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Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie  
User currently offlineRsmith6621a From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 194 posts, RR: 2
Posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6389 times:

Delta files order to stop payment on LAX facilities

Thursday October 13, 4:07 pm ET

Bankrupt Delta Air Lines Inc. is seeking a court order to allow it to stop payment on $88 million in bonds that financed its facilities at Los Angeles International Airport.

According to a report from Dow Jones, in the suit, filed Thursday in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Manhattan, Atlanta-based Delta claims that because its facilities lease at the airport was really a loan, the carrier wasn't required to repay its debt obligation while operating under Chapter 11.

Delta cited the agreement not as a "true lease" but rather a "disguised" financing agreement, namely an unsecured loan. Under bankruptcy law, a company in Chapter 11 can stop making payments on unsecured loans.

(snip)

http://biz.yahoo.com/bizj/051013/1177587.html?.v=1

Published October 13, 2005 by the Atlanta Business Chronicle

I wonder if DL wants the taxpayers of Los Angeles to flip the bill.


Did You Ever Think Freedom Could Be this Bad
70 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6331 times:

Quoting Rsmith6621a (Thread starter):
Delta cited the agreement not as a "true lease" but rather a "disguised" financing agreement, namely an unsecured loan. Under bankruptcy law, a company in Chapter 11 can stop making payments on unsecured loans.


HA! I would love to see the LAX airport authority kick Delta out of the terminal for that!



NO URLS in signature
User currently offlineN509JB From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6297 times:

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 1):
HA! I would love to see the LAX airport authority kick Delta out of the terminal for that!

HA! That won't happen.

B


User currently offlineSearpqx From Netherlands, joined Jun 2000, 4343 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6269 times:

Quoting N509JB (Reply 2):
HA! That won't happen.

But it should - this is what gripes everybody about CH11, DL basically gets to operate rent free in one of it's larger stations while all the competitors not only have to pay their normal costs, but in many cases foot DL's bill by paying increased operating costs.

The intent of Chapter 11 is to provide protection from creditors while the bankrupt party reorganizes, hopefully with the end result that some/most creditors eventually receive something from the reorganization, vs. nothing from a liquidation. It's not meant to shield you from paying day to day operating expenses, but that is how DL appears to want to use it.



"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Reply 4, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6235 times:

This is ridiculous. A clear example of how Chap 11 goes too far.

LAX should (to the degree that it can) refuse to handle DL if DL succeeds in not paying rent at LAX.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineRsmith6621a From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 194 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6208 times:

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 4):
This is ridiculous. A clear example of how Chap 11 goes too far.

LAX should (to the degree that it can) refuse to handle DL if DL succeeds in not paying rent at LAX.

Even More its suprising how much corporations can get away with while the average american on Saturday the 15th will have to deal with stricter BK rules.....



Did You Ever Think Freedom Could Be this Bad
User currently offlineKahala777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6184 times:

You know one thing, and this is for sure karma can come back and bite anyone in the rear. If Delta becomes to cocky and starts pulling these little stunts, you can look for hefty delays due to "extended" Delta Airlines/Song taxi times at Los Angeles. Dont forget that their is more than one way for the LAX Airport to get back at Delta for its childish games. You could also expect TSA/Customs to not be available for some of Delta Airlines inbound flights from Mexico. Look for LAX to fight back and offer part of the existing, unused Delta gates to any airline willing to pay for a gate or two... Remember, payback and karma go hand in hand.

KAHALA777


User currently offlineMarshalN From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2005, 1521 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6171 times:

You know.... LAX probably wouldn't miss DL a lot (especially if they aren't paying anyway), but I'm sure DL will probably miss LAX a lot.

I think that about sums it up...


User currently offlineDeltaMIA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1672 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6146 times:

Quoting MarshalN (Reply 7):
LAX probably wouldn't miss DL a lot (especially if they aren't paying anyway),

They would still be paying landing fees which are pretty high for 764's and 763's.

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 6):
Look for LAX to fight back and offer part of the existing, unused Delta gates to any airline willing to pay for a gate or two...

