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CO Trims A Little More In CLE  
User currently offlineNcflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 494 posts, RR: 1
Posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4097 times:

Maybe I'm a little late to this party but I notice the nonstops to Memphis are gone. Seems to me that CO still doing the slow trim from CLE (MEM, BHM, XNA) without adding a darn thing. I really thought the 10 year lease would bring more. The runway investment really seems foolish to me.

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCory6188 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2692 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3984 times:

It seems as if pretty soon, CLE will simply be a CO focus city with EWR and IAH are their main hubs.

Wait a sec...it seems as if that's already the case.


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8370 posts, RR: 23
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3900 times:

Evidently 260 flights doesn't cut it as a hub anymore? Back in the day 100+ was a grand lot! Come to Cleveland at 7AM and watch all the CO and BTA jets lined up and tell me it's not a hub.

BHM and XNA never got established so I wouldn't count that as "trimming." Loosing Orlando or SFO or something would be trimming. MEM is served by NW so they've got a skyteam partner on it... doesn't seem surprising. Give them time, there's still alot of ramp space taken up by construction.

[Edited 2005-10-09 01:24:34]


This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineJoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3885 times:

Look to the CO website for near weekly updates of new service from EWR and IAH though

Quoting Ncflyer (Thread starter):


1) Seems to me that CO still doing the slow trim from CLE (MEM, BHM, XNA) without adding a darn thing. 2) I really thought the 10 year lease would bring more. 3) The runway investment really seems foolish to me.

1) to name just a few...

2) Me too, even a lousy flight to SAN or something for longer than a couple times a week for a couple of months. Kinda like CLE had nearly 30 years ago by both AA and UA.

3) No question, it certainly does with CLE over a barrel compliments of CO. Now every airline shares the cost of this project primarily aimed at CO demands, wishes, and their B.S. about not being able to add any more flights until it was built, all the while trimming flights since 1999, long before 9/11.

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 1):
It seems as if pretty soon, CLE will simply be a CO focus city with EWR and IAH are their main hubs.

Wait a sec...it seems as if that's already the case.

True, but an understatement!

HOPEFULLY WE DON'T READ MORE POSTS ABOUT THE FOLLOWING:

a) More rumours of new CLE service which never materialize. I'd prefer seeing CO CLE-MSY service restored in my lifetime as a start.

b) How fixing the aprons around a couple of gates is latest thing severely crampng the CO operation and or ludicrous expansion desires.


User currently offlineOptionsCLE From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 467 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3841 times:

Oh where to start, where to start?

Quoting Joeman (Reply 3):
a) More rumours of new CLE service which never materialize. I'd prefer seeing CO CLE-MSY service restored in my lifetime as a start.

CLE-MSY is served by RU, guess you can die happy now?

Quoting Joeman (Reply 3):
b) How fixing the aprons around a couple of gates is latest thing severely crampng the CO operation and or ludicrous expansion desires.

Believe it or not this does have a large impact on opperations. Not every gate is equipped to handle 757's or even Next Generation 737's due to the lines drawn on the pavement, the locations of the fuel pits etc. It's not necessarily limiting expansion of new mainline routes, but it does mean a rather large cost to the airline if they can't park the planes at the gate. This is especially true in times of irregular opperations (take a look at this past summer, some of the worst east coast ATC delays in recent history.)

If an aircraft is parked away from the gate, you need to have the APU running to provide bleed air. This means that you're using fuel and increasing your maintinance costs. If the APU is running you need to have a flight crew onboard at a very high cost to the airline. You also can't use your fuel pits so you need to get a tanker over to fuel the plane which can lead to delays and more costs.

Quoting Joeman (Reply 3):
3) No question, it certainly does with CLE over a barrel compliments of CO. Now every airline shares the cost of this project primarily aimed at CO demands, wishes, and their B.S. about not being able to add any more flights until it was built, all the while trimming flights since 1999, long before 9/11.

