OdiE From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1641 posts, RR: 1 Posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2369 times:
I have an upcoming flight with Air Canada (codeshare with United) from Miami to Los Angeles via Toronto, Canada. Does anyone know what are the immigration/custom procedures on one of these flights? Do I need to clear Canadian and American immigration and custom in Toronto? Thanx!
Jcded From Switzerland, joined Jan 2004, 211 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 2305 times:
thats an interesting routing, its borderline illegal because of Freedom VII Cabotage (even though 2 flight sgments). The only way they can get away with it is because it is a codeshare with United treating it as US metal. However I would like to know the legal specifics of this, normally reservation systems will avoid flights like this.
MarshalN From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2005, 1521 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 2232 times:
I believe there's some law that bars airlines from carrying domestic pax, and in this case he's a domestic pax in reality even though he's transferring through YYZ.
And man.... you're flying lots of extra hours for this flight. You better have a good reason to do this!
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31117 posts, RR: 74 Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 2137 times:
Quoting Cgagn (Reply 4): Quoting Jcded (Reply 3):
its borderline illegal because of Freedom VII Cabotage
Could someone explain to me how that's bordering on illegal. Did I miss a thread where that was explained? Thanx
It is cabatoge - a foreign airline carrying a passenger between two domestic points. However, since the ticket is booked with UA codeshares, it is okay.
OdiE From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1641 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 1995 times:
I am actually flying on UA's code (hence it will not violate Freedom VII Cabotage).
This routing is considerably cheaper than say via PHL (which is further than YYZ), IAD, DEN or ORD. I could fly via PHL for the same price, but I would need to fly out of MIA at around 7 am then (and I am flying on Nov. 27 - one of the busiest travel days in the US).
Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 6): Oh, come on - I'd fly this routing for the chance to say I'd transferred through Toronto!!
Word!
Quoting Ahlfors (Reply 1): Yes, you'll need to clear both Canadian and American immigration and customs, and this will all be done at Toronto.
I was just hoping that I would need to clear immigration and not customs as my baggage is going to end up in America anyway.
ETStar From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 9 Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 1968 times:
C-A-B-B-O-T-A-G-E
Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 6): Oh, come on - I'd fly this routing for the chance to say I'd transferred through Toronto!! Big grin
I always knew you fancied our country In all seriousness though, if it were legal, it would have only cost us an arm and a leg to go from Vancouver - Toronto. We currently also have to give in our liver and kidneys.
Quoting OdiE (Reply 9): I am actually flying on UA's code (hence it will not violate Freedom VII Cabotage).
Very interesting. Care to share the rates? Would love to know, and will definitely look at similar rates from Canada - Canada for next time.... hmmmm YVR-SEA-YYC? aaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh...
Flyboy7974 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 1540 posts, RR: 2 Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 1931 times:
years and years ago when i was in high, oh wow, well, i had booked a ticket like this to fly lax-cmh on air canada with a connection through toronto. knowing this was weird, but wanting to fly air canada and their only 747 flight at the time lax-yyz, i booked it on a travel website. when i got to the airport, you would have thought the sky was falling, and after almost two hours, (and missing the flight) and many phone calls made, the routing was not allowed, i was rebooked on ua to which i was bumped and then rebooked on delta. all in all, simply due to international and border regs i wasnt allowed to travel usa-usa with a connection outside of the usa.
OdiE From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1641 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 1883 times:
Quoting ETStar (Reply 11): Very interesting. Care to share the rates?
My roundtrip from LAX to MIA (inbound to FLL, out from MIA) cost me around $550. Flights that go via PHL/IAD will cost me around $700-$800.
Quoting Flyboy7974 (Reply 12): all in all, simply due to international and border regs i wasnt allowed to travel usa-usa with a connection outside of the usa.
Alphascan From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 936 posts, RR: 14 Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 1839 times:
Years and years ago....when Flyboy tried this.....there was no code share. That is the difference.
However, I am surprised the pilot unions at (especially) AC and UA would allow this to happen. It is cabotage (cabbotage?) plain and simple.
"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
Bmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2081 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1737 times:
Quoting Ahlfors (Reply 1): Yes, you'll need to clear both Canadian and American immigration and customs, and this will all be done at Toronto.
Why would you have to clear Canadian immigration when you're not leaving the airport? The MIA flight would be in the US departure area, the same as the incoming LAX flight....
The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
Airbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 6873 posts, RR: 7 Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 1693 times:
Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 17): Why would you have to clear Canadian immigration when you're not leaving the airport?
Believe it or not Canada and the USA are 2 different countries therefore MIA-YYZ-LAX is made up of 2 international flights. And since YYZ does not have a segregated transfer zone you need to clear customs/immigration when you arrive in YYZ from MIA, and then proceed to US customs/immigration pre-clearance prior to boarding your flight into the US.
Besides the hassle of having to do this, you get a double whammy on international taxes/fees added to your ticket. So this can't possibly be a very cheap alternative unless AC keeps their base fares artificially low to make up for the difference.
AlekToronto From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 328 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 1565 times:
You and your bags will definetly have to clear both Canadian and US Customs in Toronto. Depending on the time of day this will be painless or painful.
I would love to see the look on the Canadian customs goon..
Q: Where are you flying in from?
A: the USA
Q: Purpose of trip to Canada?
