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NWA, Striking Mechanics Plan Meeting On Thursday  
User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3144 posts, RR: 10
Posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3406 times:

Courtesy: The Detroit Free Press

NWA, Striking Mechanics Plan Meeting On Thursday

http://www.freep.com/news/latestnews/pm6607_20051011.htm

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12181 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3366 times:

Stick to your guns, NW. You don't have to give them anything.

User currently offlineRAMPRAT980 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 600 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3353 times:

What are the mechanics going to do crawl back to NW and ask for their jobs back ?


With gun control there can be no democracy.. With gun control there can be no Freedom
User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 16
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3348 times:

Perhaps Jewel Gopwani, a scab reporter herself, should report on the whole story and not just part of it.

Northwest has unilaterally changed the "contract" language to state that all laid-off AMFA-represented employees keep their recall rights for 24 months, rather than the 60 that they agreed to, and then stated that anybody who has been laid-off for between 24-60 months will be terminated as of this Saturday unless they cross the picket line (and therefore, just like Jewel Gopwani, would become a scab). Obviously, the AMFA has an issue with this contract alteration, and as such, is going to discuss the issue with NWA.

[Edited 2005-10-11 23:50:06]


Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17824 posts, RR: 46
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3308 times:

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 2):
What are the mechanics going to do crawl back to NW and ask for their jobs back ?

I think NW is just going to give them a box of the stuff they forgot at the office.

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 3):
Obviously, the AMFA has an issue with this contract alteration, and as such, is going to discuss the issue with NWA.

When will AMFA realize they are not in the drivers seat here? They're not even in the same vehicle or even on the same road.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3285 times:

LOL They still call themselves "Striking Mechanics", they should start to realize that they are unemployed!
Where are all the people that said NW would go down without them???

Great Job NW you crushed this union, hopefully many companies will follow your lead......

I usually do not look at NW unless there is nothing else available, but thanks to this I will try to fly NW as much as possible.



/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3271 times:

Sorry to be a bit off topic, but whatever happened to the United striking flight attendants?


The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17824 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3266 times:

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 5):
They still call themselves "Striking Mechanics", they should start to realize that they are unemployed!
Where are all the people that said NW would go down without them???

I've heard the pilots love the replacement mechanics since they actually fix things when they say they will instead of "I'll fix it when I'm ready".



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13529 posts, RR: 100
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3264 times:
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Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 3):
and then stated that anybody who has been laid-off for between 24-60 months will be terminated as of this Saturday unless they cross the picket line (and therefore, just like Jewel Gopwani, would become a scab). Obviously, the AMFA has an issue with this contract alteration, and as such, is going to discuss the issue with NWA.

Interesting details. However, the fact is once there is a strike *both* sides are open to modify the contract.

Interesting that those laid off 2 to 5 years ago will be required to start work this week for NW or be written off. While its obvious the AMFA has "issues" with this, is there much they can do? If enough cross (obviously, 50 mechanics is nothing) it even further weakens the AMFA position.

The other provisions will only exist if NW signs a contract. Now that NW is in BK, the creditors get a say via the judge... Its not good to have no contract (strike) before BK...

The latest labor update by NW looks like they're still running ok:
http://www.nwa.com/corpinfo/newsc/labordocs/Media_Update101105.pdf

Question: can anyone point to a case where a judge had to decide on a *locked out* union contract during BK?

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineM404 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2230 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3224 times:
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Lets try this link for another the Star-Tribune viewpoint

http://www.startribune.com/stories/1778/5663417.html



Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
User currently offlineJetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2987 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3200 times:

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 2):
What are the mechanics going to do crawl back to NW and ask for their jobs back ?

That's about all they can do. Good job AMFA leadership. You really shot yourselves in the foot this time.



Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7438 posts, RR: 50
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3195 times:
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Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
I've heard the pilots love the replacement mechanics since they actually fix things when they say they will instead of "I'll fix it when I'm ready".

You would be wrong. Most of the pilots I fly with have nothing nice to say about the mechs.Nobody talks these guys. Rarely do they fix any write-ups at the gate, they just MEL it if possible. If it's non-deferable maintnance, they ususlly push the aircraft away from the gate, and swap equipment. Yesterday, it these scabs over 1 hour to fix a hanging exit placard. It was originally fixed before with some masking tape instead of using the adhesive glue, that's supposed to be used. The AMFA mechanics never said things like "i'll fix it when i'm ready".

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 5):
Great Job NW you crushed this union, hopefully many companies will follow your lead......

Cheering on criminals are we? Hopefully someday, you'll be on the recieving end of a crushing defeat from a company. I really hope it happens to you. Then you'll think twice about siding with these Lorenzo-type crooks.



Made from jets!
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11973 posts, RR: 62
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3181 times:

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 11):
Cheering on criminals are we?

