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AC Pilots Reject Mediation  
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4902 times:

From Reuters (Canada):
http://ca.today.reuters.com/news/new...-AIRLINES-AIRCANADA-PILOTS-COL.XML

This is turning into quite a saga. What are the "other means" the pilots maintain can be used to resolve the issue? Anyone know?


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSunriseValley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4941 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4839 times:

If you go back to the original thread on this; this issue had nothing to do with the cancellation of the order with Boeing.
The issue that caused the cancellation surrounded work rules and other conditions that the pilots and AC could not agree upon.


User currently offlineLuisca From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4825 times:

Not again. I think we are dommed to never see the 777 painted in AC colors. Heres an Idea, why not fire all pilots who dont want to agree to a unified list and replace them with new hires from the US, there are a lot of pilots in the US unemployed.

User currently offlineRobsawatsky From Canada, joined Dec 2003, 597 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4807 times:

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 1):
If you go back to the original thread on this; this issue had nothing to do with the cancellation of the order with Boeing.

Actually, this issue had a significant impact on the vote by the AC pilots component of the union with respect to the proposed new aircraft. They were mad about the seniority issue and used the aircraft issues to vent. Not they were totally happen with the proposal, but it was recommended for a vot by membership from the negotiating team. Now the two issues are separated: Aircraft issues - binding arbitration; Seniority issues - mediation.

This is actually old news, the former CAI pilots said from day 1 of the mediation announcement that they saw no reason to re-open this, it has now been made official.


User currently offlineRadarbeam From Canada, joined Mar 2002, 1310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4784 times:

Quoting Luisca (Reply 2):
Not again. I think we are dommed to never see the 777 painted in AC colors. Heres an Idea, why not fire all pilots who dont want to agree to a unified list and replace them with new hires from the US, there are a lot of pilots in the US unemployed.

Yeah get rid of those that don't ride on the bandwagon. I don't agree with the ex-canadian pilots yet suggesting to fire them is simply childish. Why should we hire pilots from the US? There's a lot of unemployed pilots here too. I don't see any US airline hiring Canadians...


User currently offlineLuisca From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4728 times:

Quoting Radarbeam (Reply 4):
Why should we hire pilots from the US? There's a lot of unemployed pilots here too. I don't see any US airline hiring Canadians...

I assumed that there were not that many unemployed Canadian pilots, becouse Canadian airlines seem to be doing rather well recently. Sorry if I offended you. Hire new Canadian pilots, and when your out of them, come to the US to get the remaining.


User currently offlineCayMan From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 905 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4603 times:

Something is strange about this report.

I had understood from the original release that AC and the union had AGREED on binding arbitration in respect of the 777/787 order issues and had also agreed to mediation on the ongoing seniority issues old AC vs CP pilots.

Is this report now saying that the mediation in rleation to the seniority issues is off the rails or the agreed upon binding arbitration process with respect to the new wide bodies is off?

I try to stay objective as possible but if a disgruntled minority group can derail an airlines hugely important fleet renewal plans and jeopardize its busines model and future plans--this is an appalling example of how creeping Canadian socialism has permitted the Polit-Unions in Canada to wield WAY too much power.

How can anyone expect to do business in Soviet canuckistan?


User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4582 times:

Quoting CayMan (Reply 6):
Something is strange about this report.

I had understood from the original release that AC and the union had AGREED on binding arbitration in respect of the 777/787 order issues and had also agreed to mediation on the ongoing seniority issues old AC vs CP pilots.

Is this report now saying that the mediation in rleation to the seniority issues is off the rails or the agreed upon binding arbitration process with respect to the new wide bodies is off?

I try to stay objective as possible but if a disgruntled minority group can derail an airlines hugely important fleet renewal plans and jeopardize its busines model and future plans--this is an appalling example of how creeping Canadian socialism has permitted the Polit-Unions in Canada to wield WAY too much power.

How can anyone expect to do business in Soviet canuckistan?

You're only going to get a migraine trying to follow this blow by blow. Suffice it to say there is a union, and within that union there is a faction - with its own steering committee and budget - representing former Canadian Airlines employees, and an unofficial faction representing disgrunted Air Canada pilots who feel they were wronged in the merger process. The union has tended to side with the larger AC group, but there is no reconciling the different points of view on the seniority issue. The 777 issue is between the company and the union. The two factions within the union have no say on the issue, as the company and union have agreed to a process whereby any outstanding issues related to the Boeing buy will be sent to binding arbitration. The seniority dispute between the factions is following (or not following, depending on your POV) a different course and may or may not upset the status quo.


User currently offlineGreasespot From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 3079 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4526 times:

?

Quoting CayMan (Reply 6):
How can anyone expect to do business in Soviet canuckistan?

