SonofHerman From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 18 posts, RR: 0 Posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1948 times:
Star Tribune
Last update: October 12, 2005 at 12:48 PM
Northwest Airlines filed a motion in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in New York today to reject the contracts with its labor unions. The request, if approved, would speed up the airline's efforts to secure $1.4 billion in annual labor savings.
The motion gives union leaders a limited amount of time to negotiate new contracts with Northwest. If they are unwilling or unable to do so, the bankruptcy judge could impose new pay scales and work rules.
Northwest wants to reduce pilot pay by an average of 28.4 percent, flight attendant pay by 17.5 percent and ground worker wages by 5 to 12.5 percent.
Salaried and management workers are expected to take cuts worth $36 million.
Last year, the Air Line Pilots Association agreed to a 15 percent pay cut for its members and that concessionary contract is saving Northwest $250 million per year. When those cuts went into effect, salaried and management employees at Northwest took cuts that add up to $35 million per year.
"Our court motion gives union leaders and Northwest management time to reach the necessary agreements, before the court would be compelled to intervene and impose new contracts," Northwest CEO Doug Steenland said in a statement.
Northwest pilot union leaders are meeting in Memphis this week, and Mark McClain, chairman of Northwest ALPA, told pilots Tuesday that Northwest's filing of the labor motion was "imminent."
In a report to pilots, McClain cautioned that negotiations in bankruptcy are quite different from traditional bargaining "because there is less control, the timeline is condensed and controlled by the court, and the judge is more concerned with what will allow the company to succeed than with what is fair to labor."
Northwest also said Wednesday that its mainline flight schedule, over time, could be "reduced by as much as 15 percent or more."
In the first quarter of 2006, Northwest's seat capacity will be down 11 to 13 percent compared with the same time period this year.
M404 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2214 posts, RR: 5 Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1906 times:
Interesting how they dragged out negotiations for years with only a VERY few days a month allocated to reaching a settlement but once they file BK it's "you better signed or --- or --- or Well, we'll just do it anyway."
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
SHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3661 posts, RR: 18 Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1894 times:
Anybody else find it hilarious that there is an ad right here (unless it's a variable ad) that says "Save big on your next airfare on Northwest Airlines"?
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
FriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4007 posts, RR: 6 Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1856 times:
Well it worked for UA...but they didn't do it a few weeks after filing, more like a few months (over a year). This could get ugly...
DLKAPA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1840 times:
Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 3): Well it worked for UA...but they didn't do it a few weeks after filing, more like a few months (over a year). This could get ugly...
Already has. Who wants to bet they're "rejecting" so they can move crews over to Northwest Lite?
LUVRSW From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 498 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1826 times:
Those are huge paycuts. It wouldn't suprise me for the unions to take a strike vote if the court imposes those sanctions.
FlyGuyClt From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 537 posts, RR: 9 Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1804 times:
As far as the Flight Attendants go. AirTran's new contract would pay more than NWA's proposal. Now, what is wrong with that picture?
LUVRSW From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 498 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1718 times:
I don't know if it's illeagal....but if it is, will they be arrested? What do they have to lose?
Squid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1704 times:
Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 7): As far as the Flight Attendants go. AirTran's new contract would pay more than NWA's proposal. Now, what is wrong with that picture?
Nothing !!! NWA is in debt to their ear's and AirTran isn't. NWA need to under cut AirTran to greatly speed up flight attendant retirements. NWA's work force is too old and senior. By under cutting AirTran as well as all other airlines, many people would leave NWA for jobs at other airlines which also would increase NWA's turnover, thus allowing NWA better profits since flight attendants would most likely not work their entire lives at NWA.
I'm also looking forward to NWA's Trans-Pacific and Trans-Atlantic flight being staffed with foreign based flight attendants. This will allow NWA greater control of their product and image on crucial money making markets. Within a year, most of the international FA's will be young, thin and speak several languages. Go NWA !!!!!
Jetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7336 posts, RR: 52 Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 1669 times:
Quoting Squid (Reply 9): I'm also looking forward to NWA's Trans-Pacific and Trans-Atlantic flight being staffed with foreign based flight attendants. This will allow NWA greater control of their product and image on crucial money making markets. Within a year, most of the international FA's will be young, thin and speak several languages. Go NWA !!!!!
