HAJFlyer From Switzerland, joined Sep 2005, 1466 posts, RR: 10 Posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 4048 times:
There does not seem to be a lot of activity in the market for 19-seater turboprops at the moment.
The following western aircraft have occupied this niche for quite some time:
- The DHC-6 "Twin Otter" first flew for Trans-Australian Airlines in 1966
- The Embraer EMB-110 "Bandeirante" was introduced in 1973
- The Fairchild Metro entered service in 1973
- The CASA C212 (max. accommodation actually 26) entered service in 1975
- The Dornier Do 228 came on the market in 1982
- The Cessna 208 Caravan/Grand Caravan entered service in 1984
- The Beech 1900 C entered service in 1984 and the 1900 D in 1991.
While demand for second hand non-pressurised 19-seaters able to operate from short airfields with poor infrastructure appears to be somewhat robust, it seems that there is very little demand for faster pressurized pax 19-seaters from commuter/feeder airlines.
Why is that the case ?
Do you think that a new 19-seater (to succeed those B1900 D in service today with carriers such as Great Lakes that serve thin routes that often cannot support a Saab 340 or an EMB 120) will be developed in the years to come and if so by whom ?
Allessandro From Netherlands, joined Apr 2004, 60 posts, RR: 2 Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 3956 times:
Althought not pressurized, I spoke to these guys at the Evora Air Show 2005. Appears to be a french company with plans to manufacture a multi purpose a/c that can carry upto 19 passengers, do firefighting and can transport 3 standard LD3 (?) containers. There is currently a mock-up of the cockpit at the airfield.
Bomber996 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 361 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 3953 times:
Are the 19 seaters even really that profitable? For the most part I'd say the routes flown by 1900's in the Northeast are just there for the subsidy money the government gives to the airlines to fly these routes. Is there any profit besides this?
HAJFlyer From Switzerland, joined Sep 2005, 1466 posts, RR: 10 Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 3920 times:
Quoting Allessandro (Reply 1): Althought not pressurized, I spoke to these guys at the Evora Air Show 2005.
Thanks for the link Allessandro, I have never heard of these guys before. The aircraft looks like cross between a Shorts and a Casa. I would imagine that this aircraft is primarily aimed at military users.
Quoting Bomber996 (Reply 2): Are the 19 seaters even really that profitable? For the most part I'd say the routes flown by 1900's in the Northeast are just there for the subsidy money the government gives to the airlines to fly these routes
Bomber996, you are most likely right in saying that quite a few of the routes operated by B1900 receive subsidies under the EAS (essential air service) program.
Tornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 3866 times:
Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 4): Bomber996, you are most likely right in saying that quite a few of the routes operated by B1900 receive subsidies under the EAS (essential air service) program.
All the Air Midwest B1900's flying for US-X are EAS or otherwise subsidized (SCASD) to my knowledge.
However, Commutair runs a pretty extensive non-EAS network for Continental Connection using B1900's. Routes like CLE-DTW/FWA/SBN/PIT/ERI, then random routes across the Northeast like ABE-BOS, ALB-MHT, etc.
HAJFlyer From Switzerland, joined Sep 2005, 1466 posts, RR: 10 Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 3752 times:
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 6): Do 19-seaters need flight attendants on board?
Part 91 of the FAR (The FAA general regulations governing flight operations) do not currently require emergency-trained personnel on board aircraft with 19 or fewer seats.
SkyexRamper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3679 times:
Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 8): Part 91 of the FAR (The FAA general regulations governing flight operations) do not currently require emergency-trained personnel on board aircraft with 19 or fewer seats.
Part 91 limits seating to 9 for scheduled ops. All real airlines operate under part 121.
Nkops From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2544 posts, RR: 6 Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3673 times:
I think when 19 seaters were thrown under Part 121 from Part 135, it made alot of them unprofitable. I believe the reason for the change was so the 19 passenger aircraft would have to meet the same maintenance requirements as other commercial aircraf
N1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 25852 posts, RR: 79 Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3538 times:
Quoting Bomber996 (Reply 2): Are the 19 seaters even really that profitable? For the most part I'd say the routes flown by 1900's in the Northeast are just there for the subsidy money the government gives to the airlines to fly these routes. Is there any profit besides this?