And just how much did the US legacies Make last year? Oh right they LOST billions. Guess our system is mor aviation friendly...and they did not have to wipe out pensions to do it...

GS



Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4927 posts, RR: 43
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4458 times:

Let me clarify this:

With regard to the 777/787, there will be binding arbitration. This is a process when a proposal is voted down, as it was several months ago, as we all know. The result of this arbitration will set the working conditions, pay rates, and training concessions with regard to the introduction of this aircraft. Remember though, the existing pilot contract would allow the introduction of any new aircraft, and AC could have ordered any aircraft they wanted ... However, they wanted further concessions from the pilots, thus the arbitration.

In addition to the binding arbitration of the 777/787, AC has hired a mediator to look at a seniority award settled in 2003 between the AC pilots and the CP pilots. This seniority award, termed the "Keller Award" was "final and binding" in 2003. In no legal way can it be overturned or changed, unless both parties (AC and CP) agree. Even though the Keller award favoured the AC pilots with seniority, etc, it was the CP pilots that have been trying to put it behind them and will not start the process all over again, thus will not participate in the mediation. This was reiterated in a press release today.

Understand, that is the mediation only with regard to seniority issues. As far as the 777/787 arbitration goes, it is still planned, and the aircraft are still coming.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4444 times:

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 8):
And just how much did the US legacies Make last year? Oh right they LOST billions. Guess our system is mor aviation friendly...and they did not have to wipe out pensions to do it...

The poster is from Venezuela (per his profile). Wouldn't your vitriol be more appropriate directed towards an airline from that country?

Back on topic, I still can't figure out what the article is alluding to:

Quote:
"Former Canadian Airline Pilots maintain there are other means available in the collective agreement to resolve the Boeing purchase issue," the group said.

Can anyone out there decipher this?



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineOlympus69 From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 1737 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4292 times:

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 9):
This seniority award, termed the "Keller Award" was "final and binding" in 2003. In no legal way can it be overturned or changed, unless both parties (AC and CP) agree. Even though the Keller award favoured the AC pilots

That's not the way I remember it. It's the Original AC pilots faction that opposed it on he grounds that it favoured the ex CAIL pilots because they had a higher proportion of senior pilots than the AC group. This would result in the bottom of the seniority list consisting mostly of AC pilots.


User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4927 posts, RR: 43
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4275 times:

Quoting Olympus69 (Reply 11):
That's not the way I remember it. It's the Original AC pilots faction that opposed it on he grounds that it favoured the ex CAIL pilots because they had a higher proportion of senior pilots than the AC group. This would result in the bottom of the seniority list consisting mostly of AC pilots.

Not so.

While I don't endorse this site, or any for that matter. If you look at this website, http://www.formercanadianpilots.ca and look at most of the statistics, you will see that the Keller Award clearly favours the ex AC pilots.

However, as I said before, the exCP pilots reject the seniority mediation, but this press release has NO bearing on the 777/787 arbitration, nor the order for new aircraft.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineGreasespot From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 3079 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4224 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 10):
The poster is from Venezuela (per his profile). Wouldn't your vitriol be more appropriate directed towards an airline from that country?

And i am willing to bet that Aircanada is more profitable than any airline in Venezuala.


The way people swap nationalities in here who knows...

GS



Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
User currently offlineCayMan From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 905 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4143 times:

Leave the juvenile "my country's airline's more profitable than yours" jibberish for a forum of children. I didn't raise it, and hate to dignify it by responding, but I am indeed Canadian--not American, not Venezuelan---so leave your typical reactionary canadiana attitude in wanting to blame some other country out of this--it has nothing to do with that.

I am very pleased AC is profitable and hope it becomes more so.

My comment stands about creeping canadian socialism over the last decades creating monster unions and special interest groups which are out of control. To wit---most of the AC unions.


User currently offlineMilan320 From Canada, joined Jan 2005, 869 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4094 times:

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 8):
And just how much did the US legacies Make last year? Oh right they LOST billions. Guess our system is mor aviation friendly...and they did not have to wipe out pensions to do it...

Good one!
 checkmark   thumbsup 



I accept bribes ... :-)
User currently offlineUSAF336TFS From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1445 posts, RR: 52
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3995 times:

In Flight International today:
http://www.flightinternational.com/A...ilot+dispute+will+hurt+777787.html

AC seems to be doing the right thing... Perhaps what they've should have done all along... Separate the Boeing purchase plans and the Pilots Union issues. It's starting to look like the former Canadian Airlines pilots will never be satisfied with anything AC proposes. At that point, AC needs to do what's in it's best interests and tell those pilots to accept the mediated terms or find another job.

