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PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans  
User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3047 posts, RR: 10
Posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 4161 times:

Courtesy: Bloomberg News

Philadelphia Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...10000103&sid=aXGzMW98AaDE&refer=us

54 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 4144 times:

I have a GREAT idea...take a referendum of all of these clowns, and then whoever votes no, simply bulldoze their house under whatever clause it is that allows them to...


Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineUALPHLCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4118 times:

``I go to sleep to the roar of airplanes flying over my house and I wake up to the same roar,'' said Edward Vanderslice, 67, a retired machinist from Wilmington, Delaware. ``The airport's lack of planning shouldn't destroy my quality of life.''

The AIRPORT'S lack of planning?!?!?

The airport has been there for 50 years, the lack of planning was the developer who built in the flight path and the homeowner who bought the place. Buyer beware.


User currently offline7E72004 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4116 times:

I agree UALPHLCS...the person who buys a house near an airport should know that it is noisy and there is the poss. of expansion. If you don't want the noise...then DONT live near an airport!


The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
User currently offlineRC135U From United States of America, joined May 2005, 293 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4059 times:

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 2):
``I go to sleep to the roar of airplanes flying over my house and I wake up to the same roar,'' said Edward Vanderslice, 67, a retired machinist from Wilmington, Delaware

He must be a light sleeper - Wilmington's maybe 18-20 miles from PHL.


User currently offlineCrownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1798 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4038 times:

I am still trying to figure out why all these people complain about aircraft that all meet Stage III noise requirements. In fact, a good percentage of a/c operating in and out of PHL qualify for the future Stage IV noise restrictions. Like we have all said 1,000,000 times before; If you don't like the noise, don't live in area where an airport has been for 65+ years!

User currently offlineAndz From South Africa, joined Feb 2004, 8416 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3952 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 2):
``I go to sleep to the roar of airplanes flying over my house and I wake up to the same roar,''

WTF is he complaining about, he says himself he goes to sleep!



After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
User currently offline7E72004 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3885 times:

My previous stance on this topic still stands  Smile, but there are many i am sure that would not have been able to see the amount of traffic, flights, airlines, etc 65 years ago. It is one of those things that some can't see that far into the future. If i bought a house by PHL 65 years ago i probably would not have thought that PHL would have the amount of traffic it has now or the amount construction that has happened. BUT, like i said before, i still stand by my previous post  Wink


The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
User currently offlineSupa7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3854 times:

PHL quite obviously needs a runway reconfig. No amount of whiny longtime neighbors / random distant complainers changes that.

PHL needs capacity and weather robustness.


User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7482 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3784 times:

From the article bold emphasis added:

''They fly so low I can read the numbers on the planes,'' Amy Pollock, 43, who lives in Ardencroft, Delaware, said at a Sept. 21 hearing that drew about 70 residents, including Vanderslice. Planes come at under 2,000 feet, below the ceiling set by the FAA, rattling her windows, she said.

If the planes are indeed flying below the FAA ceiling, then it's more of a pilot's operations issues. Heck, if she were a spotter, she'd probably would love being able to read the tail numbers.

Southwest has driven down one-way fares to U.S. cities from Philadelphia by a quarter, airport officials estimate. New York- area residents, unable to fly Southwest from JFK, La Guardia or Newark, were traveling two hours to Philadelphia to do so, the New York Times reported in March.

Before WN came to PHL in May 2004 (btw, the article erroneously listed WN starting PHL service in May 2001); many Delaware valley residents drove down to BWI to either fly WN or get lower fares from other BWI carriers courtesy of competition from WN. Sounds like history is repeating itself.

FYI, the plans in question and the meeting are referenced in the below-thread:
PHL Plan

From the article:
Some expansion opponents suggest that Philadelphia bring planes in along the Delaware River or divert traffic to regional airports such as Lehigh International near Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, or Atlantic City, New Jersey.