I don't know much about why the runway was extended but I do know that the largest project, recently, has been the installation ofthe SOIA/PRM system on the parellel runways. This system can increase arrivals by up to 5 per hour if I remember correctly. Seems like a small number to the layperson but this can have a huge effect on your ontime flight statistics at an airport like CLE which has large banks of XJT aircraft departing and arriving at once.


User currently offlineRedngold From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 6907 posts, RR: 44
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3793 times:

CLE-MEM is served by Continental's codeshare partner, Northwest. There was probably excess capacity on that route.

I don't know about BHM and XNA, but I tend to think that BHM is well covered by Delta with connecting service.

CO regularly trims service at this time of the year... CLE has a lot of summer service or summer frequency increases.


redngold



Up, up and away!
User currently offlineJoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3704 times:

Quoting OptionsCLE (Reply 4):
CLE-MSY is served by RU, guess you can die happy now?

This route has been suspended and is not listed in CO current website timetable, but appears to be effective 2/16/06 according to Expedia, guess I can die happy.

Quoting OptionsCLE (Reply 4):
Believe it or not this does have a large impact on opperations. Not every gate is equipped to handle 757's or even Next Generation 737's due to the lines drawn on the pavement, the locations of the fuel pits etc. It's not necessarily limiting expansion of new mainline routes, but it does mean a rather large cost to the airline if they can't park the planes at the gate. This is especially true in times of irregular opperations (take a look at this past summer, some of the worst east coast ATC delays in recent history.)

I believe you. With mainline down to 40-50, the future remains to be seen once that project is completed.


User currently offline7E72004 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3672 times:

I think CO can get by just fine without CLE...IAH and EWR are the real money makers. CLE will go the way of CVG with severe cutbucks.


The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3567 times:

Quoting Joeman (Reply 3):
Look to the CO website for near weekly updates of new service from EWR and IAH though

You have to remember one thing right now: CLE is down 4 to 6 gates until at least the end of 2006 due to reconstruction of the apron around Concourse C. That takes a huge bite out of gatespace, and, quite frankly right now, there isn't anywhere to expand.

CO/COEX will have full gatespace either in late '06 or early '07 again. Right now, the apron construction has shut down gates C-24 thru 29, and construction still must be completed from C-1 through C-18 on the west side of C.

Right now, even if CO/COEX wanted to add flights, there just isn't the space, with that much gate space lost.

Quoting OptionsCLE (Reply 4):
CLE-MSY is served by RU, guess you can die happy now?

Actually, I think COEX quietly dumped it, at least through the first of the year. But again, that's not a biggie. As N766UA said, if they start getting rid of routes like LAX, PHX, DEN, MCO, then you can start talking.

Quoting 7E72004 (Reply 7):
CLE will go the way of CVG with severe cutbucks.

Actually, after the apron construction is done, I wouldn't be surprised to see CO add service out of CLE, not cut it back.

And sorry, you can't fly an effective hub and spoke system without a viable midwest hub, I believe. CLE serves a vital role for CO ops, simply because of the restraints on EWR. If CO could, there'd be 800 flights out of EWR, but that just can't be done.


User currently offlineKL662 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 121 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3441 times:

Quoting Joeman (Reply 3):
2) Me too, even a lousy flight to SAN or something for longer than a couple times a week for a couple of months. Kinda like CLE had nearly 30 years ago by both AA and UA.

What is the deal with SAN-CLE? There was a red-eye a few days a week for a while a couple of months ago, but it seems to have disappeared. I found it very convenient for connecting to the east coast, especially for BWI (which pretty much sucks going through EWR on a red-eye).


User currently offlineSTLGph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9516 posts, RR: 26
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3434 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 2):
Evidently 260 flights doesn't cut it as a hub anymore? Back in the day 100+ was a grand lot! Come to Cleveland at 7AM and watch all the CO and BTA jets lined up and tell me it's not a hub.

who is changing planes at 7am?!

Quoting 7E72004 (Reply 7):
I think CO can get by just fine without CLE...IAH and EWR are the real money makers. CLE will go the way of CVG with severe cutbucks.

