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All-Business Class London-JFK Flights To Begin  
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6786 times:

The Times October 05, 2005

BA rivals announce early dates for take-off
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,9077-1811516,00.html

BRITISH AIRWAYS faces a twin-pronged challenge in its most profitable market from two new airlines that are launching business class-only flights between London and New York.

Eos yesterday brought forward its launch date to October 18 in an attempt to steal a march on the fellow start-up airline MAXjet, which is launching on November 2.

Both the new airlines will operate from Stansted Airport in Essex to the John F. Kennedy Airport in New York.


Read on.

Who the hell wants to fly out of Stansted? More particularly, who after doing business in the city would want to schlep out to Stansted to fly on an ageing 757 or 767 when you can be at T4 (or T5 in a few years) in less than 20 minutes?

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7443 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6679 times:
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Didn't MG try a similar experience some years ago?

And didn't that also do the way of the dodo?

Well, it should be an interesting new addition to the playing field. Just sit back and watch.



Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
User currently offlineMikephotos From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2923 posts, RR: 54
Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6625 times:

Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 1):
Didn't MG try a similar experience some years ago?

No, they did JFK-LAX-JFK. That was over 10 years ago.

Mike


User currently offlineCambrian From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 619 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6584 times:

Quoting Jaysit (Thread starter):
More particularly, who after doing business in the city would want to schlep out to Stansted to fly on an ageing 757 or 767 when you can be at T4 (or T5 in a few years) in less than 20 minutes?

20 mins from the City to Heathrow? In a tardis, perhaps?  Wink

Stansted offers a fairly seamless route from Liverpool Street. I am not sure if its image as a low cost airport will impact on these new services though.

Also I am wondering if these new carriers are offering lounge access or free Stansted Express tickets in First Class to lure City types away from Heathrow?


User currently offlineCloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6537 times:

Quoting Jaysit (Thread starter):
Who the hell wants to fly out of Stansted?

Don't forget there is a strong research/engineering/manufacturing base around cambridge in essex. Also it's much easier to get to Stansted from canary wharf than to heathrow.

There were none, now we have 2 new transatlantics in 2 weeks...



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User currently offlineEK156 From United Arab Emirates, joined May 2005, 765 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6497 times:

All Business Class sounds cool.... what is the Price of these tickets? Any Clue?

Are there any other airlines that operate an All Business Class??


User currently offlineBA380 From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 1466 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6462 times:

will their product be up to snuff compared to BA and VS, though? if they are going like Privatair with old style seats, I wouln't fancy it.


cabin crew: doors to automatic and cross-check...
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7537 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 6397 times:

Quoting Jaysit (Thread starter):
who after doing business in the city would want to schlep out to Stansted to fly on an ageing 757 or 767 when you can be at T4 (or T5 in a few years) in less than 20 minutes?

Now I know why American airlines are so keen that their government rescinds Bermuda 2 and opens up LHR to more than two US airlines. Has no one told them that Concorde is out of service and that BA have therefore abandoned the LCY-LHR shuttle?

Quoting Cambrian (Reply 3):
0 mins from the City to Heathrow? In a tardis, perhaps?

I do not think that many of our friends in the US have travelled on Tardis. Like Concorde it was a uniquely European technology although the flashing blue light on the top was reminiscent of technology used by the LAPD.


User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4015 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 6332 times:

This just comes to show how B.A. thrives under the umbrella of the British government while it rips off business travelers. If there was no Bermuda II, any British new entrant would be able to offer LHR-JFK flights with affordable business fares. Given that possibility, B.A. would offer more affordable business class service instead of charging 4200 USD for LHR-JFK each way. That's well past the 3300 USD AF charges for JFK-CDG and the 3200 USD LH charges for JFK-FRA.


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User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 6089 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 8):

Right On! This fare is completely absurd; alas, it's oligopolistic pricing though it still fills seats. To me the final straw was when they removed the buttonhole from the dinner napkin - this on a R/T fare that could have bought a small car...

