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Ryanair Accident Question......  
User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2940 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3731 times:

http://www.aaiu.ie/AAIUviewitem.asp?id=6946&lang=ENG&loc=1652

According to the report the First Officer had only 700 total while operating the aircraft. To me being assigned to the 737 with that few hours is a little strange. Is this common practice in Europe? Isn't it unsafe having a relatively inexperienced FO handling such a large aircraft?


short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMika From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 2881 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3545 times:

I did not know about that incident..but i don't know if it is as much about the FO being inexperienced as it is about how poor judgement they showed not to inspect the AC properly when they landed. Flying at 270kts with flaps partially extended and gear down sounds very extreme to me, and landing at a speed of 180 knots is surely not normal. I'm just glad that they didn't run out of Runway..if the weatherconditions were worse god know how this would have ended.

User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8169 posts, RR: 54
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3480 times:

Makes all our adventures on Microsoft FS look pro by comparison - "sure it's OK to fly the last five miles of the approach at 100 feet!" "Sure it's OK to be doing 270 knots on final!"


fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4626 posts, RR: 77
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3369 times:
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Never mind the F/O's lightish experience. What counts, as the report rightly stresses is the quality of training, especially CRM.
And on this aspect, the captain is the culprit. His attittude was verging on the outright criminal by not reporting the flight incidents and the busting of most of the airplane's limits. Those return passengers were lucky the 737 is such a sturdy plane.



Contrail designer
User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3233 times:

Whenever i see a Ryanair plane depart, I often wonder if their is some poor, brain dead stewardess sat in the toilet in order to squeeze in another passenger.

That incident remains my favourite Ryanair incident and the most incredible but true story!


User currently offlineMhodgson From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2002, 5047 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3198 times:

Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter):
According to the report the First Officer had only 700 total while operating the aircraft. To me being assigned to the 737 with that few hours is a little strange. Is this common practice in Europe? Isn't it unsafe having a relatively inexperienced FO handling such a large aircraft?

Nope - several airlines take on aviation graduates from schools such as Oxford aviation training and Cabair with frozen ATPLs. The quality of training at the establishments is second-to-none, and even airlines like BA and BD take on the graduates.



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User currently offlineShamrocka330 From Ireland, joined Sep 2005, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3096 times:

I see alot of Ryanair aircraft come and go at Dublin Airport each time I go there... I'm not saying that Ryanair pilots are dangerous, for from it, I just feel that when you compare Ryanair aircraft to the other aircraft that are landing, taking off and taxiing, they appear to be more aggressive.

Is this because of the pressure that is placed upon the pilots to keep to the schedule? Most extreme landings I've seen involve Ryanair aircraft, the fastest aircraft I've seen taxiing are Ryanair, pilots actually don't hide the fact they are pissed off when asked to hold in a queue or on one occasion when asked to complete a go around - heard on ATC radio.

Do the pilots still get bonus payments for early arrivals etc?



aka thebigjd (member since Sept 2001)
User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2940 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2905 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 3):
What counts, as the report rightly stresses is the quality of training, especially CRM.

That's not going to entirely help. Any pilot with only a few hundred hours in a heavy commercial aircraft will be afraid to question the actions of his more senior experienced captain. Not to mention Ryanair's management is despised by pilots all over Europe because of their fear and intimidation tactics



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7643 posts, RR: 35
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2882 times:

Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter):
According to the report the First Officer had only 700 total while operating the aircraft. To me being assigned to the 737 with that few hours is a little strange. Is this common practice in Europe? Isn't it unsafe having a relatively inexperienced FO handling such a large aircraft?

That's normal in Europe and other countries. The training in Germany as example for your CPL and IFR ratings requires 300 hours of groundschool and several written exams. The flight training requirments are quite similar to those in the US or Canada.

The fact that one can fly a B737 or A320 with just a few hundred hours of training shocks many North Americans because they have this misbelief that the more hours one has the better of a pilot one is. It's more the quality and not quantity that matters.



A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2940 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2870 times:

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 8):
It's more the quality and not quantity that matters.