Well, when you get out of the Navy and have to get a job, hopefully you'll lose your job to foreign nationals. That would be great.
KarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2929 posts, RR: 9 Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1550 times:
Courtesy: Workday Minnesota
Unions Seek To Save Contracts In Face Of NWA Motion
EA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 12562 posts, RR: 64 Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1518 times:
Quoting Squid (Reply 9): By under cutting AirTran as well as all other airlines, many people would leave NWA for jobs at other airlines which also would increase NWA's turnover, thus allowing NWA better profits since flight attendants would most likely not work their entire lives at NWA.
Translation: We (NW) need to make working for us as uncomfortable a proposition as possible to increase turnover and hire cheap(er) replacements.
Sad.
Especially since having a transient workforce is ultimately just as expensive as paying for a higher-priced but stable labor pool.
Quoting Squid (Reply 9): I'm also looking forward to NWA's Trans-Pacific and Trans-Atlantic flight being staffed with foreign based flight attendants. This will allow NWA greater control of their product and image on crucial money making markets. Within a year, most of the international FA's will be young, thin and speak several languages. Go NWA !!!!!
I think this is short-sighted on your part. Ceding control of your front-line employees to an outside vendor (since foreign-based flight attendants would not be NWA employees but outsourced to another company) actually reduces quality control, especially on a service-based product.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
M404 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2214 posts, RR: 5 Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1501 times:
Outsourcing customer service to low bid non-company personnel is a disaster waiting to happen. Customers expect quality service with accurate answers to questions. High turnover disenfranchised contract help is not the answer. It would appear that AA and CO already know that.
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
FlyGuyClt From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 537 posts, RR: 9 Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1498 times:
Quoting Squid (Reply 9): I'm also looking forward to NWA's Trans-Pacific and Trans-Atlantic flight being staffed with foreign based flight attendants. This will allow NWA greater control of their product and image on crucial money making markets. Within a year, most of the international FA's will be young, thin and speak several languages. Go NWA !!!!!
Please do tell us. How many times have you flown NWA as a paying customer? NOT on a Navy ticket, but out of your own wallet?
Zvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 65 Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1488 times:
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 12): I think this is short-sighted on your part. Ceding control of your front-line employees to an outside vendor (since foreign-based flight attendants would not be NWA employees but outsourced to another company) actually reduces quality control, especially on a service-based product.
Sorry, but there is no quality control with US-based union FAs. It doesn't matter how lazy, surly, or rude they are, they never get fired. The US has by far the worst FAs in the world. The worst foreign outsourcing would be a dramatic improvement.
EA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 12562 posts, RR: 64 Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1410 times:
Quoting Zvezda (Reply 15): Sorry, but there is no quality control with US-based union FAs. It doesn't matter how lazy, surly, or rude they are, they never get fired.
Do you always speak in hyperbole?
Sorry, but you're 100% incorrect. It's far easier to assert quality control over your own people than with outside vendors.
And FWIW, unionized employees can still be put into steps of discipline up to and including termination. It's managerial laziness that allows the "rotten apples" to stick around.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
Mrocktor From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1646 posts, RR: 51 Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1383 times:
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 12): Especially since having a transient workforce is ultimately just as expensive as paying for a higher-priced but stable labor pool.
Debatable. For non skilled work, highly debatable.
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 12): Ceding control of your front-line employees to an outside vendor (since foreign-based flight attendants would not be NWA employees but outsourced to another company) actually reduces quality control, especially on a service-based product.
Only if no actions are taken to audit the service provided or if there is a single foreign suplier (monopoly).
Quoting Zvezda (Reply 15): Sorry, but there is no quality control with US-based union FAs. It doesn't matter how lazy, surly, or rude they are, they never get fired. The US has by far the worst FAs in the world. The worst foreign outsourcing would be a dramatic improvement.
The wonders of competition...
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 16): Sorry, but you're 100% incorrect. It's far easier to assert quality control over your own people than with outside vendors.
Not when you can't fire your own people for underperforming, you can easily void a contract with a subcontractor for underperformance (and rake in compensation) and hire someone else.
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 16): And FWIW, unionized employees can still be put into steps of discipline up to and including termination. It's managerial laziness that allows the "rotten apples" to stick around.