Delta at Cincinnati far surpasses Continental at Cleveland now as it is and will be.



if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8370 posts, RR: 23
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3291 times:

Quoting STLGph (Reply 10):
who is changing planes at 7am?!

All of the Beeches come back from the outstations about that time as well as a good 40-50% of the RJs. Alot of people I reckon!



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User currently offline7E72004 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3217 times:

CLE is hardly in the midwest...just look at a map...if they wanted a midwest hub then go a little more west such as MCI or STL (not that those airports right now would be ideal anyway for a midwest hub). CLE is too close to EWR to have an effective midwest hub anyway.


The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3159 times:

Quoting STLGph (Reply 10):
who is changing planes at 7am?!

There are redeyes that do come in around 630am at times during the year. Those west coasters headed east, you know?

Quoting 7E72004 (Reply 12):
CLE is hardly in the midwest...just look at a map...

CLE is a midwest hub. Just look at the map. Jeez.

Quoting 7E72004 (Reply 12):
CLE is too close to EWR to have an effective midwest hub anyway.

Sure. That's why CLE has held hub status for 18 years now. It's considered a midwest hub.

Incredible.


User currently offlineOuboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4616 posts, RR: 23
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3166 times:

Quoting 7E72004 (Reply 12):
CLE is hardly in the midwest...just look at a map...

Ohio is technically considered the Midwest.  Smile Granted Toledo/Dayton and westward resembles the Midwest more than Cleveland/Columbus and east.


User currently offline7E72004 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3146 times:

CLE is TOO close to EWR...look at the map. Jeez

CLE is NOT a money maker like EWR...CO can do very well without the CLE hub



The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
User currently offlineCory6188 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2692 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3141 times:

Falcon74, I know you work for CO at CLE, and you always vigorously defend CO and particularly its operations at CLE, but I would really have to wonder, don't you guys feel like you're getting the short end of the stick?

It seems like every other week, CO is putting out a press release about new service from IAH or EWR (in recent months, EWR in particular), yet we never hear anything at all about CLE except for service cuts. EWR gets all of the cool new routes to Europe, and we meanwhile hear about how CLE-LGW, your sole Europe route, is struggling.

What's your (and other CO employees in CLE) take on this?


User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4589 posts, RR: 18
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3106 times:

I have never been to CLE. How do the facilities compare to airports in the region?


Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offline7E72004 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3104 times:

compared to DTW...there is NO comparison..DTW wins by a landslide.
compared to CVG...CVG is much nicer.



The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
User currently offlineRedngold From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 6907 posts, RR: 44
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3024 times:

Quoting 7E72004 (Reply 15):
CLE is TOO close to EWR...look at the map. Jeez

CLE is NOT a money maker like EWR...CO can do very well without the CLE hub

You're not making sense here. If CLE was not performing an important role, CO would have dumped it years ago. If CLE was not performing an important role, we wouldn't have an CLE-LGW flight.

Instead of posting pompous bluster (well, you are an attorney...) you should try looking at facts. With Bethune at the helm, Continental would not be wasting its time and energy investments in its CLE hub if it wasn't creating more revenue for the airline.

I know that you, being from IND, don't think of Ohio as the midwest, but the eastern U.S. does. Cutting 600 miles and a minimum of one hours' flight time, especially for regional flights, makes a huge difference in fuel savings. There os less fuel burn while circling and waiting for a landing slot, and somewhat quicker connection time at a smaller airport displaced from east coast congestion.


redngold



Up, up and away!
User currently offlineBHMNONREV From Australia, joined Aug 2003, 1383 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3012 times:

Quoting Redngold (Reply 19):
If CLE was not performing an important role, CO would have dumped it years ago.



Quoting Redngold (Reply 19):
Instead of posting pompous bluster (well, you are an attorney...) you should try looking at facts. With Bethune at the helm, Continental would not be wasting its time and energy investments in its CLE hub if it wasn't creating more revenue for the airline.

