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Air France Airbus A320 Without Winglets...?!  
User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2376 posts, RR: 21
Posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6991 times:

Hi,
I am sitting in AMS waiting for my flight at the moment.. half an hour ago while eating a burger, I saw an Air France Airbus A320 taxiing outside the window without winglets... does anyone know what happened to it? I could not see the reg. as it was too far away.

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJetMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6963 times:

It was an A320-100 which aren't equipped with winglets. Air France operates 13, British Airways 5 models of that type.


Regards,
JM


User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4680 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6958 times:

Quoting AirPacific747 (Thread starter):
does anyone know what happened to it?

Nothing. It´s an example of the older A320-100 with lower MTOW and without winglets. Only 21 were built in 1987/88.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2376 posts, RR: 21
Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6947 times:

oh okay.. I have never seen those before

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 4, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6934 times:


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Photo © Luis Pontes - Lisbon Spotters
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Photo © Jorge Abreu - Madeira Spotters



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Photo © Christian Waser



regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2376 posts, RR: 21
Reply 5, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6848 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 4):

exactly  Wink

thankyou for the pictures!


User currently offlineUshermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2965 posts, RR: 16
Reply 6, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6788 times:

Just as stated above. It's the -100 series. No real difference when flying with them. Just something to brag about, when talking to your nerd friends.  Wink


Where have all the tri-jets gone...
User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2376 posts, RR: 21
Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6554 times:

Quoting Ushermittwoch (Reply 6):

lol  Wink


User currently offlineAirbusA346 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2004, 7437 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6427 times:

They are called wing fences not winglets.
With out wing fences

And this is the Original A320-100 FWWDC


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Photo © Jörg Tegen



Tom.



Tom Walker '086' First Officer of a A318/A319 for Air Lambert - Hours Flown: 17 hour 05 minutes (last updated 24/12/05).
User currently offlineAerlingus330 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 834 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6416 times:

Quoting AirbusA346 (Reply 8):
They are called wing fences not winglets.

But dont they serve the same purpose as winglets?...

AerLingus330



Aer Lingus Airbus A330-300
User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 47
Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6409 times:

What I have always wondered about, why not retrofit the few original -100s with wing fences to reduce the drag and thus the fuel flow?

If I remember correctly Airbus upgraded at least one of the first A320-100 to full -200 standard (this includes more than just the wing fences BTW) during the certification program, so in theory it should be possible. How come none of the airlines operating the A320-100 (Air Inter then Air France on one side and British Caledonian then later British Airways on the other side) ever showed serious interest in this through the years? Would the fuel saving vs cost really be that marginal?

Anyway, I suppose it keeps al those spotters very happy! Just have a look at how often they comment about the missing wing fences on their pictures of these truely revolutionary machines...

[Edited 2005-10-15 23:16:49]

User currently offlineMNeo From Bulgaria, joined Mar 2004, 776 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6365 times:

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 10):
What I have always wondered about, why not retrofit the few original -100s with wing fences to reduce the drag and thus the fuel flow?

I believe it was something about that since only 21 were built the expense of certifying the changes would be to large to make any kind of profit.



Powered by Maina
User currently offlineRom1 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 135 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6293 times:

@ Sabenapilot

I may be wrong but AF and BA operates these aircraft on such short flights that the savings made would not be really important! These aircraft are over 15 years old as well and will be probably sold to charter companies while being replaced by new A320 I guess.
The winglets (or wing fences lol) only save 1 or 2% of fuel consumption for an A320...


User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 47
Reply 13, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 6264 times:

The fuel savings would indeed be marginal, but still some airlines are doing it to their 737, so it has stunned me AF nor BA have ever seriously considered it. At least at AF the A320-100 is used on the European network like any other A320, so it might prove economical over time, although like you say they are almost nearing the end of their life now, so it should possibly have been done earlier on then to make some sense.