SJTA along w/NK are already planning a sizable terminal expansion over at ACY. Regretably, ABE lost some of its thunder when WN chose PHL over it; but that's not to say that they can't expand or at least get another sizable carrier there. B6 perhaps? Although residents have given LNAA officials some considerable grief every time they talk about expansion in years past.

Love the article's final sentence.
Vanderslice had a more radical solution: ''We need another airport.''

And just where can one be placed? And in the wwwwaaaaayyyyy off chance that if a site is even chosen and one gets successfully built; Vanderslice will be long gone before a new airport gets its first plane landing.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineMarshalN From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2005, 1521 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3755 times:

And these people think they have it tough?


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jean-Gregoire Marin



User currently offlineJalto27R From United States of America, joined May 2004, 857 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3728 times:

``They fly so low I can read the numbers on the planes,'' Amy Pollock, 43, who lives in Ardencroft, Delaware

I can read the numbers of the PHL aircraft landing from the 27's at my house, and they're at 2,100. Big deal, they aren't loud at all.

``The noise gets so bad that if I want to stand on my driveway and talk to my neighbor 50 feet away, we have to scream at each other,'' said Steve Donato, 37, a leader of PHL Citizens Aviation Watch and technical director for a Philadelphia museum. ``That's not the way I want to live my life.''

Ed (PHLApproach) Joe(forget his screenname, hahaha) and I were all at PHL, right under the planes taking off and landing, and heck, we could even talk without shouting. These people so badly overexagerate their "poor sad situation" that it seems like US Airways is doing bombing runs over their neighborhood or something. Look, I live right under the 27 approaches, and even being an aviation fan, not a sole person I know has ever complained. That's just because you get used to it. It's not that big a deal. People live with car traffic every day, and they do the same for air traffic. These people that are whining just want media attention, and gathering together in groups makes them feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Mike


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3720 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 10):
''They fly so low I can read the numbers on the planes,'' Amy Pollock, 43, who lives in Ardencroft, Delaware,

In case anyone is wondering, that's about 12.5 miles WSW of PHL...


User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7482 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3706 times:

Quoting Jalto27R (Reply 12):
Ed (PHLApproach) Joe(forget his screenname, hahaha) and I were all at PHL

Mike,

Joe's screen name is Wagz. I would've loved to have headed out & joined you all there but as I told Joe, we got get the 60% Construction Document package on the 17-35 extension ready to be submitted to the DOA before mid-week.

I wonder how many of the younger critics (under 50) that griped about airplane noises wouldn't think anything of a much noisier dance club or rock concert setting where the music is constantly blasting your ears off for 2 to 3 hours straight.

I have one word for them... hypocrites. I wonder how many of them gripe about their vacation or business trip flights being delayed or stuck on the taxiways for 20 to 45 minutes waiting for takeoff. Hmmmmm.   

[Edited 2005-10-17 00:58:23]


"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21419 posts, RR: 60
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3678 times:

Wilmington is way too far away to matter. So's the 2000ft lady. Both are MAKING IT UP.

I live near the flight path for BUR and Van Nuys, and only occasionally is there a plane loud enough to hear in a manner that comes close to a nuisance. It's always an old business jet that doesn't meet Stage III, or a low flying propellor plane (one just flew over).

I live closer to BUR than these people, and the planes aren't at 2000 (though I don't know how PHL works). And Stage III/IV planes at that distance on approach are quiet! They aren't going to shake the dentures out of your mouth. On takeoff, if you live 12 miles away and the plane is at 2000ft, Houston, we have a problem.

The loudest, most annoying things around are the traffic helicopters leaving out of Van Nuys. They are even worse flying over the Santa Monica mountains, taking shortcuts over residential neighborhoods at a few hundred feet above the ground versus flying over the freeway passes.

And I can vouch for the freeway noise thing. I live 10 blocks from the 405, and even in the dead of night, if I go into the front yard, it's loud. Much more of a nuisance than planes.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineRedngold From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 6907 posts, RR: 45
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3646 times:

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 2):
``I go to sleep to the roar of airplanes flying over my house and I wake up to the same roar,'' said Edward Vanderslice, 67, a retired machinist from Wilmington, Delaware.

