NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 6210 posts, RR: 23 Posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 956 times:
The British Government apparently wants to make straight repayable loans to Airbus from now on. The USA would probably have no objection to that, if the loans were at market interest rates:-
"The Government wants to structure any launch aid for the A350, the new plane being built by Airbus, the aerospace giant, as a straight loan and less like a subsidy.
"The move would be the first time that the Government has provided state aid in such a way. In the past, so-called "repayable launch investment" for the aerospace giant has been in the form of an interest-bearing loan that only had to be repaid if the aircraft was a sales success. The Government would also receive royalties on the sales of the aircraft.
"Earlier this year, Airbus asked the Government for ÂŁ379m of support to help develop the 250-seat aircraft which will rival Boeing's 787, the US company's first new aircraft in a decade.
"A move to structure the aid as a straight loan would probably help to calm US concerns that Airbus is receiving unfair state subsidies. Last week, the US rebuffed an offer by Airbus' parent companies - EADS and BAE Systems - to delay using state support to build the A350 for more than a year. The US said it would continue with its case against Airbus subsidies at the World Trade Organisation."
Scbriml From Saudi Arabia, joined Jul 2003, 8429 posts, RR: 25 Reply 2, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 936 times:
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Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter): The move would be the first time that the Government has provided state aid in such a way. In the past, so-called "repayable launch investment" for the aerospace giant has been in the form of an interest-bearing loan that only had to be repaid if the aircraft was a sales success.
Quote: Airbus pays royalties to governments over the entire life of the aircraft programs. Interest and principal is repaid on deliveries, even before the programs break-even and irrespective of the sale price
Art From Lebanon, joined Feb 2005, 2055 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 913 times:
Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter): The British Government apparently wants to make straight repayable loans to Airbus from now on.
Good. Make a loan that's a loan, rather than advancing funds on a non-loan basis while calling them a loan. Any chance of this ending the A v B funding fiasco?
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 6210 posts, RR: 23 Reply 5, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 896 times:
I'd think so, Art. In my experience the British Civil Service doesn't 'leak' things in such detail until they're pretty well settled. And Mandelson is dead keen to patch things up with the US.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
RichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 835 times:
Quoting Art (Reply 4): Make a loan that's a loan, rather than advancing funds on a non-loan basis while calling them a loan
So, what makes the current loans not loans? They have to be paid back, check, they have interest applied, check, theres a maximum repayment term, check. There seems to be a lot of confusion on this forum as to what Airbus actually gets, and this common one where Airbus dont have to repay the loans if not successful is something that has never had any evidence shown for it - as far as I can make out, Airbus start repaying the loans from the initial airframe delivered, and have to meet certain targets for percentage paid back. Certainly sounds like they have to pay the loans back regardless.
Luisca From United States, joined Aug 2001, 1720 posts, RR: 16 Reply 10, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 812 times:
Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 1): Let the WTO rule... oh sorry, forgot - any negative outcome for the US won´t be accepted.
Quoting Maersk737 (Reply 6): Of course not.....USA is the only "Superpower" we have left...They can do whatever they want, and we can't do anything about it......
And the EU has never ever ignored a WTO ruling, please give me a BREAK
Do you forget that there are millions of people unemployed in latin america becouse the EU imposed an unfair tariff on Bananas to help their colonies??????????? Did you just suddenly forget that? The EU has continually ignored rulings that say the tarif is illegal, meanwhile in central and south america entire towns are unemployed becouse of this practice. Oh but I forgot, everything the EU does is by divine inspiration and must be followed by us ignorant brain washed Bush loving Americans.
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
Scbriml From Saudi Arabia, joined Jul 2003, 8429 posts, RR: 25 Reply 11, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 808 times:
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Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 9): There seems to be a lot of confusion on this forum as to what Airbus actually gets, and this common one where Airbus dont have to repay the loans if not successful is something that has never had any evidence shown for it - as far as I can make out, Airbus start repaying the loans from the initial airframe delivered,
Quote: Airbus pays royalties to governments over the entire life of the aircraft programs. Interest and principal is repaid on deliveries, even before the programs break-even and irrespective of the sale price
Maersk737 From Denmark, joined Feb 2004, 592 posts, RR: 2 Reply 13, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 797 times:
Quoting Luisca (Reply 10): And the EU has never ever ignored a WTO ruling, please give me a BREAK
Do you forget that there are millions of people unemployed in latin america becouse the EU imposed an unfair tariff on Bananas to help their colonies??????????? Did you just suddenly forget that? The EU has continually ignored rulings that say the tarif is illegal, meanwhile in central and south america entire towns are unemployed becouse of this practice. Oh but I forgot, everything the EU does is by divine inspiration and must be followed by us ignorant brain washed Bush loving Americans.
All that, does not change the fact that USA, can do whatever they want
RichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 783 times:
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 12): If, on the other hand, they go on arguing, it lends support to the view that launch aid has advantages that ordinary loans don't have.
Well, based on recent activities, Airbus, EADS and the EU have done the opposite of arguing, what with forgoing launch aid for the A350 despite it being available, and now this alternative plan, while the US have done nothing but firm up their stance with each concession on the EU side. Anyone would think that the US wants to see an all out war in the WTO over this rather than actually resolve the situation.
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 6210 posts, RR: 23 Reply 17, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 759 times:
RP, the article says, "A move to structure the aid as a straight loan would probably help to calm US concerns......."
I tend to read that as 'unattributable' Civil Service code for, '"We've run the idea past the Yanks and they've agreed to drop the WTO case if we do it this way......"
I believe Mandelson met with his US opposite number last week?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
I believe it is well known that the Airbus launch aid "loans" are only repayable in full if the project concerned is a financial success. How that "success" is defined I know not. I do know that if I approached bankers for a loan to fund a project on the basis that the loan would not be repaid in full unless the project was a financial success, they would (a) start laughing (b) when they had stopped laughing, explain to me that I did not understand the nature of loans - capital is provided at an agreed rate of interest to be repaid by an agreed date. Unconditionally.
If I was not prepared to accept such an arrangement, they might suggest I approach a venture capital outfit or raise the money on the stock exchange or find some other way of raising capital where the lender is prepared to sign a contract saying some or all of the funds provided may not be repaid.
Eatmybologna From France, joined Apr 2005, 365 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 746 times:
What's wrong with taking a stand on an issue that you think is not fair (including the latest concessions that the EU/EADS/Airbus/Mandelson have offered)?
What is Mandelson afraid of? Let the issue get resolved through the WTO and be done with it.
Isn't knowledge more than just the acquisition of information? Shouldn't the acquired information be correct?
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