Regards,
Sal

[Edited 2005-10-13 15:32:35]


336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8549 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3969 times:
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Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 16):
In Flight International today:
http://www.flightinternational.com/A...ilot+dispute+will+hurt+777787.html

AC seems to be doing the right thing... Perhaps what they've should have done all along... Separate the Boeing purchase plans and the Pilots Union issues. It's starting to look like the former Canadian Airlines pilots will never be satisfied with anything AC proposes. At that point, AC needs to do what's in it's best interests and tell this pilots to accept the mediated terms or find another job.

Regards,
Sal

I think a lot of people seem to be forgetting that the reason the ex CP pilots are against re-opening this is that is was all settled with a supposedly legally binding agreement two years ago .(see below) - why should they be prepared to re-negotiate because one of the parties now doesn't want to accept the ruling that they all agreed back in 2003 would be binding . As far as I can see it is not the ex CP pilots who are in the wrong - it is some of their "original AC" colleagues who are trying to re-open a closed case .


http://www.canada.com/travel/story.h...839462-2d21-42d2-9642-a81ee23166ee

"In 2003, Air Canada management, original Air Canada pilots and former Canadian Airlines pilots all agreed that the pilot seniority award of arbitrator Brian Keller would be 'final and binding.' "

McInnis said the Teplitsky mediation process shows a "troubling disrespect for the law" that his group expects will be rejected by the Canadian Industrial Relations Board.



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineLuisca From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3946 times:

Quoting CayMan (Reply 14):
My comment stands about creeping canadian socialism over the last decades creating monster unions and special interest groups which are out of control. To wit---most of the AC unions.

THANK you, great comment. Welcome to my RR list

The thruth is, that if this were any other country, especially any latin american or asian country, you either WORK with the company, or get fired. A lot of people out there would just love to have any pilot job, these guys have it and will do anything to get more and more power, even if it means running the airline to the ground.

Fire them all. heck ill fly for food.


User currently offlineBmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3895 times:

Boeing like AC has had its share of labour trouble, notably the recent five week strike by its mechanics. And it's not over for Boeing yet as they still have to re-negotiate with their engineers for new contracts.

Boeing, NW, rocketing oil prices, also was it 5 or 6 airline crashes in the past two months?

2005 like 2001 will be a forgettable year for the airline industry.  worried 



The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4927 posts, RR: 43
Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3880 times:

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 16):
It's starting to look like the former Canadian Airlines pilots will never be satisfied with anything AC proposes.

I think you have it the wrong way around.

The former Canadian Airlines pilots are quite satisfied with the present seniority list, as they want this whole process to end, even though they are the clear losers in that final and binding arbitration a few years ago.

It is the more junior former Air Canada pilots that "hijacked" the 777/787 vote a month ago, and made it a seniority issue. They are unhappy because for a short period of time, they became captains on the DC-9 and A320 after only 2 years!!!!! They think that is normal and should continue, and not just a blip in the system.

For the record, it tool me 16 years to become a captain, average for Air Canada. And I would hazard a guess that is true with most legacy carriers in the US.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineUSAF336TFS From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1445 posts, RR: 52
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3863 times:

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 20):
It is the more junior former Air Canada pilots that "hijacked" the 777/787 vote a month ago, and made it a seniority issue. They are unhappy because for a short period of time, they became captains on the DC-9 and A320 after only 2 years!!!!! They think that is normal and should continue, and not just a blip in the system.

For the record, it tool me 16 years to become a captain, average for Air Canada. And I would hazard a guess that is true with most legacy carriers in the US.

Thank you for responding Captain. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not privy to all the details of the negotiations with your Union. It's great that someone, like yourself, tells us, the public, your side of the story. I can only go on what I read in the media, and, to a lesser extent, here on a.net.
Having said that, viewing the bigger picture, wouldn't you agree that for everyone involved, wouldn't it make sense to "de-link" the Boeing purchase from the labor negotiations?
I believe that it's in everyone's interests... AC, the Pilots Union and your customers to go forward with what we all know is inevitable... Air Canada fleet renewal with the new Boeing 777s and 787s.



336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
User currently offlineYYZYYT From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 948 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3811 times:

Quoting Luisca (Reply 18):
The thruth is, that if this were any other country, especially any latin american or asian country, you either WORK with the company, or get fired.

You say that as if you think it is a good thing...

You should be thankful you are not from one of those countries where you would be at the mercy of the "market" or employers or whomever, unless you happened to born rich and privileged.

I don't usually wade into this kind of post, but I personally am proud to live in "Soviet Canuckistan" where society is just a little more caring (this is for you as well, CayMan - you two can go a respect each other as far as I am concerned).

And (here is the aviation related part) I am glad that the people flying me and my family are professionals who are not subject to that kind of coercion: "do whatever the company tells you or you are fired" is a recipe for disaster, by way of corners cut, poorly trained pilots, etc..