Oh well, nice to have some oddly looking A320s flying around in the European skies.... (those EZY A319s with double overwing exits are also quite nice to see, although much less rare obviously)


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21478 posts, RR: 60
Reply 14, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 6239 times:

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 13):
but still some airlines are doing it to their 737

a wing tip fence is no blended winglet. just because both are on the end of the wing doesn't make them equal. the 737 winglet increases lift and decreases take off run, decreases minimum approach speed, cuts down on noise, and decreases fuel burn by more than 1-2% (3-5% is what is usually stated). But it also adds length and weight to the end of the wing.

If all that was required to accomplish what the blended winglet does was the addition of a tiny chevron at the end of a wing, all airliners would have these.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offline797 From Venezuela, joined Aug 2005, 1892 posts, RR: 27
Reply 15, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks ago) and read 6054 times:

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 1):
Air France operates 13

13!!! Wow, another one to add to my bad luck story list...

A couple years ago I did my first flight to CDG and had a connection to MXP... I was dying to fly on an Airbus because I never did it before... What I found was that my AF A320 had no winglets and.... I WAS MAD!  banghead  Just because what actually atracted me to fly on an Airbus, were their winglets... just a short story! biggrin 



Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
User currently offlineBlsbls99 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 345 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5550 times:

If there were 21 A320-100s built, Air France operates 13, BA operates 5, are the other 3 with Airbus?


319 320 313 722 732 733 735 73G 738 739 742 752 763 772 CRJ D9S ERJ EMB L10 M88 M90 SF3 AT4
User currently offlineAR1300 From Argentina, joined Feb 2005, 1740 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5331 times:

Quoting Blsbls99 (Reply 16):
If there were 21 A320-100s built, Air France operates 13, BA operates 5, are the other 3 with Airbus?



Quoting AirbusA346 (Reply 8):
nd this is the Original A320-100 FWWDC

here you have one, I guess.And the other 2 maybe belong to Airbus too.


Mike



They don't call us Continental for nothing.
User currently offlineVarig_dc10 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2001, 358 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5116 times:

MSN numbers 9 and 15, formerley with Air France and Air Inter, were written off.

varig_dc10


User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 47
Reply 19, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4886 times:

Quoting Blsbls99 (Reply 16):
If there were 21 A320-100s built, Air France operates 13, BA operates 5, are the other 3 with Airbus?

indeed:
-) 1 (the very first one) is with Airbus Industries
-) 5 are with BA
-) 13 are with AF
-) 2 are sadly written off (the 2 'notorious A320 accidents in Paris - Le Bourget and Strasbourg)

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Photo © Michel Gilliand



Although only 21 A321-100 have been officially delivered, I know for sure airbus CONVERTED at least one -100 to full -200 standards during the production process. I think it was the first plane for LH, but I could be wrong... Anyone has more information on this???

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
A wing tip fence is no blended winglet. just because both are on the end of the wing doesn't make them equal.

Thank you for explaining, but I think I know pretty well what a wing fence on an A320F does. That 'tiny chevron' at the end of a wing is in fact a superior method of cutting off the vortex induced drag of that wing while at the same time avoiding much of the unwanted side effects of large winglets like you can see on the A330/A340, B747-400 or the B737NG.
Weight, increased span and the need for a more cautious handling of the plane during ground operations (notably at de-icing but also when taxiing) are not really things any airline is after; they are however inherent to a design which is retrofitted to a less than optimal wing and for which a simple fence would not help much.

Note for instance that the A340 was originally planned with the kind of chevron fences like on all other Airbusses too, but when the original US engine manufacturer abandoned the new A340 engine due to ongoing technical problems, Airbus had no choice but to select the weaker CFM56. Since the aerodynamic design of the first European long haul plane was already finished by then and the wing could not be fully reworked to cope with engines giving less thrust, all Airbus could do to help its newest baby was to fit large lift producing wing tips at the end. The A330 (designed as a twin sister) simply inherited these although it could very well cope without them. Iin fact at one stage Airbus played with the idea of NOT giving them the large A340 style wing lets, but in the end it was decided that it was easier to stick to the one-for-all option and now we see them on the A350 too, all because of commonality. With the A380 however, Airbus has reverted to the much smaller wing fences of before...
Not really surprising since on a well designed modern wing where no compromise has to be found with existing production methods (which is the case for the A350 like I've said), you don't need large tip devices, all you need is a small distorting device to wipe off the vortex trailing at the tip. Best proof is the 777 or the 787... The 737NG blended wing might look very smashing and it certainly increases efficiency of the wing, but I wouldn't hail it too much, since their beauty is a visual proof of just how much room for improvement there is in the aerodanamic concept of the wing itself (despite B. repetitive claims they had completely reworked the wing....)

