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AA United TWA And US Airways  
User currently offlineSnn2003 From United States of America, joined May 2001, 298 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5070 times:

I was looking through old issues of Air Transport World from 2001 and I saw a few items I thought were interesting.

When TWA was bought out by AA they had A318’s and A320’s on order? Does anyone know how many and when the order was originally placed?

And in another article they were talking about after the buyout of TWA; AA and UA were planning on splitting up US Airways? Why did that fall through? From the article it sounded like a sure thing. Thanks guys

~Gage


One way, IAH-RTB please! No return ticket required.
18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineRogerThat From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 566 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5044 times:

The US govt wouldn't permit UA and US to hook up because they would be too powerful. Just look at them now.

User currently offlineWhataboutme From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 173 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4961 times:

Quoting Snn2003 (Thread starter):
When TWA was bought out by AA they had A318’s and A320’s on order? Does anyone know how many and when the order was originally placed?

Actually I believe it was the A319 that was on order.


User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4995 posts, RR: 21
Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4924 times:

Quoting Whataboutme (Reply 2):


Actually I believe it was the A319 that was on order

No, A318. With options on "A320" family. The initial deliveries were to be A318.



Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
User currently offlineAbirdA From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 289 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4906 times:

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 3):
No, A318. With options on "A320" family. The initial deliveries were to be A318.

Not doubting your information; I've heard it countless times. But I'v always wondered what purpose the A318 was supposed to serve at TWA, given their large and only slightly earlier 717 order. Any insights?


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26354 posts, RR: 76
Reply 5, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4904 times:

Quoting Snn2003 (Thread starter):
AA and UA were planning on splitting up US Airways? Why did that fall through?

The main issue in the UA/US deal was UA's potential dominance on the east coast, particularly out of DCA. One deal that was proposed, and almost pushed through, was a new airline out of DCA called DC Air (that would be owned by Robert Johnson, the founder of BET) that would take a bunch of the combined United's slots and would buy or lease F100s from AA to run. The DOT saw DC Air as merely a mask for continuted control by UA and called no dice on the deal

Quoting Whataboutme (Reply 2):
Quoting Snn2003 (Thread starter):
When TWA was bought out by AA they had A318’s and A320’s on order? Does anyone know how many and when the order was originally placed?

Actually I believe it was the A319 that was on order.

Actually, TWA had A330s on order, which made no sense given their relatively new 767 fleet at the time. Some proposed that they trade their order of A330s with US for a 767 order made by them.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineWhataboutme From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 173 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4873 times:

Thanks everyone I thought it was the A319. I did not know about the A330. I do you they had orders for the 777, cause from what I understand that TWA got the route to fly STL-NRT, but it do not fly it cause they did not have the aircraft and the T7 was to be the aircraft used. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Peace Out


User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4995 posts, RR: 21
Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4845 times:

Quoting Whataboutme (Reply 6):


Actually, TWA had A330s on order,

And they were on the books for years. The A318 deal was more or less a way to get out of the A330 deal without penalties. the 318's were going to be used for long-thin routes past the range of the 717.

Eventually, the A320 family would have replaced the MD80's...WAY down the road.



Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7509 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4833 times:

Quoting AbirdA (Reply 4):
But I'v always wondered what purpose the A318 was supposed to serve at TWA, given their large and only slightly earlier 717 order. Any insights?

TW may have been looking for a small plane that had a longer range than the 717 could offer.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 5):
Actually, TWA had A330s on order, which made no sense given their relatively new 767 fleet at the time.

I didn't know about TW ordering any A330s. I wonder if the TW A330/A318 orders were part of an all-encompassing deal w/Airbus: Order the A318 and we'll throw in some A330s. or Order the A330 and we'll throw in some A318s.

In retrospect, I could see the A318 order possible (although the larger A319 would've made more sense IMHO) but the A330?