Only egregious violators of specific company rules or people who fall from grace with the union. Mediocre performance will never be grounds for dismissal in a union shop.
Squid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1315 times:
I have bought my own ticket on NWA many times to visit family and friends and have crossed the Pacific several times on NWA as well as other airlines, and NWA is ALWAYS poor service by comparison. I even remember visiting with a NWA flight attendant one night on a red-eye flight and she told me a very funny, yet sad example of how difficult it is to get rid of poor performing employee's because of the union. Apparently a group of reserve flight attendants, mostly gay men, were assigned to work a DTW to NRT flight on a 747 equipped with crew bunks and during their break they engaged in an orgy. They were discovered by a senior flight attendant who went to wake them up. Once arriving in NRT, they were dead-headed back to DTW to be fired, however, thanks to their awesome union, they only were given probation.
I agree with Zevzda, I doubt NWA will have much to worry about when hiring Asian national women to take over the Pacific. To this day I am amazed to walk into a 7-11 in Hong Kong. It's so clean an orderly I would have no problem eating a sandwitch if it dropped onto the floor.
Steve6666 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 356 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1301 times:
If this reserve group was only "mostly" made up of gay men, what were the others doing in the orgy? Were they watching or taking pictures, or was this an inclusive, pluralistic, 21st century orgy for straight/bi men and women? Were any of them cute?
eu nasci ha dez mil anos atras, e nao tem nada nesse mundo que eu nao saiba demais
Squid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1232 times:
Well I don't know the details but the flight attendant told me it was 4 men, all gay, and two women and it involved toys. But the point is having sex at work is apparently OK by PFAA, they are all still flying.
OOer From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1395 posts, RR: 2 Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1221 times:
Very true....everyone knows all unions do is keep lazy people from getting fired. In this case however the NWA employees need to reject the very crappy contract that NWA management wants to offer them and if a judge OKs it then its time to hit the picket line. Is everyone in the airline industry just gonna keep getting pay cuts after pay cuts? At least if the FAs and Pilots union decides to strike then it WILL be the end of NWA, but it would discourage other airlines from thinking they can get away with murder when dealing with their employees!!!
SHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3661 posts, RR: 18 Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1214 times:
Just a hunch that seniority will be THE deciding factor in which of the 500 (just a hunch that they will bring back the lowest number) come back...that is, the 500 mechanics with the LEAST seniority will be back...less money the bean-counters have to pay them, remember.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
Squid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1212 times:
Well I disagree OOer. Why do these airlines need unions other than to protect idiots like this? If NWA wants to impose wages that top out at $20,000 per year with no benefits, and people stay, than good for NWA. But if NWA cannot get people to work there, than they will raise wages. The only people to be slightly concerned about is the really senior people, but if NWA cuts their wages enough, than even they will leave and get part time jobs as Wal-Mart greeters.
Life is not fair, or fun. And business isn't about taking care of your employee's. NWA must do what is fair for their creditors and stock-holders. They are the people who put their hard earned money into something they believed would pay out in returns.
M404 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2214 posts, RR: 5 Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1188 times:
I've never heard of the above word of mouth example of job saving but from the experiences I've seen of similar instances the union really did not have much to do with it. Look at the lawyers of different rights groups. They get around little things like contract violations using legal methods that protect all kinds of behavior. No. I doubt unions had anything to do with this.
Very true....everyone knows all unions do is keep lazy people from getting fired.
Now that's one broad brush I have to disagree with completely. No, not about the less than worthwhile employee your thinking of, most of us have seen that happen. Until these latest union busting tactics can you say you would have had the wages and benefits without that same union?
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
25 LMP737: Spoken by someone with limited life experience and who works in an environment where you don't have to worry about getting fired or laid off during y
26 Dougloid: So you're an expert on labor relations and union contracts among your other self professed attributes? There's no fool like a fool who knows everythi
27 Tornado82: Not a damn thing. Airtran is profitable and can afford to pay their F/A's that salary. Oh wait, I get it. Since Airtran is 'cheap' they're supposed t
28 Mrocktor: A man who uses his mind is difficult to deal with, is he not? There is no need to be an expert to have an opinion. There is no need to be an expert t
29 EA CO AS: You fail to take into account the lengthy and intensive FAA-mandated training and certification process for flight attendants - while being a F/A isn
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