[Edited 2005-10-16 10:47:06]

User currently offlineToolman From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 12 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4728 times:

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 19):
2 are sadly written off (the 2 'notorious A320 accidents in Paris - Le Bourget and Strasbourg)

Let me correct you, but I think the Air France fatality happened in Mulhouse-Habsheim not in Le Bourget.
Have a look at aviation-safety.net for more details on Air France crash an aviation-safety.net for the Air Inter crash.


User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 47
Reply 21, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4702 times:

Yes you are right of course...
That was also the reason why I couldn't find a picture of the AF A320 disappearing in the tries... thanks for pointing this out!


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7403 posts, RR: 57
Reply 22, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4603 times:

Air France A320-100 :

Based at ORLY. Used only for Domestic services. (172 Y seats). Ex-Air Inter aircraft :

F-GGEA
F-GGEB
F-GGEC
F-GGED Crashed while approching SXB in January 1992.
F-GGEE
F-GGEF
F-GGEG

Based at CDG. Used on short European network. (159 seats).

F-GFKA
F-GFKB
F-GFKC Crashed in Habsheim during Air Show in June 1988.
F-GFKD
F-GFKE
F-GFKF
F-GFKG
F-GFKQ*

*Despite what you may read on some website, including A.net, F-GFKQ has never been converted into a -200 and is still referred in AF's manuals as an A320-100.

This aircraft is actally msn 002, used by Airbus for flight tests and finally delivered to AF in Feb.1991.


BA's A320-100 are :

G-BUSB
G-BUSC
G-BUSD
G-BUSE
G-BUSF.

Add to this list the prototype msn 001 F-WWBA, still the property of Airbus and you have all the 21 A320-100 built.


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User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 47
Reply 23, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4559 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 22):
Despite what you may read on some website, including A.net, F-GFKQ has never been converted into a -200 and is still referred in AF's manuals as an A320-100.

oh I know, the only A320-100 converted to -200 standards is -as far as I know- the first plane for LH. Its assembly was already started when Airbus decided to build only -200s and so this plane received the supplementary center fuel tank as well as the wing fences and was delivered as a -200 although it stated its production as a -100.

However, I'd like to know the registration of this plane as well as an somewhat more official confirmation from this than just my memory (and that of my fellow A320 drivers).


User currently offlineJetMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4537 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 22):
*Despite what you may read on some website, including A.net, F-GFKQ has never been converted into a -200 and is still referred in AF's manuals as an A320-100.

The official French aviation register also shows the aircraft as a -111 version. Just search for "F-GFKQ":

http://www.immat.aviation-civile.gou...r/immat/servlet/aeronef_liste.html


Regards,
JM


25 Ikramerica : If you know everything, why make vague statements? You say some airlines are doing 'it' on the 737. Since you know it all, I guess saying 'it' was a
26 Sabenapilot : calm down Ikramerica, you'll get yourself in hospital if you continue like this... Winglets -contrary to wing fences-are no hint at any design failure
27 Sabenapilot : Oh, by the way Ikramerica, I wonder, did you actually READ my reply fully or just jumped on the 'reply' button because somebody dare to say a negative
28 Gigneil : Half true... the A350 is going to feature an all new winglet configuration, so it won't be common with the A330 and A340. N
29 Sabenapilot : Are they going to use that advanced winglet design test flown on the compny A340-200 on the A350 after all then? That sure looked very nice and I reme
30 Leskova : The LH A320 with the lowest MSN that I could find is D-AIPA, named Buxtehude; this is MSN 69, which had it's first flight in 2 August 1989. There are
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