wait for the thread on the CTAA if agreed/ in negotiation!  fight  )



Flown: AB/BA/BD/BI/CX/DI/DL/KE/KL/LH/LT/LX/MH/NW/OZ/PR/QF/SN/SQ/TW/UA/VS/5J.
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5551 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2744 times:

Quoting BigOrange (Reply 1):
But let a US Airline try for 5th freedom rights from the UK to Europe and see how quickly they get rejected!

This is the major issue with the Bermuda II agreement for the last 20 or so years!

Crap! BII give very extensive fifth freedom right to US carriers from the UK and UK carriers from the US. For years PA & TW operated between the UK & European cities and BA operated transPacific services from LAX, SFO & HNL.

LHR access is the BII sticking point! I doubt this change will effect US carriers much.

Quoting BY188B (Thread starter):
Where there might be real interest is from airlines such as Qatar, Emirates, Qantas and Singapore who might want to establish flights in North America via say Birmingham

QF and maybe SQ have had these rights for years. QF have had full 5th freedom rights across the Atlantic since the 1950s


Gemuser



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