One possible thought:

With TW's small to mid-size mainline fleet being mostly MDDs and derivatives (DC-9, MD-80, 717), I wonder if the long-defunct Airbii order was Airbus' way of throwing TW a bone in response to the Boeing-McDonnell Douglas merger. Airbus probably knew that with Boeing purchasing MDD; production of most if not all of the MDD planes and derivatives would eventually be phased out or killed off. With the 717 line closing this summer; that prediction unfortunately is coming true.  Sad



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineDETA737 From Portugal, joined Oct 2000, 612 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4815 times:

TWA originally ordered 10 A330-300s with options for 10 more in 1989 I believe and they were supposed to enter service around 1992. However, TWA filed for bankruptcy and the order kept on being continually deferred. They were meant to replace the 747 classics on routes like JFK-LHR, JFK-MAD etc. However, TWA originally had problems with the range since they could not make it to Athens or Tel Aviv from JFK. With the gradual erosion of TWA's Transatlantic network throughout the 1990s the need for these planes diminished and 767-300ERs were flying the Transatlantic routes by the late 1990s.

However, since TWA still had the order on the books in 2000 they announced that they were instead ordering 50 A318s that would come into service beginning in 2003. These were apparently meant to fly long thin routes because they had the range that the 717s did not. There was also an order for 25 A319s and A320s that were supposed to begin arriving in 2005, the exact mix was to be set at a later date.

Around this time TWA was planning to be a leaner more efficient airline after Karabu ended in 2003. There was speculation that TWA was going to return to some of their European routes and the A318s were to feed the JFK hub. Also, they were in the process of expanding their Caribbean and Mexican routes. The A319s and A320s were apparently to begin replacing the older MD-80s in the fleet.

As for the 777s I know TWA was interested in them, but never actually ordered any. By 2000 there were really too few routes that could warrant such a plane and second-hand 767-300ERs were the way TWA was going longhaul as the older 767-200s were slowly being phased out. STL-NRT was scheduled to begin in 1997 with a 767-200ER but TWA never got the slots so they held the authority but never started the route, especially after the Asian economic crisis.


User currently offlineIowa744Fan From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 931 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4807 times:

Quoting Snn2003 (Thread starter):
When TWA was bought out by AA they had A318’s and A320’s on order? Does anyone know how many and when the order was originally placed?

For some reason, the number 35 sticks in my mind, but please don't hold me to that. As mentioned, they had options for the 320 and had placed an order/options for the 330. It would have been interesting seeing them operating both the 717 and the 318.


Quite a bit of the US fleet was to be split up between AA and UA as well. There were talks of incorporating the TWA fleet too. The main issues here hinged on similar engine/aircraft types. There was talk about UA taking TWA's fleet of 757s and 763s because they were PW powered like UA's fleet. From the US fleet, AA was going to take the F100 (plus some to DC Air as mentioned above) the few MD-80s, and US's 757s which were RR powered like AA's. It seemed like a good idea since it would have allowed each airline (AA and UA) to group together similar aircraft and engine types.

Also as alluded to, the east coast was the big area of concern. Particularly areas like Washington, D.C. where UA was the dominant carrier at IAD and US at DCA. They had talked about the DC Air option above and allowing UA to focus upon IAD and just fly to DCA from major hubs in the area. I think that the Shuttle was to have gone to AA either directly or via DC Air. For some reason, I thought that there were plans for the NYC airports as well, but I cannot remember. My apologies if I made a mistake or two here, but a couple of things I am pretty sure about, but not 100 percent certain.


User currently offlineBHMNONREV From Australia, joined Aug 2003, 1368 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 4765 times:

Quoting DETA737 (Reply 9):
in 2000 they announced that they were instead ordering 50 A318s that would come into service beginning in 2003. These were apparently meant to fly long thin routes because they had the range that the 717s did not.

Correct. The plan was to use the 717 on high-frequency short-haul out of STL, with the A318's serving east and west coast cities from the STL hub.

Quoting DETA737 (Reply 9):
There was also an order for 25 A319s and A320s that were supposed to begin arriving in 2005, the exact mix was to be set at a later date.

In the mid-to-late 90's, someone at Trans World decided an all Airbus fleet was to be the way to go, with the A320 family running domestic operations and the A330 doing trans-atlantic. This certainly never materialized but it would have been a strange sight to see all TW Airbuses at Lambert Field...


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11408 posts, RR: 62
Reply 12, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 4749 times:

Quoting Iowa744Fan (Reply 10):
I think that the Shuttle was to have gone to AA either directly or via DC Air.

No, per the terms of the AA/TW-UA/US agreement, AA and UA were to split the BOS-LGA-DCA shuttle 50/50, with each operating half the flights and pooling revenue and coordinating schedules and services on the route.


User currently offlineDETA737 From Portugal, joined Oct 2000, 612 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 4696 times:

Here's a copy of the press release from TWA's website. I'm such a dork I still have all this stuff from their website including press releases.