He's probably hearing those noisy ANG flights from ILM, not passenger aircraft from PHL.  hissyfit 



Up, up and away!
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7482 posts, RR: 24
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3632 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 15):
Wilmington is way too far away to matter. So's the 2000ft lady. Both are MAKING IT UP.

A 2000ft. lady? That'd be a sight to see.  Silly

In all seriousness, on 9R approaches, the planes do indeed pass over Wilmington and basically run parallel w/I-95. Someone commenting on planes flying lower than usual on landing approaches is a legitimate concern.

As I stated in the other thread, I along with a co-worker who's an airport planner and had many years experience as an airport manager for some of the smaller airports attended Sept. 22 FAA meeting regarding the PHL-CEP-EIS held in Folsom, PA; the night following the Sept. 21 Delaware meeting. Before the actual meeting took place, my co-worker was talking w/one of the FAA officials (might've been Susan MacDonald). From what my co-worker was told, the Delaware meeting was a fairly lively meeting in which most of the concerns were regarding existing noise as opposed to the impact that the 3 actual proposals would have. My co-worker mentioned to Susan that some pilots do sometimes come in a little lower than the FAA ceiling (which would increase noise on the ground) even on a clear weather day and that when he was a manager for a small airport (I forget which one) and when a similar issue came up, the pilots and/or the airlines would be notified and the low approaches would stop within 30 days... problem solved. However, he stated that with a smaller airport; everybody (airport officials, airline pilots, airport employees) knew eachother and things were addressed more quickly. But with an airport operation the size of PHL, that's no small task (how many different pilots are there?). I guess the Delaware meeting turned out to be a catch-all resident gripe fest.

Where I take issue with the NIMBYs is the fact that (as many A.netters mentioned here) they are equating the current noise problems as if airlines were still flying noisy (non-hushkitted) DC-9s & 727s. This is probably the perception from most of the older (55+) residents. The fact that they moved into an area knowing full well that they were either near an airport or under its approach that existed for generations and yet they gripe about the noise. As I stated before, I wonder how many of them on a return flight to PHL that was approaching 9R would look out the port-side windows and say, "Hey, I can see my house from here!" They're probably not thinking about the noise then.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineUALPHLCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3591 times:

I line under the flight path of 17/35 on the Jersey side. Planes fly over all the time. I get MORE noise from the Jersey Turnpike than I do from the airplanes.

I go back to my original statement, PHL was there first. People CHOOSE to live under a flight path, if you don't want to live there move it's a free country. Most people however, don't even notice the noise.


User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2910 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3581 times:

If I recall, US reg planes don't have regs placed under the wing, so unless ones has serious binoculars, its kind of hard to read them off.

User currently offline7E72004 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3582 times:

if you live there long enough...most people will get used to it...much like living by the "L" in Chicago...at some point you will just be able to "fade it out." My grand parents used to live in New Jersy just under the flight path of the C-141s or those huge jets that would fly over for practice in/out of McGuire Air Force Base....and i got used to them when i would visit...kind of cool actually  Smile


The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3531 times:

Vega, just for you... by request... (I was out of town and away from a.net all weekend)

Quote:


Some expansion opponents suggest that Philadelphia bring planes in along the Delaware River or divert traffic to regional airports such as Lehigh International near Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, or Atlantic City, New Jersey.

Vanderslice had a more radical solution: ``We need another airport.''

I agree with Vanderslice, but the problem is where to put the damned thing. ABE is just too far for PHL residents/businessmen. Sure you'd get the WN-lover types who'll drive 60 miles to save a dollar, but the transportation issues for normal people from within the city limits of PHL and the general Philly area business centers to drive up to ABE are too overwhelming... the same as people like me won't regularly drive down to PHL from the Lehigh Valley. I-476/Turnpike NE Ext./Blue Route (whatever you want to call it) sucks, especially south of Quakertown. Likewise, US 22/Lehigh Valley Thruway which would get those people from the Turnpike to ABE is already extremely overcrowded with no room to widen it (an ongoing debate here in the Valley) The money it would cost for a rail system all the way up to the Lehigh Valley is probably more than building a new PHL (Bulldozing another chunk out of South Mountain would be a bit expensive, and the existing I-476 right of way isn't wide enough to even add lanes to, let alone parallel a rail line, even here in the Lehigh Valley areas of Emmaus/Lower Macungie/ Whitehall.. let alone down in the Blue Route areas of PHL in the tighter spots).

