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Ryanair Replacing 737-800 With 737-800?  
User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Posted (8 years 10 months 1 day ago) and read 8947 times:

Ryanair has ordered 9 more 738's, but 4 are to replacements. I am curious as to why they would need to do this. Exerpt from Boeing article:

"Five airplanes will be for the replacement of 737-800s in Ryanair's current fleet delivered in 1999 and four will be used to accommodate the airline's continued growth into new markets. Deliveries will begin in September 2007."

Why would they replace a 738 that is only 6-7 years old?

Link http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2005/q4/nr_051005g.html

[Edited 2005-10-05 21:01:48]


One Nation Under God
25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMika From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 2862 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 1 day ago) and read 8865 times:

I'm interest to know this also, it seems like a very unescessary thing to do.

User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26376 posts, RR: 76
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 1 day ago) and read 8827 times:

FR has said that they want to get into aircraft leasing and resale (based on the very good prices they got from Boeing). They claim this can be another profit center (which is true), but they are also tacitly admitting that they cannot expand as fast as they are contractually obligated to take aircraft from Boeing.


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineBY188B From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 709 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 1 day ago) and read 8827 times:

this thread covers various theories re why FR might be doing this:
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/2362162/



next flights : BD LHR-TXL J, FR SXF-STN Y, SN BRU-LHR Y, MA LHR-BUD Y, BA BUD-LHR J, BA LCY-SNN-JFK J, BA JFK-LHR J, BA
User currently offlineMika From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 2862 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 1 day ago) and read 8775 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 2):
FR has said that they want to get into aircraft leasing and resale (based on the very good prices they got from Boeing). They claim this can be another profit center (which is true), but they are also tacitly admitting that they cannot expand as fast as they are contractually obligated to take aircraft from Boeing.

I think we have much of it right there, they make money on selling/leasing the AC and they can't fit all the ordered AC on their current routes.


User currently offlineShamrocka330 From Ireland, joined Sep 2005, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 1 day ago) and read 8764 times:
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Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):
they are also tacitly admitting that they cannot expand as fast as they are contractually obligated to take aircraft from Boeing.

Think you may be right here... I read this before somewhere can't remember where though.



aka thebigjd (member since Sept 2001)
User currently offlineA340600 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2003, 4105 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 8679 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 2):
FR has said that they want to get into aircraft leasing and resale (based on the very good prices they got from Boeing). They claim this can be another profit center (which is true), but they are also tacitly admitting that they cannot expand as fast as they are contractually obligated to take aircraft from Boeing.

Who would want to lease a plane from FRWink Their interiors etc would be a big put off, though if they were to lease the older ones they still have the sensible ones as far as i'm aware?

Sam



Despite the name I am a Boeing man through and through!
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26376 posts, RR: 76
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 8658 times:

Quoting Shamrocka330 (Reply 6):
Think you may be right here... I read this before somewhere can't remember where though.

ATW reported it as early as a couple of years ago



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineKaran69 From India, joined Oct 2004, 2885 posts, RR: 18
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 8410 times:

Quoting A340600 (Reply 7):
Who would want to lease a plane from FR

Probably another LCC like SpiceJet in India, which operates 2 738s leased from Ryanair


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 8367 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 2):
they are also tacitly admitting that they cannot expand as fast as they are contractually obligated to take aircraft from Boeing.

This does not make sense. If that were the case, they would not be exercising options and increase their contractual obligation to accept aircraft.

But I do agree that they see opportunity in the aftermarket for late model 737NG and that is why they decided to buy 9 more airplanes.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26376 posts, RR: 76
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 8349 times:

Quoting A340600 (Reply 7):
Who would want to lease a plane from FR! Their interiors etc would be a big put off, though if they were to lease the older ones they still have the sensible ones as far as i'm aware?

Sam, it is not as if they will take them in FR's configuration. They can configure the aircraft however they want, as long as it is within FR's contractual terms and they pay for the changed. Like the CEO of YX once said "you can change the seating configuration of a whole fleet over night"



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineElvis777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 360 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 22 hours ago) and read 8128 times:

hi everyone

I'll throw out another possibility that has nothing to do with the prices that Boeing charges, it may be totally of base.

