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Big Comair Announcement  
User currently offlineSkibum9 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1229 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 8117 times:

According to the local Cincinnati news, OH has called all of its Cincinnati-based workers to a banquet facility near the airport this evening. While an announcement as to the topic of the meeting was not made, the news is speculating that it is about the fate of the airline.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/wlwt/20051012/lo_wlwt/2993177


Tailwinds!!!
41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRJNUT From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1218 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 7866 times:

Leave DL and buy into indy air and help them buy more airbus... All regionals should unite and leave their frickin legacies behind!!!!

User currently offlineDelta4eva From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 344 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 7684 times:

Quoting RJNUT (Reply 1):
Leave DL and buy into indy air and help them buy more airbus... All regionals should unite and leave their frickin legacies behind!!!!

Well considering that Comair is owned completely by DL, I don't think thats gonna happen. I know it was a joke....but I just thought I'd correct you that OH is essentially DL.



FLY DELTA JETS
User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7596 times:

My guess is a 20-25% RIF for flight crews, and corresponding cuts elsewhere in the company. Aircraft will be sold, parked, transferred to XX DCI carrier, or returned to the lessor. Possibly pay/benefit cuts as well. There has been extensive hinting at this for weeks. Anyone else have a guess.


Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlineAkjetBlue From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 790 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7556 times:

word was that Daddy Delta wants to sell 60 of comairs RJs, but i heard that over almost a month ago...


Save a horse! Ride a Cowboy!
User currently offlineDLKAPA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7480 times:

Quoting RJNUT (Reply 1):
Leave DL and buy into indy air and help them buy more airbus... All regionals should unite and leave their frickin legacies behind!!!!

No, they shouldn't. They all operate mostly CRJ-ERJ fleets and the CASM baggage that comes with it. Look what happened to indy air when they left their legacy behind. Regional operators are not airlines, they are vendors, providers of a service. That service is flying around people where/when the legacies tell them to. No Regional sells seats on their own airplanes, they don't sell seats period. They don't do marketing in the tratitional "Fly with us" sense, their marketing departments are much smaller, and court to only a few people in the "Use our airplanes" sense. The legacies do the marketing and sell the seats, then pay the regional vendors to fly people around, this is the only reason why regionals can make money. They are more asset brokers than airlines, they lease out their planes at a cost-plus basis, so that they can cover their costs and make profits. If they all go independent, on top of having to worry about selling their own seats, they also have to get a much larger marketing department to get people to "fly with us," plus, CMIIW they also would have to pay the taxes/fees at airports, which again (CMIIW) they don't do as vendors.


User currently offlineFlyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2000 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 7420 times:

Would "at-risk" flying be an option for Comair? Like have a percentage of their flights be "at-risk" so they could set their own schedule and fly routes that could make them money and just pay DL a fee for the rez and name. This way they could fly routes they think they could make money..etc. Any ideas?

Ryan


User currently offlineLono From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1335 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 7335 times:

so no news from the OH camp...???
Is it bad?????



Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 7303 times:

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 5):
Look what happened to indy air when they left their legacy behind.

Indy Air would have been fine if they had initially gone into Global Distribution Systems. Their hesitance to do so, combined with other missteps they made later that exacerbated that problem (parking airplanes, dropping frequencies, etc.) killed them. Fact is, when they started operations, Independence had United beaten in terms of frequency on every single route they flew, and given the exposure that a GDS would have given them, would have been even on price (yet still keeping yields reasonable), and likely ahead of United on costs, as financials show that airlines' small-jet operations do much better for the legacies when they are on an at-risk basis (like formerly ASA and currently Comair, American Eagle and Executive) versus a fee-per-departure basis (which nearly all non-wholly-owned regionals with jets operate under). Unfortunately for them, they went from a high-frequency business-geared airline without exposure (but with yields) to a low-frequency leisure-geared airline without yields, and as such, the airline is likely on its last legs.



Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineDrewwright From United States of America, joined May 2001, 621 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7270 times:

Funny...apparently Mesaba is announcing closure of the CVG base tonight. I wonder what the news at Comair is...

[Edited 2005-10-13 07:10:28]

User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26414 posts, RR: 76
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7251 times:

Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 6):
Would "at-risk" flying be an option for Comair? Like have a percentage of their flights be "at-risk" so they could set their own schedule and fly routes that could make them money and just pay DL a fee for the rez and name. This way they could fly routes they think they could make money..etc. Any ideas?

Comair can't fly at risk, they are a subsidiary of Delta. They used to, however, market their own flights

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 8):
Independence had United beaten in terms of frequency on every single route they flew, and given the exposure that a GDS would have given them, would have been even on price (yet still keeping yields reasonable), and likely ahead of United on costs, as financials show that airlines' small-jet operations

DH's costs are doccumented as significantly higher than those of United.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7215 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 10):
DH's costs are doccumented as significantly higher than those of United.