So you're saying training in Europe is better than over here ?



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2940 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2835 times:

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 8):
That's normal in Europe and other countries. The training in Germany as example for your CPL and IFR ratings requires 300 hours of groundschool and several written exams. The flight training requirments are quite similar to those in the US or Canada.

I have heard that because most european countries are smaller and thus have less domestic flights a pilots theoretically can advance to international routes and bigger aircraft faster then here. Also consider the effect of high speed trains on Europe's short haul network. Is this true?



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7643 posts, RR: 35
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2833 times:

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 9):
So you're saying training in Europe is better than over here ?

Both have their advantages and disadvantages. I do find the training in Canada (I can't say anything about US, but I'm sure it's quite similar) is very good, depending on the school one attends and which instructors one gets. However, the training in Germany (as an example) is much more in depth, which can also have it's downside such as spending 2 hours on learning the circutry of your headphones just in case they stop working inflight (I'm not kidding you on that one either).

Don't forget that once out of flight school and you are picked up by an airline, you still receive more training on specific aircraft, CRM training and etc. I personaly don't see why one needs 1000 hours plus to be allowed to fly a 737 type aircraft, 300 is more then enough. I'd rather have someone sitting beside someone with experience, to learn more, then have him go out by himself in a bush plane or as a flight instructor teaching his bad habits on to others just to build their hours and not necessarily experience. It's all on how one views things I guess.

Just a side note, an instructor once told me that your commercial licence is your licence to learn, and a professional pilot never stops learning.



A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2940 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2822 times:

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 11):
Just a side note, an instructor once told me that your commercial licence is your licence to learn, and a professional pilot never stops learning.

Very True. I guess because of the rapid growth of airlines and the pilot shortage they have no choice. Now I know the LCC's do this like EasyJet or Ryanair, but do the majors like Lufthansa or British Airways employ pilots just finished from their ab-initio programs or do they require experience?



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7643 posts, RR: 35
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2819 times:

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 10):
I have heard that because most european countries are smaller and thus have less domestic flights a pilots theoretically can advance to international routes and bigger aircraft faster then here. Also consider the effect of high speed trains on Europe's short haul network. Is this true?

I can't say if it's true or not. But let's use LH as an example. When one completes the initial training in Arizona, you move on to Bremen and receive more advanced training. After completion of that, you'll usually be assigned an aircraft type (737 or 320) and train for that and the whole process takes only about 2 years and the average graduate is under the age of 25. As far as domestic routes go, don't forget that flights within the EU are pretty well domestic (i.e.: Germany to Spain). I think that the reason why one in Europe can advance more quickly is because of the many short sectors one files. I've heard that in Asia it can take an F/O up to 10 years to move up to Captain because most flights are not under 3 hours of duration.



A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9210 posts, RR: 76
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2792 times:

Not that uncommon in Asia either, cadets start flying 777's with SQ at 200 hours.


We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7643 posts, RR: 35
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2789 times:

I just wanted to also say that if one does consider flight training in Europe, it can get very frustrating at times with all the bureaucracy and regulations.


A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlineGofly From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2004, 1727 posts, RR: 38
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2566 times:
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Back to the incident,

I believe the Captain was having marital problems at the time, and was severely depressed. He probably shouldn't have been working in his state, but it's too late to be saying that now. Now whatever may have happened at FR in the past, this was the Captain's error.

There is a good thread on PPRuNe, I'd post the link if I was allowed, but it is easy enough to find.

Imagine if it had happened at BD, I'd hate the landings to be bumpy for your Granny Orion.  Wink Big grin

-Gofly  Smile



Living the high life on my ex-Airliners.net Moderator pension...
User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2535 times:

My granny wouldnt be seen dead on Ryanair!

User currently offlineGofly From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2004, 1727 posts, RR: 38
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2520 times:
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Quoting Orion737 (Reply 17):
My granny wouldnt be seen dead on Ryanair!