Wow, if I didn't know any better I would have thought you were describing AA and STL instead of CO and CLE. It's absolutely amazing since some of these "armchair airline geniuses" here at A-Net seem to think that airlines can't make money in places like CLE and STL by operating mini-hubs which serve a niche market, by focusing more on O&D passengers and if they can fill a few empty seats with connecting passengers, then so be it...

Good post sir..


User currently offlineOptionsCLE From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 467 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2977 times:

I second that, very good post Redngold.

To respond to BHM...

Although CO does serve a large amount of the O&D at CLE, I think people would be surprised by the number of connecting passengers that come through the airport as well. For some of the smaller midwest cities, CLE is the only connection option. Also, for the sake of argument let's say you're a frequent CO traveler looking to fly LAX-BUF. Why would you route yourself LAX-EWR-BUF when you could bypass the craziness that is any major airline hub and connect in CLE instead? CLE is a more direct stop and also has a much better ontime performance than most major hubs. I guess I'm speaking more to 7E72004 here when I say that, yes, IAH and EWR get the "more interesting" international routes, but CLE still serves a vital purpose in the CO route structure. And CLE is very much a midwest city, I'll trust the atlas over you.

[Edited 2005-10-09 23:59:54]

User currently offlineJoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2965 times:

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 20):
Wow, if I didn't know any better I would have thought you were describing AA and STL instead of CO and CLE. It's absolutely amazing since some of these "armchair airline geniuses" here at A-Net seem to think that airlines can't make money in places like CLE and STL by operating mini-hubs which serve a niche market, by focusing more on O&D passengers and if they can fill a few empty seats with connecting passengers, then so be it...

Good post sir..

Very Good post.


User currently offlineJoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2950 times:

Quoting 7E72004 (Reply 15):
CLE is TOO close to EWR...look at the map. Jeez

Kinda like PHL and CLT, MPS and DTW, ATL and CVG and then there's STL and ORD with similar carrier preference for the overcrowding places that transferring passangers complain about the most.


User currently offlineMD90fan From Bahamas, joined Jul 2005, 2931 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2938 times:

When did CO dump CLE-XNA?? That route seems kinda wierd to me


http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
25 Joeman : It was once CO's most profitable hub according to the Cleveland Plain Dealer during their poorer reputation days. Most CLE people still think of CO a
26 Post contains images 7E72004 : Ok...i admit i may have gone overboard in my CLE analysis and please accept my apologiies...the last time i was at CLE it just seemed to be a dump and
27 Redngold : When compared to modern, state-of-the-art facilities funded by less fiscally conservative airlines (many of which are now in Ch. 11) and better manag
28 7E72004 : the last time i was there was a few years ago...i think about 3 or 4...i did like the D terminal/concourse but thought to myself that the C concourse
29 Post contains images Falcon84 : Let's put it this way Cory: there's being over-the-rainbow naive, and there's being realistic. Cleveland is third in the pecking order at CO. That's
30 Post contains images BHMNONREV : Uhhh, pardon my sexist assumption... Good post, Ma'am...
31 Uaord : I find it interesting that CO serves both MDW and ORD using RJ service. You would think there would be enough demand from a "hub" or "focus" city for
32 N766UA : And that's a big reason CO flies RJs there. Between Eagle, United (737s, 757s, etc.) and WN, there's not a whole lot left to Chicago.
33 MasseyBrown : I thought this was just another excuse for no service improvements until I saw the extent of the "ramp work" while flying in and out over Labor Day w
34 Iowaman : XNA is a very high yield city due to no LCC's and Wal-Mart headquarters being there. There are a lot of last minute/walk-up fares.
35 ANCFlyer : BHM has service from MSP and DTW via NW . . . several flights a day. Until recently NW had DC-9s in BHM . . . I believe (without checking) it's all R
36 Flyboy7974 : i remember when co announced the cle-bhm route because bhm-ewr was doing so well, they wanted bypass feeder traffic off the ewr a/c, and that way, con
37 CLE757 : CLE-XNA never really did well, CLE-BHM didnt either..Falcon is right I think once the costruction is done CLE will see more flights..I've also heard t
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