No airline is going to pay to move to Terminal 5 and any airline that would start service into LAX would likely be doing so at LAX's expense anyway.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 4):
LAX should (to the degree that it can) refuse to handle DL if DL succeeds in not paying rent at LAX.

It's a matter of needs. The airport does need DL and DL does need the airport. Right now DL can't pay and that is what they are telling the airport. When DL can pay again once out of BK protection they likely won't get a generous financing deal for renting airport facilities. If they never get out the airport is out of the money anyway.



It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11411 posts, RR: 62
Reply 9, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6132 times:

Quoting MarshalN (Reply 7):
You know.... LAX probably wouldn't miss DL a lot (especially if they aren't paying anyway), but I'm sure DL will probably miss LAX a lot.

You can say that again. Obviously, LAX would not want Delta to leave, but -- given this recent turn of events -- I'm sure LAX would much rather like to deal with airlines far more committed to LAX (namely American and United).


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6100 times:

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 1):
HA! I would love to see the LAX airport authority kick Delta out of the terminal for that!

At least kick them out of gates 61 and 63 and give them to CO. They are severely gate constrained at LAX when there are ground holds/delays into IAH or EWR. Yesterday two EWR flights were so late that they were out of gates trying to handle all the planes, and dipping into the "shared" 69 gate that UA usually uses. Yet as usually, 61 sits empty, and 63 is used lightly by DL.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineN509JB From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6084 times:

Quoting Rsmith6621a (Reply 5):
Even More its suprising how much corporations can get away with while the average american on Saturday the 15th will have to deal with stricter BK rules.....

Yea, well, we have no one to blame but ourselves for re-electing someone!  Wink

Anyway, you people can wish all you want, and "should" this and "I want" that. Delta isn't going anywhere, LAX is not kicking them out, deal with it.

B


User currently offlineInTheSky74 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 546 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6046 times:

Actually, the bankruptcy laws have nothing to do with our president - they have been in effect for many many years.

Rob


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11411 posts, RR: 62
Reply 13, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6032 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):
Yet as usually, 61 sits empty, and 63 is used lightly by DL.

Ikramerica, question -- what is Delta's overall gate utilization at LAX? Relative to other airlines?

I know American uses their LAX gates in T4 extremely intensively compared with other airlines and other terminals at LAX. How does DL stack up?


User currently offlineLono From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1335 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6003 times:

anyone know what happened to the old WA headquarters?????
I remember they had some Totem Poles outside!!!



Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
User currently offlineAaway From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1521 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6003 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 13):
what is Delta's overall gate utilization at LAX? Relative to other airlines?

I know American uses their LAX gates in T4 extremely intensively compared with other airlines and other terminals at LAX. How does DL stack up?

I'll answer this one...DL has 16 gates for 40 turns. Throw in AF, AM, CZ, and SY and add approximately 10 more turns. Very low utilization.

DL has a long term lease for T-5. T-6 gates are controlled by LAWA, with preferrential usage given to the current T-6 tenants. Perhaps LAWA will attempt to amend DL's lease of gates there.

Lono...regarding your question about the WA facilities DL inherited with the merger...the buildings remain, but the usage, and their uses have changed. DL's LAX res office closed in September. As a result the mid-rise admin building is not as active...though many of the former admin functions performed there had been moved to ATL long ago. Line maintenance is conducted in the widebody hangar. However, the adjacent narrowbody hangar is used mostly for storage. The two original hangars (50's vintage fronting Avion Drive) were converted into cargo facilities in the late 90's and used by Mercury Air Group.

[Edited 2005-10-14 04:30:30]

[Edited 2005-10-14 04:31:08]


With a choice between changing one's mind & proving there's no need to do so, most everyone gets busy on the proof.
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11411 posts, RR: 62
Reply 16, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5993 times:

Quoting Aaway (Reply 15):
I'll answer this one...DL has 16 gates for 40 turns. Throw in AF, AM, CZ, and SY and add approximately 10 more turns. Very low utilization.

Any definitive numbers on AA? As I said, I know they use their gates very heavily -- just walking around T4 on a Monday, Friday, Sunday around 7am will tell you that!