I have to say, that while I am not a fan of the way Northwest conducted itself in this matter, calling them "criminal" is just absolutely pitiful.

What Northwest's management has done is not -- in any way -- illegal. Harsh? Yes. Hard to handle? Definitely. Unethical? Maybe. Immoral? Debatable. Illegal or "criminal?" Certainly not.

I also must say that, IMO, the AMFA has just as much blame in this situation as management. The unions simply have to understand that unless they can be cost competitive with outside vendors (i.e., TIMCO, Air Canda, El Salvador) than they simply will not have jobs any longer. In a free-market, capitalist system, companies will always find their way -- one way or another -- to the lowest cost provider. It may take time, and it may be difficult, but they will always get there, whether unions like it or not. It's like water finding the lowest elevation.

In that type of environment, unionized labor in America just simply has to accept that the wages and benefits they received pre-9/11 are just not sustainable in today's world. It's harsh, and tough, but it's reality. If people don't like it, they should get out now -- get out when they still have a chance of finding a better, higher-paying alternative, and let those who would like to stay in the airline industry (albeit at lower compensation) do so.


User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7438 posts, RR: 50
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3035 times:
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Quoting Commavia (Reply 12):
I have to say, that while I am not a fan of the way Northwest conducted itself in this matter, calling them "criminal" is just absolutely pitiful.

Well, you just take a walk in our shoes, and you'll have a different opinion

Quoting Commavia (Reply 12):
What Northwest's management has done is not -- in any way -- illegal. Harsh? Yes. Hard to handle? Definitely. Unethical? Maybe. Immoral? Debatable. Illegal or "criminal?" Certainly not.

Sure, and taking a comapny into Bankruptcy, in the midst of a concessions fight, at he same time ataking their "retention" and "Talent" bonuses as well as shoring up their own retirement while lobbying to scrap everyone elses. Technically it may not be criminal, but in theory, it is reprehensible.They still took the company into BK, and they feel they should be rewarded for this. You can spout all your poly-sci mumbo-jumbo all day long, but in essence, you're lending weight to these callous acts these crooks are responsible for.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 12):
also must say that, IMO, the AMFA has just as much blame in this situation as management. The unions simply have to understand that unless they can be cost competitive with outside vendors (i.e., TIMCO, Air Canda, El Salvador) than they simply will not have jobs any longer

Well, when these companies in El Savador, Hong Kong, and Thailand are paying their workforces a fraction of what is paid here, that is not fair-trade, not even close. Know what's actually going on before you defend these less-than-human maggots.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 12):
In that type of environment, unionized labor in America just simply has to accept that the wages and benefits they received pre-9/11 are just not sustainable in today's world

So importing foreign workers to arbitrarily replace your own workers is fair? That's what NW is proposing. 75% of Pacific and Transatlantic flying to be alloted to regional FA's
and 100% of India flying be alloted to Regional FA's. A further proposal states that routes to and from Canada and Mexico be staffed with FA's hired out of Mexico. So we whiny unions should learn to accept these cutback, is that wahat you're suggesting? You have a lot to learn about the working world. The hardest lessons can't be taught from a textbook or a professor.



Made from jets!
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3009 times:

"Attention members, tonight's guest speaker is Charlie Bryan......"

 Silly


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11973 posts, RR: 62
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3009 times:

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 13):
Well, you just take a walk in our shoes, and you'll have a different opinion

While I have never been laid off from a high-paying job, and thus have not "walked in your shoes," I know many, many people who have -- in and out of the airline industry. I'm not saying that qualifies me as knowing what it's like, but I do think I have a pretty firm understanding of the reality of the situation. Someone very close was recently laid off from their job after working with their employer over 30 years, and they were just 3 years from retirement. They lost 60% of their retirement benefits because of it. Believe me -- I can sympathize.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 13):
Technically it may not be criminal, but in theory, it is reprehensible.

That's all fine and good -- and we can debate whether or not it is morally "reprehensible" -- but throwing out the word "criminal" is just irresponsible in my opinion.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 13):
hey still took the company into BK, and they feel they should be rewarded for this. You can spout all your poly-sci mumbo-jumbo all day long, but in essence, you're lending weight to these callous acts these crooks are responsible for.

They oversaw the company's filing for bankruptcy because they felt it was the way to best preserve the assets of the company as a going concern -- it was a legitimate business decision, and I think one that they may well be vindicated for in the future. I wouldn't call it a "callous act."

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 13):
Well, when these companies in El Savador, Hong Kong, and Thailand are paying their workforces a fraction of what is paid here, that is not fair-trade, not even close. Know what's actually going on before you defend these less-than-human maggots.