I highly doubt they are higher than what United is paying their express partners to operate those planes, on a route-over-route basis...

I would love to see THOSE numbers from last summer, although they aren't readily available.

[Edited 2005-10-13 07:11:26]


Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineFlyboy7974 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 1540 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7211 times:

a good friend of mine and i were talking monday, and she just moved over to comair after jumping ship from indy air, she said all throughout rj class that rumors coming are that delta wants to go back to the props, that they cant afford to fly an rj nearly as cheap as the props could on routes shorter than 200 miles or so. even since she started flying for comair out cvg, she even says the rj doesnt fly short routes well at all that are in the 100 mile range. the other night she had to hold going into dayton because the flight was so full and also so short, that upon approaching dayton they were too heavy.

User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25071 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7146 times:
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Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 8):
Indy Air would have been fine if they had initially gone into Global Distribution Systems.

Indy had a CASM in excess of 16 cents. How was GDS going to help that?

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineLongbowPilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 577 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7131 times:
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I do recall that Turboprops are the most efficient forms of engine.. Correct me if I'm wrong. I also remember a concept design someone had of a MD-80 type airframe with 2 turboprop pushers. Anyone know the answers?

User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 7091 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 13):
Indy had a CASM in excess of 16 cents. How was GDS going to help that?

Yields were VERY strong at the time, according to the numbers I am looking at, 20.86 cents. The problem for Independence at the time was simple: getting people in seats. Unfortunately for them, by the time they got into a GDS, they had gotten rid of a third of their fleet and cut schedules, which did nothing but drive down yields (lower frequency, meaning fewer time-sensitive passengers willing to pay their highest fares, meaning lower yields) and drive up costs (some costs that were fixed by plane type were now spread over 58 planes instead of 87), and created the abyss they were in. As I have said before, if Independence had put themselves into the GDS' immediately, Kerry Skeen would probably be on the Airline CEO version of Mount Rushmore, rather than the Airline CEO laughingstock.

There are other points that I could easily bash Independence on (which have been rehashed so many times I would rather not repeat them), however, a sound business plan, contrary to popular belief (and I will be THRILLED to point this out to Mike Boyd) is NOT one of them.



Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineDLKAPA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 7080 times:

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 15):
There are other points that I could easily bash Independence on (which have been rehashed so many times I would rather not repeat them), however, a sound business plan, contrary to popular belief (and I will be THRILLED to point this out to Mike Boyd) is NOT one of them.

I'm intrigued, how can a business plan that has a 17 cent (and rising, as they continue to dump planes) CASM be sound?


User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 7049 times:

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 16):
I'm intrigued, how can a business plan that has a 17 cent (and rising, as they continue to dump planes) CASM be sound?

Their current one isn't. However, they had a sound business plan (minus the GDS situation) when they started out, with the aforementioned very solid yields that overcame their admittedly high CASM. The problem was that, due to their reluctance to participate in a GDS system, they had abysmal loads, and to fix that problem, they decided to shed planes (raising costs) and frequencies (lowering yields), and that has turned their business plan from one that was workable if they could get more passengers in seats to one that is not workable at all. Go back to their initial 2003-issue business plan, and it bears almost no resemblance to what they are presently doing right now, with the exception of the Dulles hub, and the fact that both use regional jets.



Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25071 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 7013 times:
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Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 15):
a sound business plan

They were an effective new airline. They had no market. All their passengers had been United passengers.

And United retained the majority of those passengers.

In effect, Indy had to start from scratch or steal. In neither case were they going to get great load factors for at least their first six months, probably a year.

There is not an infinite number of people wanting to fly. The market then was probably at saturation level and - ar least in terms of United's express routes from IAD - Indy doubled it overnight.

Unless they could find a way to break even with a low load factor and a high CASM, they could only lose money.

Which is exactly what happened.

It is not as if any of this was a surprise to anyone (except, I guess, Mr. Skeen). It was predicted. Even I could see that they were in trouble when the airline was first announced, and abandoned my plan to buy some shares.

And I surely don't have a Harvard MBA.

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineSyncmaster From United States of America, joined Jul 2002, 2027 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6428 times:
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Quoting Mariner (Reply 18):
They were an effective new airline. They had no market. All their passengers had been United passengers.

And United retained the majority of those passengers.

Exactly, people where going to pay the extra $25-$75 (give or take some depending on the route, and I'm just using this as a number to put out) if it meant that they got their MileagePlus miles and eventually their free tickets. Plus Uniteds route structure and every other aspect about them are totally different, so they really can't even be compared.  Sad


User currently offlineVgnAtl747 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1513 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6288 times:

I don't know if this has any relevance, but at a company meeting a couple months ago, OH's president Buttrel said, "don't be suprised if regionals start using turboprops on shorter single segment hops" -- or something to that effect, don't remember exactly...