Quoting Aaway (Reply 15):
DL has a long term lease for T-5. T-6 gates are controlled by LAWA, with preferrential usage given to the current T-6 tenants. Perhaps LAWA will attempt to amend DL's lease of gates there.

If LAX tries to get out of the preferential use stipulations with Delta and the other T5 tenants, would CO be the likely recepient of preferential (or exclusive) use on the gates in T6?


User currently offlineLono From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1335 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5950 times:

Quoting Aaway (Reply 15):
...regarding your question about the WA facilities DL inherited with the merger

Hey thanks for info.... now I am bummed!!!! Sad DL was not able to protect their investment there in LAX..... Man 40 flights a day!!!! wow what a bummer.... Totem poles still there...???? is there and recent photos's of the place.... As a manager of the JNU station I remember having to go and visit Harold Achzinnger (sp) and Grinstrein when WA pulled out of the JNU-ANC market

[Edited 2005-10-14 04:43:38]


Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
User currently offlineAaway From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1521 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5920 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 16):
Any definitive numbers on AA? As I said, I know they use their gates very heavily -- just walking around T4 on a Monday, Friday, Sunday around 7am will tell you that!

Don't have the current sked in front of me, but it's 90-95 turns for 13 gates, a bit higher if QF's ops are added.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 16):
If LAX tries to get out of the preferential use stipulations with Delta and the other T5 tenants, would CO be the likely recepient of preferential (or exclusive) use on the gates in T6?

I don't think lease machinations involving T-5 will affect T-6. However, DL has preferential usage of gates 61, 63, and 65 in T-6. CO would seem to be the most likely benefactor of any changes. But, I understand from a meeting I attended earlier this week that former CO office space in T-6 is still earmarked for US. I was certainly surprised by this revelation, though I have doubts US will move.

Regarding exclusive versus preferential gate usage here, LAWA will not acquiese to exclusive gate leases in the terminals that they (LAWA) control: T-3, T-6, TBIT.

Hopefully Laxint will see this thread and possibly chime in with more info.



With a choice between changing one's mind & proving there's no need to do so, most everyone gets busy on the proof.
User currently offlineN509JB From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5872 times:

Quoting InTheSky74 (Reply 12):
Actually, the bankruptcy laws have nothing to do with our president - they have been in effect for many many years.

Not up on current events, huh?  Wink

Go look it up, it's great reading.

B


User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24814 posts, RR: 46
Reply 20, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5830 times:

As far as the bonds, remember United also tried to default on theirs. At the end the bonds were somewhat renegotiated but the carrier was still liable.
I'm not sure how DL expects to convince the judge that the bonds were a "disguised financing agreement". A contract is a contract and the judge simply must interpret what he sees.

Overall DL use of facilities at LAX has been at a decline over years. The recent increase in Song flying has given the operations some added life however its nothing close to the peak during the early/mid 90s while it still operated most of the ex Western network, had both Asia and Europe nonstops, and had a very busy Skywest/DL Connection operation

Quoting Aaway (Reply 15):
Throw in AF

Air France moved away from Delta earlier in the year an now is now in Terminal-2



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11411 posts, RR: 62
Reply 21, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5822 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 20):
Overall DL use of facilities at LAX has been at a decline over years.

That's for sure. Delta has been in decline at LAX for years. They went from being, IIRC, LAX's #2 airline back in the mid-1990s to today being a distant #4. They traded places with American, who moved from #4 to a very close #2.


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13509 posts, RR: 62
Reply 22, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5809 times:
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Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 4):
This is ridiculous. A clear example of how Chap 11 goes too far.

Agreed. The fact that judges have been rubber-stamping just about every single motion bankrupt carriers have asked for has emboldened these airlines to the point where they have amazing chutzpah - they'll ask for EVERYTHING, even outlandish things like this because:

  • so far the judges have been very cooperative with airline requests

  • they have nothing to lose and everything to gain by asking


  • Quoting N509JB (Reply 19):
    Quoting InTheSky74 (Reply 12):
    Actually, the bankruptcy laws have nothing to do with our president - they have been in effect for many many years.

    Not up on current events, huh?