Who said anything about "fair trade?" "Fair trade" is, in my opinion, a ficticous premise mirage of the left and unions in America. What we have is not "fair trade" at all -- I never said it was -- and it never will be, as "fair" is way to subjective. We have free trade -- that means that rather than a Northwest mechanic in Duluth competing with a Northwest mechanic in Minneapolis, Northwest mechanics in both Duluth and Minneapolis is competing with mechanics in Hong Kong, the Phillipines, Canada, El Salvador, et al. That is simply the way the world -- not just U.S., the world -- is moving. If you can't compete, then find a new job.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 13):
So importing foreign workers to arbitrarily replace your own workers is fair?

Again, who ever entered "fair" into this equation? I never said fair. Capitalism isn't fair. It's unfair. It's harsh. It's hard. It's fluid. It changes constantly.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 13):
That's what NW is proposing. 75% of Pacific and Transatlantic flying to be alloted to regional FA's and 100% of India flying be alloted to Regional FA's.

That's what Northwest feels it needs to do to be competitive and deliver for shareholders. That's Northwest management's objective -- it's to make money for shareholders. If Northwest's FAs done like it, they should try to educate the public, accept competitive compensation and work rules, buy stock or a combination of all three.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 13):
So we whiny unions should learn to accept these cutback, is that wahat you're suggesting?

Not at all. I fully understand the purpose of unions -- to advocate for their interests of their members above everything else, including other unions. However, I also understand the purpose of management -- to advocate for the interests of shareholders at all costs. These two things are in almost constant conflict. That's good, health competition among two competing interests -- shareholders and labor. And, as always -- in my opinion, the competition leads to the ultimate best outcome in the longrun.

The challenge to labor in the New Economy is not going to be "accepting cutbacks," but rather winning hearts and minds of ordinary American consumers who -- whether you like it or not -- simply couldn't care less about the plight of airline workers. The vast majority just want a cheap seat from A to B. If union workers want to maintain the (relatively) generous compensation they have gotten to this point, they must convince consumers that they are worth it. You think you're underpaid? Fine. Convince Americans that you are. Until unions -- not just this union, or that union, but all unions, the entire labor movement -- do that, they have absolutely no hope of serving a purpose in the New Economy.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 13):
You have a lot to learn about the working world. The hardest lessons can't be taught from a textbook or a professor.

My lessons on life haven't come from a textbook, or a professor. Try a little more persuasion, a little less lecture.


User currently offlineJetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2987 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2950 times:

What a refreshing idea....AA actually trying to partner with its unions to assure their future...




Bucking an industry trend toward cutting wages to offset soaring fuel costs, American Airlines is betting it has more to gain by courting its employees than by squeezing them.

American, fortified by a USD$3.5 billion cash pile, has embarked on the industry's greatest experiment in union-management cooperation since an ill-fated attempt at employee ownership at United Airlines ended up with United filing for bankruptcy in 2002.

"Our strategy is... focused on continuing to improve our competitiveness... by having a constructive, collaborative working relationship with our people," American Airlines' CFO James Beer said in an interview. "That approach has continued on a regular basis to yield fruit."

entire article http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1129070608.html



Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17824 posts, RR: 46
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2937 times:

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 11):
You would be wrong.

Just forwarding what I've heard from NW employees... Don't shoot the messenger.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineASFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2005, 1208 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2919 times:

jetjack -

You're arguing with a teenager. Consider the source before you get all worked up.


User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7438 posts, RR: 50
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2772 times:
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Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 17):
Don't shoot the messenger.

Not shooting anyone. Just that I can assure you that these replacement mechanics are not being welcomed by the flight crews. In time they wil be somewhat accepted, but never liked. If the the friction beteen some redtails and greentails can still be felt to this day, friction between labour groups will never fizzle.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
Who said anything about "fair trade?" "Fair trade" is, in my opinion, a ficticous premise mirage of the left and unions in America. What we have is not "fair trade" at all -- I never said it was -- and it never will be, as "fair" is way to subjective. We have free trade -- that means that rather than a Northwest mechanic in Duluth competing with a Northwest mechanic in Minneapolis, Northwest mechanics in both Duluth and Minneapolis is competing with mechanics in Hong Kong, the Phillipines, Canada, El Salvador, et al. That is simply the way the world -- not just U.S., the world -- is moving. If you can't compete, then find a new job.

Spare me the civics lesson. This is not about right or left We're not really just talking about sending planes to other countries, we're talking about importing workers from China, Mexico, and India to replace workers not only on international flights, but on internal US flights. That's not competitive, that's draconian, and heavy-handed. And it can be considered cabotage. We'll wait for the court proceedings

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
Again, who ever entered "fair" into this equation? I never said fair. Capitalism isn't fair. It's unfair. It's harsh. It's hard. It's fluid. It changes constantly.

That's what Northwest feels it needs to do to be competitive and deliver for shareholders. That's Northwest management's objective -- it's to make money for shareholders. If Northwest's FAs done like it, they should try to educate the public, accept competitive compensation and work rules, buy stock or a combination of all three.