I used to fly J on BA when the fare was below $4K R/T - still a luxury. Now I fly Y, and I could lease a Rolls for the money saved.

Which brings me to my question - The J class cabin is filled with investment bank weenies, and I'm sure they would give up their company-paid seat for my Y class seat for $1K cash. Should I try this, and would it be legal?


User currently offlineKevi747 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1058 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 6044 times:

Wow, I just looked at their website. Looks really nice. Yikes!  ill 


"Reality has a well-known liberal bias." --Stephen Colbert
User currently offlineVincewy From Taiwan, joined Oct 2005, 767 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 6009 times:

Quick ??, why is US to Europe J class ticket so expensive? I'm not just talking more expensive, it's like more than twice in comparison to Europe to US, more expensive than RTW J class ticket.

If EOS and Maxjet price their ticket between J class and the cattle class, there's a market for them for those who don't mind paying resonable premiums for some comfort. BTW, would LGW work better than STN

Quoting EK156 (Reply 5):
Are there any other airlines that operate an All Business Class??

There's one planned called Primaris Airlines in US, anyone has updates on them?

[Edited 2005-10-06 08:25:56]

User currently offlineNethkt From Thailand, joined Apr 2001, 1086 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5980 times:

I'd fly VS upper class (and walking around the airplanes making myself superior that those in Economy class) rather than flying all business class flight!

Plus, I beleive VS has better products out there!  Wink



Let's just blame it on yields.
User currently offlineCarfield From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1920 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5877 times:

Well Maxjet is selling around $1700RT (cheapest) and is heading to a more diverse range of fares.

But Eols is going all the way to top/first class experience, and the cheapest RT is about $5000RT, which is for now... and it will go for $6000RT.

Prices are slightly more expensive ex-UK!

I like the concept and find Maxjet's fare very reasonable, and indeed I am going to be on the inaugural JFK-STN flight... so I will report back. But honestly I am not expecting a Virgin's upper class experience... more like an average business class experience. $1635 for RT business class tickets is pretty cheap... Well we will see... the booking engine is not that userfriendly though... I had problems booking the ticket and required emails and calls with the airline next day.

Carfield


User currently offlineNetworkDoc From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 77 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5703 times:

Why is everyone moaning about fares?? As rightly pointed out, the LHR-JFK route is loaded with big corporate moneybags, so it boils down to supply and demand. BA can manage to fill First and Club very well on that route, so no problem there. You cannot compare your own ability to pay with the average ability to pay (whether private or corporate). If they can fill the seats and make a nice bunch, then way to go. It is a non-state carrier and has to maximise its profits, the basics of its competitive existence.

Also, you have to compare relative fares on routes of similar distance before you can judge this (out of LHR). I bet VS, AA and UA (also operating ex LHR) will also jack up their fares (on the route vs. other routes of similar stage lengths) for the same purpose. Why charge less than is possible? Airlines are a business and not a charity (at least not since privatisation). Oh, and of course British carriers do not qualify for (illegal EU) state aid or Chapter 11.....

On top of that, LON-NYC is just simply bigger than FRA/CDG/AMS-NYC....

Finally, capacity has been reduced ex LHR to North America, so that plus other increases (security, fuel...), would mean naturally increased demand with more expensive inputs as there are less seats available.



Flown: AB/BA/BD/BI/CX/DI/DL/KE/KL/LH/LT/LX/MH/NW/OZ/PR/QF/SN/SQ/TW/UA/VS/5J.
User currently offlineGman94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 1239 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5678 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 8):
This just comes to show how B.A. thrives under the umbrella of the British government while it rips off business travelers. If there was no Bermuda II, any British new entrant would be able to offer LHR-JFK flights with affordable business fares. Given that possibility, B.A. would offer more affordable business class service instead of charging 4200 USD for LHR-JFK each way. That's well past the 3300 USD AF charges for JFK-CDG and the 3200 USD LH charges for JFK-FRA.