Could it be That due to The high utilization rate That FC has on These 738's
These birds are due to have a D check(repair?) soon and it Just makes more Sense To sell now while They can get some cash on these over utilized aircraft

perhaps an example might help. suppose That one bought a Peugeot or Volkswagen in 2002 and this car was driven hard on The streets of London and all the hard driving is starting to show, plus to mot is due in a couple of months. I dare say that it is not unheard of for a person to consider selling their Peugeot now rather Than later and buy a 2005 model . And no one would even think about saying that Peugeot is selling These cars at a loss. just a Thought.

peace

Elvis777



Leper,Unevolved, Misplaced and Unrepentant SportsFanatic and a ZOMBIE as well
User currently offlineHBIHLtoEZE From Switzerland, joined Aug 2004, 281 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 21 hours ago) and read 7871 times:

FR is pretty much up to everything...

Sounds very plausible, yet not so nice, Elvis 777.

Cheers



Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life.
User currently offlineBomber996 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 391 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 21 hours ago) and read 7833 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 2):
FR has said that they want to get into aircraft leasing and resale (based on the very good prices they got from Boeing).

How many are they recieving a year?!

Peace  box 



AVIATION - A Vacation In Any Town, I Own Nothing
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26376 posts, RR: 76
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 20 hours ago) and read 7776 times:

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 12):
Could it be That due to The high utilization rate That FC has on These 738's
These birds are due to have a D check(repair?) soon and it Just makes more Sense To sell now while They can get some cash on these over utilized aircraft

That makes absolutely no sense. WN still has their very first 733 flying and it has sustained lots of hot, high PHX, LAS and ABQ take offs and many CA-LAS and intra-CA/TX runs. Those 738s have 20 years left on them at FR's utilization level, and it is a lot cheaper to do checks than it is to buy new aircraft.

Quoting Bomber996 (Reply 14):
How many are they recieving a year?!

Ask them. I think it is upwards of 2-3 per month



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 14 hours ago) and read 7552 times:

This is just basically arbitrage in the airplane market. Ryanair is able to absorb the capacity they planned to come on line.

User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 6 hours ago) and read 5863 times:

Ryanair can make money that way, that's the simple answer.

O'Leary made his infamous "we raped Boeing" comment when he alluded to the huge discount that FR received on those aircraft, the terms of which have never been made public. In fact he made another much-reported comment concerning just what the discount was, namely that he would not even tell his priest. When you go to Boeing or Airbus with an order for hundreds of aircraft then discounting becomes a major factor.

So FR can own them for a few years and then sell them into the second user market, or allow the real owners of the aircraft to market them. Ryanair does the same as Easyjet which is to take delivery at 9am and sell the aircraft on to a lessor at 10am. The lessors are not the GECAS and ILFC type of operation but instead bank consortia and private investment vehicles. Those people could not acquire new aircraft at volume discounts so the value of the aircraft to them (and the price paid) is higher than Ryanair pays at the Boeing factory gate.

In selling the aircraft on, FR will have a fixed lease built into the agreement. So after so many years the lessor gets the aircraft to remarket whilst still in good condition and Ryanair has a booked profit on the purchase as well.

It is a complex way of aircraft trading but makes FR and U2 money.


User currently offlineTockeyhockey From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 950 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 5 hours ago) and read 5760 times:

wasn't it the 738 that was recently redesigned with a new exit door setup so that it could seat a dozen or so more people? maybe they're trading in the old ones for new ones because of an increase in capacity.

User currently offlineCricket From India, joined Aug 2005, 2967 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 5 hours ago) and read 5710 times:

I believe some more of the 738's that SpiceJet is getting are going to be ex-Ryanair. Suits them, because SpiceJet also operates these planes at Ryanair-esque seat pitches


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User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26376 posts, RR: 76
Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 3 hours ago) and read 4818 times:

Quoting Cricket (Reply 18):
I believe some more of the 738's that SpiceJet is getting are going to be ex-Ryanair. Suits them, because SpiceJet also operates these planes at Ryanair-esque seat pitches

FR's pitch is not that horrible, it is the fact that they don't recline. I wonder if SpiceJet will use reclining seats

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 17):
wasn't it the 738 that was recently redesigned with a new exit door setup so that it could seat a dozen or so more people? maybe they're trading in the old ones for new ones because of an increase in capacity.