You're missing what the point on what is really happening. They're not offering anything, they're replacing. Big difference. I'm willing to take concessions, but i'm not willing to allow NW to farm out my job to another country, not without a fight. Someday you'll experiance the same thing, or you'll be the one orchestrating it. Either way, you'll learn.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
My lessons on life haven't come from a textbook, or a professor. Try a little more persuasion, a little less lecture

Ok Doug Steenland jr. Your father will be very proud.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 18):
You're arguing with a teenager. Consider the source before you get all worked up

Yeah, I saw that. He'll come down off his high horse when he gets his someday.



Made from jets!
User currently offlineB744F From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2722 times:

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 5):

Great Job NW you crushed this union, hopefully many companies will follow your lead......

Damn them all for trying to make a living and fighting for their rights as humans, not expendable sheep


User currently offlineLegendDC9 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2719 times:

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 19):
I'm willing to take concessions, but i'm not willing to allow NW to farm out my job to another country, not without a fight.

While a fight is always admirable, you have to agree that the direction this industry is going is not about to change. Trying to fight it, only leaves all the unfortunate folks caught in the crosshairs, less time to adapt once the final verdict is said. Workgroups and thousands of employees are being outsourced to cheaper labor. It's a fact. The only reason it is highlighted now is because it is happening now and it is the topic of conversation. The same discussions took place when the steel industry started to shrink, car manufacturing was moved abroad and imports started to take a larger piece. It is the airline industry's turn to go through this process and it will emerge stronger, more compact and for the most part, outsourced. Or not...


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2687 times:

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 2):
What are the mechanics going to do crawl back to NW and ask for their jobs back ?

Reportedly 50 of them have been smart enough to go back to work. An additional unknown number have been smart enough to find jobs elsewhere.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 12):
In that type of environment, unionized labor in America just simply has to accept that the wages and benefits they received pre-9/11 are just not sustainable in today's world. It's harsh, and tough, but it's reality. If people don't like it, they should get out now -- get out when they still have a chance of finding a better, higher-paying alternative, and let those who would like to stay in the airline industry (albeit at lower compensation) do so.

The way for labor in high-wage countries such as the US to keep their jobs is to increase their productivity. As long as they are more productive than workers in low-wage countries, no problem. However, most of what unions do is struggle to reduce productivity.


User currently offlineDerik737 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 333 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2656 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
However, I also understand the purpose of management -- to advocate for the interests of shareholders at all costs.

In that case the management at Costco needs to be removed immediately as some shareholders have complained about the fact the profits could be higher if management would decrease the compensation of their employees.


User currently offlineM404 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2230 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2584 times:
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This article mentions the amount NW states was saved by newer mechanics. 200 Mil. I doubt very much if it include the cost of the program to do it however which I think was stated to also be the same amount.

I personally hope many can afford to come back. Their skills are needed.

http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=2694



Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
25 Mariner : Unlikely for the present shareholders. Although Northwest has not said what it plans to do, it will be extremely unusual if their shares are not canc
26 Shenzhen : What is sad here is that NW Management have driven this airline into the ground, and then blaming the 20 - 30 year veterans for its demise. One can on
27 Goaliemn : You really want to have either no more US based airlines, or you want tickets prices out of the reach of most americans. Its impossible to compete wi
28 Lightsaber : I had written a long reply to several of the posts, but I realized it was becoming nothing but a reply to a rant fest. So instead, I will simply ask,
29 Zvezda : That would drive up ticket prices, drive down US flying, and reduce the number of jobs available in the US. Evidence? 100 years? Try 15. It was only
30 Shenzhen : Sure it would, just like the fuel prices have done. Someone up above was saying how great Walmart was, and it makes me laugh. These people come in wi
31 Post contains links KarlB737 : Courtesy: KSTP-TV Mechanics: Today's Meetings With NWA Are Pointless Video Report: http://kstp.dayport.com/viewer/viewerpage.php?Art_ID=163363
32 Supa7e7 : Yes but trade theory holds that both sides benefit from trade. If we had to sew our own clothes, we could buy fewer of those expensive clothing items
33 B744F : And that theory has always been shown to be wrong I don't get it. It destroys small towns and businesses, but "makes consumers wealthy?" No, it gives
34 Post contains images Slider : LOL! Damn Falcon, that was a good one... One of the ongoing and genetic problems at NW- they won't get over it. That goes for far too many employees
35 RAMPRAT980 : Please don't shoot me. But who is Charlie Bryan ?
36 SHUPirate1 : He ran the International Association of Machinists in the late-1980's, and is widely blamed for Eastern Airlines' collapse.
37 Legacytravel : Oh there still on strike.... Hmmmm does anyone care anymore??? Nwa just needs to go away. Mark in MKE
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