What are you waffling on about? So American, United and Virgin do not benefit from Bermuda II either, Oh no I forgot it's just big bad BA that gets all the benefits. Also where are all the slots at LHR going to come from if Bermuda II is scrapped? Are you expecting Emirates, Cathay Pacific or Air Canada to give up their slots at LHR to allow BMI, Northwest or Delta to opperate transtatlantic routes?



British Airways - The Way To Fly
User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5662 times:

Stansted is a no-frills and charter airport. It is full of mainly LCCS. I cant see many premium business passengers trekking out to Essex and mixing with all those LCC passengers.

User currently offline7LBAC111 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 2566 posts, RR: 35
Reply 17, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5591 times:

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 16):
Stansted is a no-frills and charter airport. It is full of mainly LCCS. I cant see many premium business passengers trekking out to Essex and mixing with all those LCC passengers.

It was good enough for CO prior to 9/11. (and rumours still exist that the CO STN service could yet resume) It's good enough now for CY, OK, LY, MA, T3 and TK.

Its reputation for being a LCC airport is mainly with the less informed but name one airport in the UK now which isn't overrun with LCC's. (except LHR of course). Aside from BD and BA, UK domestic/regional travel is now done on the LCC's for the majority of us.

MaxJet have stated their intention to work with the LCC's at STN to provide feed to their services. How sucessful this will be remains to be seen, but STN is much more accessible than many people realise, and the scope of onward destinations at STN is huge.

7LBAC111



Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4015 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5408 times:

Quoting NetworkDoc (Reply 14):
As rightly pointed out, the LHR-JFK route is loaded with big corporate moneybags, so it boils down to supply and demand.

How can you write such an absurdity? It does NOT boil down to supply and demand because the number of suppliers is limited by the government!

Quoting NetworkDoc (Reply 14):
If they can fill the seats and make a nice bunch, then way to go.

They can fill seats assisted by a restrictive regulation.

Quoting Gman94 (Reply 15):
What are you waffling on about? So American, United and Virgin do not benefit from Bermuda II either, Oh no I forgot it's just big bad BA that gets all the benefits.

Exactly. All these airlines benefit from protection. But BA benefits far more because it controls the largest share of the LHR-US market and is the biggest operation at LHR.

Quoting Gman94 (Reply 15):
Also where are all the slots at LHR going to come from if Bermuda II is scrapped? Are you expecting Emirates, Cathay Pacific or Air Canada to give up their slots at LHR to allow BMI, Northwest or Delta to opperate transtatlantic routes?

This is a very cheap argument. Scrap Bermuda II - just remove the government from the business of determining who flies to LHR. There are plenty of alliances around. If Delta wants to fly to LHR, it can come to an agreement with its European partners such as Air France to use a few of their slots for a hefty fee.



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User currently offlineCloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5355 times:

With Heathrow (100%) and Gatwick (97%) being completely full, the next London area airport any carrier will look to start/add flights would be naturally be Stansted. If there is money to be made, who cares if it's Heathrow or Stansted?

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 18):
How can you write such an absurdity? It does NOT boil down to supply and demand because the number of suppliers is limited by the government!

By both UK AND US governemnts because it takes 2 to sign an agreement. An agreement means both have agreed to abide by its content. It's a leagally binging contract. There is no foul play here.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 18):
They can fill seats assisted by a restrictive regulation.

No one forces you to fly from Heathrow. Greater London has 5 major airports and 3 of them offer transatlantics.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 18):
Exactly. All these airlines benefit from protection. But BA benefits far more because it controls the largest share of the LHR-US market and is the biggest operation at LHR.

Not only BA. AA, and to a certain extent UA, also benefit from this because AA hub at JFK so Bermuda II works to the Americans' advantage too. The British government has hounoured the agreement by barring bmi from flying the route. The American are expected to do the same. As far as I'm aware there are numerous other 5th freedom carriers on the route too. Competition is not an issue here.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 18):
This is a very cheap argument. Scrap Bermuda II - just remove the government from the business of determining who flies to LHR. There are plenty of alliances around. If Delta wants to fly to LHR, it can come to an agreement with its European partners such as Air France to use a few of their slots for a hefty fee.