The only saving grace I could see, short term, for PHL, would be that well-beaten A.net rumor of WN skipping town and going to either ABE or ACY. We definitely have the room for them here at ABE, and their customers are the types who'll drive long distances... after all... look at the airports they serve New York City from (of which ABE would be another one, too). Otherwise remember, this is the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Regardless of Ed Rendell's plans for Slot Machine revenues... the state just doesn't have the money for a new PHL, they don't even have money to properly finish half-built highways like the Mon-Fayette Expressway/Southern Beltway south of Pittsburgh or widen US 22/Lehigh Valley Thruway here... and Philly isn't known for sitting on mountains of cash either. You'd need one of the other counties, like Delaware, Bucks, or Chester to float the bonds and build the new airport... and in any area of affluence you'd hit too much NIMBY-ism, not to mention you'd need highway access.


User currently offlineRunway27Right From United States of America, joined May 2004, 131 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3478 times:

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 18):
go back to my original statement, PHL was there first. People CHOOSE to live under a flight path, if you don't want to live there move it's a free country. Most people however, don't even notice the noise

Have you seen some of those people? Some of them are older than PHL  Smile
But if they move, I'll buy! Aircraft sound is music to my ears, burning rubber & jet fuel, a bouquet to my nose.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 21):
The only saving grace I could see, short term, for PHL, would be that well-beaten A.net rumor of WN skipping town and going to either ABE or ACY

If WN did leave PHL (their not), that wouldn't solve a thing. The problem existed before WN arrived. I'm still on record stating that MORE GATES ARE NEEDED!

Quoting Jalto27R (Reply 12):
I can read the numbers of the PHL aircraft landing from the 27's at my house, and they're at 2,100

OK Mike, since you can read the Regs at your house, I expect a report on the PHL Yahoo Group, ha ha.



Keeping PHL Spotting Alive Daily!
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7482 posts, RR: 24
Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3449 times:

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 19):
If I recall, US reg planes don't have regs placed under the wing, so unless ones has serious binoculars, its kind of hard to read them off.

Some of the USx CRJs (not sure which regional carrier(s)) have the reg. no. listed along the upper-end of the grey underbelly; so it can be easily read just by looking up.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3434 times:

Quoting Runway27Right (Reply 21):
MORE GATES ARE NEEDED!

But then the planes still can't land nor take off efficiently, so who cares how many gates you have??? All that would do is add more to the line.


User currently offlineUALPHLCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3410 times:

Quoting Runway27Right (Reply 21):
I'm still on record stating that MORE GATES ARE NEEDED!

You don't understand the fundemental problem then. I've seen nights were gates are open becasue it takes 20 minutes for a plane that landed to negotiate through the traffic to get to the gates.

I've seen nights were 60 planes are in line for takeoff.

We can get people on and off the planes just fine with the gates PHL has, We just can't get them of the ground quick enough. The process has to be streamlined in a major way. As it is I'll be well into middle age by the time PHL is fixed by the FAA's timetable.