I suspected as much. But you didn't really read the statement.  Wink

-Gofly  Smile



Living the high life on my ex-Airliners.net Moderator pension...
User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2506 times:

Leave me granny alone everyone. She is a formidable woman, not exactly a battleaxe but a bit of a matriarch. I reckon some of you guys would be scared of her, if she were to get in one of her strops Big grin

User currently offlineMhodgson From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2002, 5047 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2451 times:

I'm sure she can be placated by a cup of tea - keep a Thermos handy at all times  Silly


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User currently offlineGofly From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2004, 1727 posts, RR: 38
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2429 times:
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Quoting Mhodgson (Reply 20):
I'm sure she can be placated by a cup of tea - keep a Thermos handy at all times

+ A biscuit gets you bonus points..... Big grin

-Gofly



Living the high life on my ex-Airliners.net Moderator pension...
User currently offlineSevenair From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 1728 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2349 times:

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 9):
So you're saying training in Europe is better than over here ?

Remember, our JAR first officers may not have that many hours, but they have ATPLs which are more comprehensive and in depth than any training that a US pilot goes through for a 'new hire'. And, also, the FO would have been supervised by a captain. SO comparing a similar low hour JAR pilot to an FAA pilot, I know which plane Id rather be a pax on!


User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19244 posts, RR: 52
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2341 times:

It never ceases to amaze me how so-called 'knowledgeable' people herein think they are far superior, knowledge-wise, than the actual aviation experts. Funny, that.


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2940 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2324 times:

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 23):
It never ceases to amaze me how so-called 'knowledgeable' people herein think they are far superior, knowledge-wise, than the actual aviation experts. Funny, that.

Considering how poorly many airlines in the U.S are doing today I have to question what the hell are those '' experts'' doing? Not to mention all those accidents we've been having recently ......  scratchchin 



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
25 Pe@rson : And, needless to say, you, as a complete ameteur, know better. Right.
26 Alberchico : Well if the professionals can't manage it right that says a lot !!!
27 Pe@rson : How nonsensical! Are you knowledgeable enough to make an informed decision? I think not. I can imagine you picking up a tax textbook on the first day
28 Alberchico : 1)it is a fact that SOME low time co-pilots feel intimidated to question the actions of their senior captains 2) It is true that Ryanair treats their
29 Pe@rson : So if you're now admitting that you aren't knowledgeable, then that disproves all the 'facts' you have just stated, namely: Indeed, with reference to
30 Post contains images Gofly : Because the Captain is in command of the aircraft at all times, and what he says is final. Two pilots fighting for the controls could have been a lot
31 Alberchico : Yes I remember in the sixties a lot of accidents happend because the co-pilot sat there and did not work up the courage to question the captain. Ther
32 Pe@rson : Yet you are 21-25? Hmm. And your proof is what precisely?
33 Post contains images Gofly : I'm not debating the fact the the co-pilot should have voiced his concerns, who knows maybe he did. But with the Captain in the state he was in, and
34 Alberchico : True. Do you think this was an isolated case or a complete failure of the Cockpit Resource Management concept?
35 Post contains images Gofly : I'd say probably an isolated case. His superiors probably weren't aware of his personal problems, and therefore had no reasons for concern. But I'm n
36 TheSonntag : Will this have consequences upon the pilot? I think its great that he reported his mistake.
37 Alberchico : if you read the report the captain did not report the hard landing to maintenance imiadetely...
38 Prebennorholm : The failing pilot was a 4,000 hours Australian pilot. The report indicates that the FO fully lived up to his CRM training. It can be questioned wheth
39 Diesel1 : I'd recommend that some of you read the incident report before you carry on posting.... at least then we wouldn't have a misleading thread title - the
40 Pe@rson : Amen. This happens frequently around here, me thinks.
41 MD11Engineer : AFAIK, LH prefers pilots from it´s own school in Bremen, Germany. They first do six months ground school in Bremen, before going to their branch in
42 Post contains images Pihero : People, Aviation has changed a lot in the past twenty years and it's time we did away with a few misconceptions : 1/- EXPERIENCE. It was very importan
43 Alberchico : Does an incident like this affect his job chances in the future ?
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