    Apparently you're not either, because the current bankruptcy laws are the ones DL and NW are playing under - the revisions have not yet taken effect and are of no consequence here.



    "In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
    User currently onlineAloha73g From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2354 posts, RR: 4
    Reply 23, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5764 times:

    My guess is that they are trying to stop paying on bonds issude to finance renovations--which may have been issed as a 'loan' by LAWA--but will still pay their rent. It doesn't say they want to stop paying rent, just they want to stop paying on bonds issued to finance improvements. It just depends on what documentation they have about why the bonds were issued...they (DL) might be completely correct. the article is rather vague about exactly what is going on. Wait for the hearings.

    Quoting Searpqx (Reply 3):
    But it should - this is what gripes everybody about CH11, DL basically gets to operate rent free in one of it's larger stations while all the competitors not only have to pay their normal costs, but in many cases foot DL's bill by paying increased operating costs.

    Valid point, except that a good number of their competitors in LAX are also currently in Ch. 11 or were recently (UA, NW, HA, TZ, US.....)

    Aloha!



    Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
    User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
    Reply 24, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5732 times:

    Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 8):
    It's a matter of needs. The airport does need DL and DL does need the airport.

    LAX does not need DL. LAX needs the passengers. The passengers will quickly migrate to other carriers if DL is "refused" handling by LAX.

    LAX should seriously consider action against DL. I would love to see LAX deny DL access to LAX airport until they recommence payment.



    Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
    25 N509JB : Go back and read reply #5 which I was referencing. Well, I'd like to see Jessica Alba in my bed when I get home tonite, but that's not happening eith
    26 Post contains images Aaway : Yeah...I knew that. DL was the #1 carrier in marketshare for one year, 1992/93 IIRC. Had the bankruptcy court found in favor of UA's position on the
    27 LACA773 : Ikramerica, I agree with you. LAWA should take the T6 gates away from DL and give them to CO especially if CO's gate space is very tight at times. Th
    28 Commavia : While it would no doubt smooth AS/QX-AA connections a bit by having the two airline side by side in T4/T5, I doubt AS would want to give up what they
    29 Pope : Have no fear, Heather Locklear and Blair Underwood are on the case.
    30 Travelin man : Given AA's constraints in a great (but packed) T4, I would think T5 would be a natural extension for them. Also, there is still (I believe) an undergr
    31 Positiverate : Los Angeles World Airports doesn't control taxi times. The tower is an FAA facility and is in no way connected (except for the fact that they sit on
    32 DAYflyer : Which should immediately disqaulify them from occupying any gate space in said terminal. It should set them up for immediate eviction in my opinion.
    33 Ikramerica : Can only speak to T6, as I fly CO, but it is LOW. They barely ever use 61 and 65 that I can see, and 63 is used for 767 service to Atlanta some parts
    34 Commavia : I don't think AA wants any part of T5. They have been able to cut millions in costs annually by consolidating all their LAX operations at T4. In addi
    35 Ikramerica : What about, assuming there is a tunnel, using T5 for Eagle and occasional weather delay MD80 spill over for DFW/ORD flights.
    36 Commavia : Eagle has their own beautiful, relatively new remote terminal over by the AA hangars that handle's Eagle's continually shrinking LAX operations fine.
    37 Ikramerica : On normal days, but when there are long delays out of DFW and/or ORD due to weather, things get backed up. I said spillover, not regular ops. And des
    38 AAgent : Commavia, Is there a good reason why American Eagle's LAX operations are shrinking? I'm interested to know. Best Regards, AAgent
    39 Commavia : A few reasons. First, the yields on these flights just aren't what they used to be. Since 2000, a few LAX Eagle markets -- namely Bakersfield, Carlsb
    40 AAgent : Commavia, As always, your posts are both informative and thoughtfully presented. Thank you for the information, it's very much appreciated. Best Regar
    41 Boeing7E7 : Now does everyone understand why airport expansion is now demand forecast driven, not what an airline wants driven????
    42 Phollingsworth : As EA CO AS points out airlines are basically pushing to see what they can get away with. If DL convinces the judge that the bonds are being payed di
    43 Laxintl : Actually there is a tunnel linking T4-T5-T6-T7. Goes back to the original satellite terminal setup that LAX had. Tunnels were shut shortly after 9/11
    44 BHMNONREV : Will this allow for gates to be constructed on the west side of the TBIT, which will be A380 compatible??
    45 STT757 : The gates DL are using in T-6 used to belong to Eastern, they got those gate rights through Eastern's Liquadation. T-6 used to be CO and EA. Around '
    46 LACA773 : Commavia, Thanks so much for all the information. I love reading your postings. I thought of the AS/QX switch to T5 mainly so that AS would have thei
    47 Aaway : Sure. Bear in mind this pertains strictly to gate usage. Beginning in the mid 90s, LAWA began to engage several tenant carriers in various terminals
    48 Laxintl : Well the master plan does indeed has gates built on the backside of TBIT, however its somewhat unknown if that will ever come to fruition as its not
    49 Post contains images Dlx737200 : But they SHOULD wait until Monday afternoon, once I'm out of LAX on DL. HAHA -Justin
    50 Ken777 : I'm not a lawyer, but I remember reading somewhere that when you file BK your leases are at risk - the leaseholder can cancel the lease. I can see LAX
    51 LACA773 : Do the COX flights to Mexico use jetways or do they have to walk out on the tarmac to board? I know that AM has[had?] been using T5 but I heard they
    52 Commavia : There is absolutely no room for the Eagle operation in T4. Maybe this is what AA could use some gates in T5 for?
    53 Kahala777 : Funny, when I flew Air France on CDG-LAX in Juky we went into and out of Tom Bradley. Perhaps you are mistaken, KLM, is the one n bed with NWA in T2.
    54 Positiverate : How though? The statement was that TSA/CUStoms?LAX tower will retaliate. THe point i was making was that, they are wholly separate entities that have
    55 Post contains links Ikramerica : Between 60 and 62 is a doorway and stairs marked 60A (or is it 62A?). It is used to get to American Eagle connection flights during the day via a shu
    56 Post contains images Commavia : Yeah, exactly. Looking at these pictures ... ... I seem to wonder whether Eagle could make take 1-2 of the gates at the end of T5, convert them into
    57 Ikramerica : The more I think about it the more I don't think that the airport would like to convert those end gates to regional, but more likely 51, 53, 55 area.
    58 Commavia : That makes total sense. And, if AA/Eagle are going to be losing the remote terminal anyway in a few years, they may just be willing to split their op
    59 BigGSFO : Isn't there customs facilities in T5? Long shot here, but perhaps AA/AE could split their ops T4/T5 and AS could move their ops from T3 to T5. This wi
    60 Commavia : Yes. AA used it for several years to handle their LHR (and later SJD) arrivals before their own customs facility was finished in T4. Now all AA inter
    61 Aaway : No, he's absolutely right. AF moved to T-2 in the spring of this year. AM's ticket counter/APO/bag room are in T-6. They still use T-5 gates 51, 53,
    62 Aaway : Laxint, Perhaps you're aware of this already, I can tell you that 2010 is the target for that project to go forward. The idea is to get the TBIT inte
    63 Quickmover : Is the Delta facility at LAX a former Western terminal?
    64 Ikramerica : Well, there isn't much problem opening that tunnel back up. Just post 2 rent-a-cops on each side checking your ID and that you have an AA/AE boarding
    65 Post contains images Aaway : Most of the DL facilities at LAX are former WA. Namely, T-5 and the hangar/ administrative complex located at Century and Avion. Prior to the merger,
    66 Kahala777 : Wow.... I am suprised. The flight I arrived on was continuing to PPT. I may have not noticed anything different since we were actually remote parked,
    67 Slider : "Sorry DL, this jetway is out of service....guess you're going to have to hardstand that 767...." "Delta, they reported some kind of water leak or so
    68 Aaway : Security breaches are the genesis of the tunnel closures. In 2003 there was a breach in one of the southside terminals which resulted in the evacuati
    69 N1120A : LAWA certainly can if they want These both have to do with federal government agencies, not LAWA. There are plenty of airlines that would love access
    70 Commavia : Exactly, which is why I doubt it will happen at all.
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