That is the 739ER



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineElvis777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 360 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 2 hours ago) and read 4737 times:

hello N21011

I guess you did not like my explanation . Perhaps you are right it may be far from the truth but I still don't think that is unreasonable . I did say that in my post that I could be incorrect . You are right when you state that the utilization by southwest is fairly high if not higher than Ryan air . I propose to you that they're two different companies with two different philosophies . Did my example with the Peugeot car in London not make sense ? OK , take a look at reply number sixteen , by a whitehatter , he explains it better than I did .

finally , if I wanted to accuse Airbus of dumping aircraft at below cost to capture market share I think I would do it directly instead of alluding to it by saying that Easyjet got their a319 s at such a low price that it makes more sense to them to sell them in the open market and keep them . I'd like to point out that when Ryan air signed that contract the president of Boeing stated on more than one occasion that they would rather lose market share than make an unsound business decision by selling airplanes at below cost .

Just my 2¢

peace

Elvis777



Leper,Unevolved, Misplaced and Unrepentant SportsFanatic and a ZOMBIE as well
User currently offlineGofly From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2004, 1727 posts, RR: 38
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 2 hours ago) and read 4652 times:
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Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 17):
wasn't it the 738 that was recently redesigned with a new exit door setup so that it could seat a dozen or so more people? maybe they're trading in the old ones for new ones because of an increase in capacity.

That was done in U2's new A319's.  Smile

-Gofly  Smile



Living the high life on my ex-Airliners.net Moderator pension...
User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 1 hour ago) and read 4354 times:

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 20):
I'd like to point out that when Ryan air signed that contract the president of Boeing stated on more than one occasion that they would rather lose market share than make an unsound business decision by selling airplanes at below cost .

That was Condit's reply when he lost the Easyjet deal to Airbus. Boeing was not prepared to go to the figures needed to win U2's business.

Also one reason why Condit's leaden leadership was a drag for Boeing IMHO. Boeing was all about stockholder value in those days and not being aggressive in the marketplace. Sometimes it can indeed make sense to sell at a loss if you are getting 25 years of revenue from those aircraft in the parts bin, but Condit never wanted to do business that way.

In that Boeing era profit was king and share value essential.

To return to FR, one reason O'Leary has never disclosed the discount he got from Boeing openly is precisely due to their aircraft trading activities. Negotiating the sale and leaseback of an aircraft is simplified if the proposed lessor works to a market value of an aircraft and the deal is not complicated by the actual price FR bought the frame for. Published accounts can give an indication, but again only a guess.


User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months ago) and read 4100 times:

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 22):
To return to FR, one reason O'Leary has never disclosed the discount he got from Boeing openly is precisely due to their aircraft trading activities. Negotiating the sale and leaseback of an aircraft is simplified if the proposed lessor works to a market value of an aircraft and the deal is not complicated by the actual price FR bought the frame for. Published accounts can give an indication, but again only a guess.

Very interesting insight.

I would be more than willing to bet that they have a very strict price confidentiallity agreement in place with Boeing that they can never divulge the price to anyone.



One Nation Under God
User currently offlineRedDragon From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 1135 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (8 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3894 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 10):
Like the CEO of YX once said "you can change the seating configuration of a whole fleet over night"

Well, maybe YX's fleet rather than all of FR's  Wink

Quoting Gofly (Reply 21):
That was done in U2's new A319's.

Ah, but now they're removing six seats to save on crewing costs, no?  Smile

Rich


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26376 posts, RR: 76
Reply 25, posted (8 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3777 times:

Quoting RedDragon (Reply 24):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 10):
Like the CEO of YX once said "you can change the seating configuration of a whole fleet over night"

Well, maybe YX's fleet rather than all of FR's

It is really not all that hard.

Quoting RedDragon (Reply 24):
Quoting Gofly (Reply 21):
That was done in U2's new A319's.

Ah, but now they're removing six seats to save on crewing costs, no?

Yep



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
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