[Edited 2005-10-17 16:23:27]

25 Tornado82 : Exactly. Can't get them onto the ground quickly either, if it's an IFR type of day, or windy.
26 PHLBOS : The single taxilane layout between most of the terminals (A-East, B, C, D, & E) doesn't exactly help matters either. I've been on a couple of flights
27 Post contains links and images Runway27right : Spending as much time at PHL as I do, I understand fully. I can't count how many times I've heard ATC telling multiple flights (mostly US) that there
28 Post contains images PHLBOS : Paul, I hope the anti-airport-exansion folks and NIMBYs don't see that photo; neither the FAA nor DOA told them that 757s were going to use 17-35.  
29 PHLapproach : I'm gonna talk to the guys I know down at the Tracon/Tower soon about what they think can be done. I really think the whole runway issue can be eased
30 Wagz : Leave it to Ed and his ATC-orreineted mind to come up with good ideas. Chris, how much runway is there supposed to be between the new end 17 threshold
31 UALPHLCS : Actually I'm glad someone caught a picture of it being done. That's not the first time I've seen a 757 on 17/35. I've seen every aircraft up to the 7
32 Post contains images PHLBOS : IIRC, Ed (PHLApproach) mentioned in an earlier thread that he did see a Hooters Air 757 do a 35 landing a few months back. I wonder if that plane and
33 Post contains images Boeing7E7 : You guys really need to stop that scud running you've been doing.
34 US AIRWAYS : Usually when I have some downtime at work I like to go sit outside on F24 and watch the traffic. The first time I saw a 757 roar past in full reverse
35 PHLBOS : A 734 is one thing, since it's not that much larger than a 733 or 73G; but a 757... Joe phrased it rather nicely:
36 Runway27Right : That's was the 3rd time I've seen a 757 land on 35. The winds were @310 at 10-15 gusts to 22. I couldn't tell how full the plane was. I presume you me
37 PHLBOS : All 'protected wetlands' means is that if you want to build something, be prepared to spend a lot of money and time to go through the permitting proc
38 Runway27Right : Chris, The two signs that were posted. One was as the old access road (which is still there) made its turn towards the approach lights. The other was
39 Tornado82 : Especially in PA, where even the state DOT has to pay the state DEP (Dept. of Environmental Protection) if they want to do roadway embankment rehabil
40 Post contains links Nkops : http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/n...ersey/story/5633248p-5650051c.html This article was in the Atlantic City Press 2 days ago. ACY wants to relieve
41 PHLBOS : From the article: SJTA officials agree, and on Tuesday broke ground for a $7.1 million baggage-screening facility. The facility will house baggage-scr
42 Nkops : True... but it also depends on the SJTA's ability to attract service.. ACY is known for getting and losing service (UA , US , TW , CO 2x , NW). Right
43 Vega : Wonder why they don't consider using New Castle (Wilmington) as a reliever - especially for the commuter traffic. It has a 7000' and I believe that s
44 PHLBOS : For a brief period during the '90s, Shuttle America had scheduled service at ILG. But again, having a 7000' runway is one thing; having a place to pa
45 Tornado82 : As PHLBOS rightly says... Much of the basis of the PHL commuter traffic is connections. There's no way that especially US could ever move operations
46 Crownvic : nkops...I only hope that they do something with the rudest airport security people that I have ever encountered. On my last trip there, some jerk in a
47 Nkops : Welcome to my world!!! It's not all the security people who are like that, but there are a few. It's a shame they have to be like that, and I apologi
48 RC135U : Are they overzealous because of the large FAA presence at ACY?
49 Nkops : I don't believe so... the majority of the FAA facility there is for experimental purposes. Our inspectors actually come from PHL area. I think they a
50 Crownvic : Nkops...Actually, It was the SJTA employees and nobody from PHL or from the inside terminal operations area. This was outside along the access road an
51 Post contains images MD11LuxuryLinr : I know it can be done too. It's a great idea and PHL used this way back when during certain times of the day. The problem is where the aircraft go af
52 Post contains images PHLapproach : Well they used to run the SAPR (Simultaneous Approaches to Parallel Runways) now SAPR1. Back about 2 years ago they ran that operation pretty often,
53 Post contains images MD11LuxuryLinr : Aww, c'mon Ed, you gotta give me a bit more credit than that. I lived on the tower's freq every chance I had starting in '91. Obviously Laura is corr
54 Post contains links PHLBOS : Ed, Last year when the diagonal runway layout plan was still around; the FAA & DOA did indeed face a major yelling match during a presentation meetin
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