Also... Comair has been going around, buying airstairs from US Airways, and shipping them to MCO... why? I don't know. A contractor for OH came to my OH station last week and picked up airstairs that US Airways no longer uses, he said that Comair bought them, and he's trucking them to MCO. He had also been to ISP and another station (forget which one) to get more.

All of our RJ's have stairs... why does Comair need airstairs in MCO? New aircraft type that doesn't have built-in stairs? Turboprops? ERJ?

Could be part of the announcement, but I don't know... just my $0.02.



Work Hard. Fly Right. Continental Airlines
User currently offlineBoeing757/767 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 2282 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6157 times:

Here is the scoop:

http://biz.yahoo.com/pz/051013/87816.html



Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24923 posts, RR: 56
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6151 times:

Are Comair finally going to retire their 737-200s?  duck 


When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineSkibum9 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5932 times:

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 22):
Are Comair finally going to retire their 737-200s?

???? Comair, at least OH, never had 737-200s. They are a regional subsidiary for DL that flies nothing but CRJs, 40, 50 and 70 seaters. You may be thinking of the other Comair, that I think is in Africa.

The scoop is that OH will be targeting a cost savings of $70 million. To do this they will remove 30 aircraft from its operations. These aircraft will all be 50 seaters, however they say in the long-term they will go after cost reductions for the 40 and 70 seaters (probably lease renegotiations). In addition, they will lay-off 1,000 people and adjust pay and benefits to be in-line with other regional carriers, starting with salary and non-union personnel first. Long term they say they will focus on building on the 70+ seat aircraft market.

Last night on the news, they interviewed the head of OH's pilot union, who said that it is not their fault that DL is bankrupt and as such they don't see why they should give consessions. This will be an interesting battle as it is well known that OH pilots have one of the highest pay rates among the regionals.



Tailwinds!!!
User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24923 posts, RR: 56
Reply 24, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5911 times:

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 23):
ou may be thinking of the other Comair, that I think is in Africa.

 Wink
You need to make it clear in your title that you are speaking about a US regional carrier and not the BA franchise carrier in South Africa  Wink



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
25 Motif1 : Why would they get rid of the 50 seaters and not the 40 seaters? Is it because they got the 40 seaters at a very low price? I am flying them on a 40 s
26 VgnAtl747 : That yahoo article has slightly different facts than the internal memo, which is calling for 600-1000 staff reductions, not just a flat 1,000. Motif1:
27 SNATH : Wild guess: the current rules are that a plane should have at least one F/A per 42 (I think it is) passengers. On a 40-seater, you can get away with
28 BNAflyer78 : Tell me the last time you saw two FAs on a 50-set RJ....
29 Post contains images SNATH : Could it be because they do not fill them in order to stay under the passenger limit for one F/A? Tony
30 SHUPirate1 : The rule is one flight attendant per 50 passengers. Therefore, having one flight attendant on a CRJ/ERJ is perfectly fine.
31 BNAflyer78 : Uh, no.....why buy a 50-seat RJ instead of a 40-seater just to not fill it up?? According to FAR Section 121.391, an airplane with more than 19 seats
32 PVD757 : Does anyone have a break-down on Comair's fleet?: # of 40 seaters # of 50 seaters # of 70 seaters
33 EA CO AS : This raises an interesting question though - assume while in Chapter 11, NW is able to renegotiate their cost-plus contracts with their regional part
34 Post contains links KarlB737 : Courtesy: WCPO-TV Comair Announces Job, Salary Cuts http://www.wcpo.com/news/2005/local/10/13/comair.html Video Report: http://wcpo.com/cgi-bin/vembed
35 Post contains links UncGSO : http://www.bizjournals.com/triad/sto...005/10/10/daily27.html?jst=b_ln_hl
36 ChiGB1973 : I know at ATA we had 200 seat 757s that required 4 flight attendants. So, it is 1 f/a per 50 passengers. 50 pax = 1 FA 51 pax = 2 FAs 100 = 2 FAs 101
37 Srbmod : I wonder if OH (and EV) retiring the EMB-120s so early wasn't such a good idea? I wonder how many ex-DL Connection Brasilias are still stored? Perhap
38 Post contains images Usnseallt82 : Probably something along the lines of what AA's Eagle flights just announced.....cancelling a butt load of flights. Other than that, maybe they're goi
39 Ouboy79 : You're apparently the only one that wasn't able to figure it out.
40 Motif1 : It may sound stupid but I'd love to fly on a prop aircraft. I have only flown commercial jets so far. I hope that the regional carriers go back to use
41 SNATH : You might buy it, planning to put two F/As on it, only to realise after you buy it that it's more economical to abuse it as a 40-seater... ...but hav
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