YYZYYT

PS:
Luisca,
Should you get you commercial license when you grow up, I presume you will decline the wages negotiated by unions on your behalf? You will say "no thanks, I'll take whatever the company wants to pay, even minimum wage?
No wait, minimum wage is ALSO a product of socialism, I'll work for whatever you want!"


User currently offlineLuisca From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3785 times:

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 22):
Luisca,
Should you get you commercial license when you grow up, I presume you will decline the wages negotiated by unions on your behalf? You will say "no thanks, I'll take whatever the company wants to pay, even minimum wage?
No wait, minimum wage is ALSO a product of socialism, I'll work for whatever you want!"

Hey man, in the airline where I expect to start on (Copa) there are no unions!


User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4927 posts, RR: 43
Reply 24, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3768 times:

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 21):
Having said that, viewing the bigger picture, wouldn't you agree that for everyone involved, wouldn't it make sense to "de-link" the Boeing purchase from the labor negotiations?

I agree completely, and truth be told, that is what is being done.

The 777/787 is a separate arbitration and will be completed shortly. But remember, there was never anything stopping Air Canada from ordering the 777/787 all along. They just wanted further concessions from the pilots, and did not wish to adhere to the existing contract.

The seniority mediation (not arbitration) will review the previous seniority award. But this award has been reviewed three further and separate times, and each time was deemed legal and fair. It appears this process will take quite a bit longer than the 777/787 issue, and is not related to it. Perhaps, the former Air Canada pilots will accept it this time.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
25 Lumberton : LongHauler: Thanks for clarifying this. Your post made this thing a lot easier to sort out. When you say "completed shortly", do you mean a few months
26 YYZYYT : I am posting this based on my memory (no time to do a search) so someone correct me if I am wrong: I believe that the union leadership endorsed the 7
27 Hrhf1 : There's nothing like taking a scenario and extrapolating it to an illogical conclusion. Anybody who thinks Union's make operations run more efficient
28 Yhz78 : I think that this situation goes both ways. AC is in a real bind because no matter what it does iot will have a large pilot group who is going to be
29 USAF336TFS : As an unabashed Boeing fan/stockholder, I'm in full agreement with you. ACs colors will look fabulous on both aircraft!
30 Olympus69 : I had always assumed that because the former Canadian pilots had accepted the award that it meant that they had gained seniority and that the AC pilo
31 ACdreamliner : well... margeret thatcher did it with our miners. they never had a major strike again!
32 LH477 : This is being objective???? There are plenty of enterprises that do quiet well in soviet canuckistan! Creeping Canadian socialism????? Last time I ch
33 AC7E7 : Last time you checked? What year are you in? The NDP is enjoying a great deal of power through their little love-in with the Liberals. They forced th
34 Bman351 : Quoting Lumberton (Reply 10): The poster is from Venezuela (per his profile). Wouldn't your vitriol be more appropriate directed towards an airline fr
35 DFORCE1 : If you're feeling politically active, there is a link on the website to send a petition.
36 LH477 : My phrasing was off, what I meant to say is that they haven't enjoyed great electorial success. As far as there power is concerned, that is the price
37 USAF336TFS : I tried to stay out of this conversation, but the implication here is that something "bad" is going on here in the States. Personally, I think it sou
38 LH477 : You have every right to be not happy with our progressive leaders, I was making my concern felt that I did not want to my country to elect leaders wh
39 USAF336TFS : That was a sincere response for which I'm grateful for. For whatever the differences the U.S. and Canada have, our relationship is the strongest in t
40 LH477 : Amen! And may it get stronger.......
41 AC7E7 : The Conservatives in Canada are to the left of Bill Clinton's democrats. Our two countries' political parties are not lined up the same. Canadian pol
42 LongHauler : I think the reason why the ex Canadian pilots accept the Keller award, is some of them have been through FIVE airline mergers, and they feel "final a
43 Robsawatsky : "Progressive" all depends upon the point-of-view doesn't it? Is it progressing left-ward or right-ward? Hey, it used to be the Progressive-Conservati
44 Skywatcher : I suspect that the management of AC is happy to have the pilots union hacking each other to pieces rather than focused together against management lik
45 Lumberton : Wonderful. Why can't you do it on the Non-Av forum? Lots of room to rant there.[Edited 2005-10-15 01:28:02]
46 Sebring : With regard to the Boeing purchase arbitration, I understand hearings are under way and the arbitrator's ruling is expected by the end of the month, a
47 AirbusfanYYZ : Excellent news! As a very loyal AC flier I am very happy to see progress here and also on the fleet refubishment program. Thanks for the update Sebri
48 Lymanm : Any word on the winglets for the 767s?
49 Sebring : The winglet program has been analyzed for the likely fuel savings, and that is now being turned into a cost benefit analysis. Nothing more to report
50 Bmacleod : At least power in the US isn't centered on the president but through Congress. Canada is another story. From 1993-2003 PM Chretien ruled Canada with
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