TWA orders 125 aircraft
Orders for Boeing and Airbus aircraft also include options or an additional 125 narrow-bodies
ST. LOUIS, Mo. - Trans World Airlines, Inc. Dec. 9 announced orders and options for 250 state-of-the-art, new technology aircraft, the largest aircraft order in TWA history.
TWA has signed letters of intent to acquire 50 Boeing 717-200 aircraft for delivery beginning in February, 2000; 50 Airbus A318 aircraft for delivery beginning in 2003; and 25 Airbus "A320 Family" aircraft for delivery beginning in 2005. The A320 Family includes the A318, A319, A320 and A321 models; TWA will select the exact mix of A320 family aircraft that will comprise the 25 aircraft in the order at a later date.
In addition to the 125 firm orders, TWA has taken options on an additional 50 Boeing 717s and an additional 75 A320 Family aircraft.The B717s will be powered by BR715 engines manufactured by BMW Rolls Royce. The A318s will be powered by the newly-designed PW6000 engines manufactured by Pratt & Whitney. Engines for A320 Family aircraft other than the A318 have not been selected.
TWA has secured financing for all of the firm order airframes and engines.
"The management of TWA is focused on securing and building this airline's future. One way we do this is by securing for our people the very best tools with which they can do business. Our agreements with Airbus and Boeing will provide those tools and will fashion our narrow-body aircraft acquisition program for the next decade," said Gerald L. Gitner, chairman and chief executive officer.
"The aircraft in these orders, when delivered, will complete the revitalization of our narrow-body fleet that began in 1996 with the delivery of our first 757 and continues today. In 1999, TWA will receive 37 previously-ordered new Boeing aircraft, including 24 MD83s, 12 757s and one 767-300 - on average, more than one new aircraft every ten days. We have retired our 747 and L1011 fleets and will have the opportunity to retire the 727 fleet as early as the end of 1999. By the end of 1999, TWA will have replaced at least 42 percent of the fleet since 1996," Gitner said.
"TWA's previous aircraft orders are reducing TWA's average aircraft age from more than 19 years in 1996 to 11.3 years on New Year's Day, 2000. The new orders announced today will continually reduce average aircraft age, to 10.3 years by the start of 2003 and 7.3 years by the start of 2007. TWA is building one of the most modern fleets in the airline industry," Gitner said.
"This aircraft order will enable TWA to continue its fleet renewal through the first decade of the next century with modern, state-of-the-art aircraft, as well as provide TWA the opportunity to grow our fleet," said William F. Compton, president and chief operating officer. "Each of the aircraft models in this order has a particular and important role to play in TWA's future."
TWA currently is one of the world's largest operators of DC9 aircraft. The new B717 in TWA's configuration will upgrade and replace the DC9, offering improved range and payload characteristics in a state-of-the-art, environmentally friendly new aircraft. TWA expects the B717 to deliver a 35 percent direct operating cost advantage over the DC9. TWA plans to operate 30 previously hushkitted DC9s after the Stage III conversion deadline of Dec. 31, 1999. As the B717s enter the fleet the DC9s will be phased out by 2005.
TWA plans to configure its 717 aircraft with 111 passengers seats including 16 in the Trans World First cabin and 95 in the main cabin.
"The 717 is an ideally suited full-size, high-frequency hub airliner that will serve the heart of America from our St. Louis hub, allowing TWA to provide new services economically to new North American cities from the Rockies eastward to the Atlantic, as well as from New York to destinations throughout the eastern half of North America," Compton said.TWA will be the first airline customer for the A318 and the PW6000 engine. The A318 will be Airbus's newest model, incorporating all of Airbus's renowned technology and powered by Pratt & Whitney's newest engine, the PW6000. TWA plans to configure the A318 for 110 passengers, including 16 in the Trans World First cabin and 94 in the main cabin. The A318 cabin will include all the amenities to which passengers have become accustomed in the cabins of other A320 Family aircraft.
From TWA's St. Louis hub the medium-range A318 will be able to reach any destination in the 48 contiguous United States, Canada or Mexico; from New York, it will be able to fly to any U.S. or Canadian destination east of the Rockies. The A318's 110-seat capacity with approximately 2,000 mile range will enable TWA to use the aircraft to open new markets and add frequency on longer, thinner routes from St. Louis, New York and other cities throughout TWA's North American network.
"For many important destinations on the West Coast, for example, our 142-seat MD83s are too large to deploy with the amount of frequency business travelers require. The new A318 will allow TWA to address this need. It will offer the size and range to enable TWA to serve many of these destinations more economically from our St. Louis hub. As the St. Louis airport is expanded - about the time the A318s begin arriving - our hub schedule will be able to grow with the airport. Additionally, the A318s will be available to replace some of our older MD80s as leases on those aircraft expire, and will support fleet growth as our markets evolve and grow," Compton said.
Under TWA's agreement with Airbus, the twenty-five A320 Family aircraft are scheduled for delivery in 2005-2007.
"This fleet plan using Airbus and Boeing aircraft gives TWA the flexibility to reevaluate our narrow-body fleet plan periodically, knowing that we can adjust the orders to provide the aircraft we need, whether that need is for more 100-seaters to support TWA's hub operations or off-hub flying, or for larger aircraft to replace or supplement various 140 to 180 seat planes coming off lease in the coming decade," Gitner said.
"We couldn't be more pleased that TWA chose the 717 for its high frequency routes," said Alan Mulally, Boeing Commercial Airplanes president. "This decision is particularly meaningful to us because TWA looked at all its options, and ultimately they chose the 717 for its low operating costs and overall value it provides." "We're very pleased that TWA, a pioneer in introducing new aircraft, is the first airline to commit to the new A318," said NoÎl Forgeard, Airbus Industrie's chief executive officer. "The A320 Family is a perfect fit for TWA's expanding route system. It also offers the flexibility to answer the airline's 100-to-185 seat requirements."
"We are thrilled that TWA, a Pratt & Whitney customer almost from the time our company was founded, is once again building its future with Pratt power," said Karl J. Krapek, Pratt & Whitney president. "We want TWA to know that every one of us at Pratt is committed to making the PW6000 the industry leader in cost, performance and reliability."
"TWA's order for 50 Boeing 717-200 twinjets is a breakthrough for our BR715 engines in the airline market. This agreement with TWA will send a signal to interested airlines world-wide," said Dr. Klaus Nittinger, chairman of BMW Rolls Royce. "As a major supplier and partner in the aircraft program, we are proud to contribute with the reliability and the economical, ecological performance of the BR715 to this market success."
TWA flies approximately two million passengers per month on more than 800 daily flights to 90 destinations in America, the Caribbean, Europe and the Middle East. Frequent Flyer/J.D. Power & Associates recently named TWA the number one airline in 1998 in customer satisfaction for long flights, meaning domestic flights of 500 miles or more.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26354 posts, RR: 76
Reply 14, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 4672 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 12):
No, per the terms of the AA/TW-UA/US agreement, AA and UA were to split the BOS-LGA-DCA shuttle 50/50, with each operating half the flights and pooling revenue and coordinating schedules and services on the route.