A: Just to transfer to a flight to the US.
I still get strange and jealous looks from Customs when coming back to Toronto after 2 days in Miami or 1 day in NYC.
Sebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1658 posts, RR: 15 Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 1563 times:
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 18): Believe it or not Canada and the USA are 2 different countries therefore MIA-YYZ-LAX is made up of 2 international flights. And since YYZ does not have a segregated transfer zone you need to clear customs/immigration when you arrive in YYZ from MIA, and then proceed to US customs/immigration pre-clearance prior to boarding your flight into the US.
Besides the hassle of having to do this, you get a double whammy on international taxes/fees added to your ticket. So this can't possibly be a very cheap alternative unless AC keeps their base fares artificially low to make up for the difference.
As best as I know, UA should not be selling domestic travel via Canada. The Canada-US bilateral does not allow for this. AC would like to negotiate such a provision for obvious reasons, because a Canadian carrier with lots of U.S. spokes could combine them into domestic connecting services and compete with U.S. domestic operators. I suspect UA's computer system has created (let's assume unknowingly) illegal pairings. UA won't complain. AC won't complain (UA sometimes uses AC lift, it's money in AC's pocket). And yes, at an airport like Toronto, if you stay in the sterile zone, you never enter Canadian territory and can re-board a U.S. bound connecting flight without passing through customs.
I do wonder if UA includes all appropriate taxes for a transborder combination, or if it is taxed like a domestic flight. For example is the local AIF included? Canadian and US security taxes? (Any taxes applicable for a transborder flight should be included).
N1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 25852 posts, RR: 79 Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 1520 times:
Quoting AlekToronto (Reply 20): I would love to see the look on the Canadian customs goon..
I much prefer Canadian customs agents (at least the bilingual girl at the Detroit-Windsow tunnel) to the US idiots who think I would take fresh fruits and vegetables from the UK to Southern California
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
MarshalN From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2005, 1521 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 1478 times:
Quoting N1120A (Reply 22): I much prefer Canadian customs agents (at least the bilingual girl at the Detroit-Windsow tunnel) to the US idiots who think I would take fresh fruits and vegetables from the UK to Southern California
EXACTLY! I've also gotten weird looks from people when they see my tea. I am a heavy drinker, and have packs and packs of tea with me whenever I travel back from Hong Kong/China. Tea, afaik, is allowed. They always think it's some other grass though (like I'll be carrying it in those packaging...). It's happened twice, and both times I just said "want me to brew you a cup?".
But anyway... YYZ is a bit of a pain to transfer. I don't like the airport much... YVR is way better
Goaliemn From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 463 posts, RR: 3 Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 1444 times:
Quoting AlekToronto (Reply 20): I still get strange and jealous looks from Customs when coming back to Toronto after 2 days in Miami or 1 day in NYC.
I have a Canpass and love it.. eliminates any strange looks when going to yyz 2-3 times a month for pleasure
25 PlaneGuy27: This tickets must be booked separately as it is completely illegal to sell a seat between two domestic points in the US. Even though it is a codeshare
26 N1120A: Tea is allowed and you handled them just the right way. It was sold by United as a United flight on Air Canada's metal, not by Air Canada.
27 N328KF: This isn't so strange. There was an article in the WSJ about how Delta was flying people from the Atlantic Provinces to places like Vancouver through
28 Mikephotos: The fares do include the add'l taxes: 1 UA8537Y 20OCT Q MIAYYZ SS1 200P 459P /DCUA /E OPERATED BY AIR CANADA 2 UA8323Y 20OCT Q YYZLAX SS1 825P 1034P /
29 Starlionblue: Well the only reason you have to clear Canadian immigration is there is no sterile zone. If this were LHR, the UK immigrations people wouldn't give a
30 Robsawatsky: Quite irrelevant. The law applies to the "vessel". The codeshare is a commercial relationship between AC and UA that the law has no concern for. UA c
31 N1120A: Then how do you explain various wet leases around the world that do international flights between countries that the wet leasing agent is non a citiz
32 Kiwiandrew: no - when you look at the fare below it definitely shows as a through fare MIA x/YTO LAX rather than as MIA YTO and YTO LAX
33 Feroze: cab·o·tage Audio pronunciation of "cabotage" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kb-täzh) n. 1. Trade or navigation in coastal waters. 2. The exclusive right
34 Odie: My taxes for my LAX-ORD-FLL//MIA-YYZ-LAX flight is $84.04. It's a UA coded flight and this flight is significantly cheaper than other UA/US flights th
35 Sebring: Hold the presses. I asked an AC contact and got this response. It is perfectly legal for UA to sell any domestic routing, even via a Canadian airport
36 MarshalN: Don't they need the passport anyway to get through the Canadian customs?
37 Sebring: No, because they can switch flights in the sterile zone of Canadian airports. That's tantamount to US territory. However, I'd still take a passport.
38 OdiE: I e-mailed Air Canada and didn't get a response from them! Thanx for the info!
39 Expatmatt: A few years ago (1999 or 2000), I used my UA miles to get a free ticket for DCA-ORD-MIA. When I got to DCA, I found out that because of weather in ORD
40 Flyboy7974: no, when i booked the ticket, it was booked as one, that's why i was surprised that the computer even allowed it, and then i got nabbed at check-in
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