We know the other American carriers will start hovering up slots if Bermuda II is replaced. This will be made at the expense of various shorthaul services, reducing choice and attractiveness of Heathrow as a major transfer hub -while swamping the NAT market with excess capacity and this kills yield. Do you know why AA is still afloat?



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User currently offlineIslipWN From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5326 times:

www.eosairlines.com shows the seat, and it looks nice! I think I'd rather fly them than fly MAXjet.

On www.MAXjet.com, you can see the loads. All you have to do is go to reservations, select your flights, and enter your name and nationality and click I'll choose my seats. Than click next and you are there! So far there are not too many people booked on the first flight.


Joe


User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3292 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5273 times:

~sounds thread drift warning horn~  stirthepot 

To those who actually asked about the carriers themselves and their pricing, here's what I've been able to see:

Eos - Currently offering "Introductory pricing" of $2500 each way, plus tax. Regular fare is $3250 each way. It appears that at this time, they are offering 1 fare category.

MaxJet - Offering 5 fare classes, from $779 to $1979 each way, plus tax. The higher the fare, the fewer the restrictions.

I don't see either of these airlines being successful in attracting major corporate customers. The biggest customers are getting discounts anyway. I can see an attraction for the entreprenuer or small business person, at least on MaxJet. I don't see the value in Eos for that customer. $6500 r/t vs a $4000 r/t fare (or less) on MaxJet? Last time I flew EWR-LGW, we had some serious tailwinds, made it to LGW in just over 5 hours. This same customer will spend a lot less to fly JetBlue for 6 hours to the west coast. Again it's about value, or a product that will attract customers away from the legacy carriers. I don't see it here.

The London airport is irrelevant for the reasons listed above. If it was the right product, it would work at STN. And I certainly don't see room for 150-200 seats each way every day at those prices.


User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4015 posts, RR: 13
Reply 22, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5205 times:

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 19):
Not only BA. AA, and to a certain extent UA, also benefit from this because AA hub at JFK so Bermuda II works to the Americans' advantage too.

Ask Northwest, Continental, USAirways and Delta if it works to their advantage.

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 19):
This will be made at the expense of various shorthaul services, reducing choice and attractiveness of Heathrow as a major transfer hub -while swamping the NAT market with excess capacity and this kills yield. Do you know why AA is still afloat?

Many shorthaul services on BA are unprofitable and are placeholders for slots so that other airlines are prevented from using them. Including services to ATL, DFW, MCO, IAH, etc in the LHR mix will not "reduce choice and attractiveness of Heathrow as a major transfer hub", much the opposite! A lot of oil traffic from IAH would start connecting at LHR instead of AMS and CDG. More destinations strengthen hubs.

If liberalization is bad because it "kills yields", why is it that the EU came up with a unified market? Why is it that free-skies agreements are becoming widespread?

Better arguments please. There is absolutely no reason to prevent some airlines from serving LHR.



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User currently offlineRwylie77 From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 367 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4616 times:

I'm sorry, but Stansted is easier to reach from the square mile (city of London) and Canary Wharf than Heathrow...and Stansted is a nicer airport to fly out of, so stop this Bermuda II rubbish! The only reason Heathrow is an advantage is if the flight is a connecting flight and not direct London to New York...

User currently offlineDaron4000 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 712 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (8 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4223 times:

It's too bad that I live in Chicago instead of NYC because otherwise, despite the price, Eos' seats look amazingly nice and comfortable, and it might be a nice ride if the prices ever dropped a little.

25 LeonB1985 : Just to point out, recently (and it's not a rare occurance!) there were delays of two hours at T4 LHR immigration - enormous queues, and that's befor
26 Post contains images Incitatus : ALL services tried between Stansted and US failed. If it was more convenient to any number of potential travelers, it would get at least a small shar
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