No wonder they couldn't get Anti-trust approval, that is pure collusion, and on high traffic domestic routes that law makers fly on.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineSnn2003 From United States of America, joined May 2001, 298 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4624 times:

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 11):
In the mid-to-late 90's, someone at Trans World decided an all Airbus fleet was to be the way to go, with the A320 family running domestic operations and the A330 doing trans-atlantic. This certainly never materialized but it would have been a strange sight to see all TW Airbuses at Lambert Field...

That would have been a very cool sight....what a shame



One way, IAH-RTB please! No return ticket required.
User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 17
Reply 16, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4565 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 5):
The DOT saw DC Air as merely a mask for continuted control by UA and called no dice on the deal

Check again...DC Air was to be 49% owned by American in addition to the Fokkers being leased to them.



Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineAdam T. From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 957 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4316 times:

Didn't Continental try and get in on DCA during the merger talks? I seem to remember that. Then again, i've been drinking so I could be dreaming it.....LOL. Seriously though, I seem to remember hearing Continental's name during the merger talks between US and UA.

Adam


User currently offlineTWPHIL From France, joined May 2005, 46 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 4190 times:

Im glad to see that so many of you have such a fresh memory about TRANS WORLD..DETA737 congrats for saving such parts of AVIATION HISTORY...
Rest in peace TWA millions of fans still think of you...

By the way does anyone know what happened to Mr Bill Compton he had such tremendous plans for TW then few months later that was the END of the book...

Thanks to all.


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