Subsidies help in a lot of markets, but others hold their own because people are willing to pay good money for the flights.
Quoting Nkops (Reply 11): I believe the reason for the change was so the 19 passenger aircraft would have to meet the same maintenance requirements as other commercial aircraf
Yeah, it is a good thing they were forced to, though it didn't stop Mesa from f'ing up and having a B1900 crash because of a bad elevator tab that was reported to MX by their check captain more than a week prior
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
A330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 47 Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3478 times:
Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 5): All the Air Midwest B1900's flying for US-X are EAS or otherwise subsidized (SCASD) to my knowledge.
MCI-LIT and RDU-CHS/ORF are the only three of Air Midwest's US Airways Express routes left that aren't receiving EAS subsidy. Two or three years ago, there were dozens of them.
Colgan still flies a bunch of them, though again not as many as they once did. BOS-ACK/ALB/HPN/ISP/SYR and LGA-ACK/ALB/HYA/MHT/MVY/PVD come to mind.
Quoting N1120A (Reply 12): Yeah, it is a good thing they were forced to, though it didn't stop Mesa from f'ing up and having a B1900 crash because of a bad elevator tab that was reported to MX by their check captain more than a week prior
Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 13): If that's CLT... didn't the aircraft get worked on like the day prior, but faulty maintenance?
Yes, the plane's elevator was fixed incorrectly, two or three days before the crash.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
Tornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3432 times:
Quoting A330323X (Reply 15): Colgan still flies a bunch of them, though again not as many as they once did. BOS-ACK/ALB/HPN/ISP/SYR and LGA-ACK/ALB/HYA/MHT/MVY/PVD come to mind.
Some of those are Saab routes now. I flew one MHT-LGA-PIT last year after getting a voluntary bump on MHT-PIT. Looking at flytecomm, the only little Colgan sons of Beeches I saw running LGA was LGA-LEB, and a triangle LGA-HYA-ACK, rest were Saabs.
Honestly, I feel like I'm in a sturdier plane when I'm in a Beech compared to the Saab, size be damned.
BR715-A1-30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3368 times:
Quoting A330323X (Reply 15): Yes, the plane's elevator was fixed incorrectly, two or three days before the crash.
Don't they do test flights on their work... If not, they should... I think Mechanics should be certified to fly commercial aircraft they work on for under 10,000 feet to make sure everything works correctly... JMHO
A330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 47 Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3351 times:
Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 16): Quoting A330323X (Reply 15):
Colgan still flies a bunch of them, though again not as many as they once did. BOS-ACK/ALB/HPN/ISP/SYR and LGA-ACK/ALB/HYA/MHT/MVY/PVD come to mind.
Some of those are Saab routes now. I flew one MHT-LGA-PIT last year after getting a voluntary bump on MHT-PIT. Looking at flytecomm, the only little Colgan sons of Beeches I saw running LGA was LGA-LEB, and a triangle LGA-HYA-ACK, rest were Saabs.
Many of those routes also get Saab (and/or Dash) frequencies, but they've all got Beech frequencies as well. Some are seasonal.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
Bomber996 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 361 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3230 times:
I do my towered work for my PPL at LEB because it's the closest towered airport to LCI (Laconia Mun., NH). I always love watching the Colgan Beeches come into LEB. Makes me glad that there is another airport in NH besides MHT and PSM that get regular scheduled service. In LEB's case its 3x daily to LGA. Puts a warm feeling in my heart, as queer as that may sound.
Capital146 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2003, 2125 posts, RR: 49 Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3096 times:
Quoting Lono (Reply 20): What about the JS31 or 32's...???? They held 19 PAX and they had lots of headroom... anyone still operate these..???
Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 21): You are right, I forgot about them. AFAIK no commuter airline serving on of the major legacy network carriers in the US operates them any more.
However, here in the UK, we have Eastern Airways, a successful regional carrier, which still operates 6 J32's together with 15 of it's large sister, the J41 (and also 4 Saab 2000's).
Tornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 5 days ago) and read 3070 times:
Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 21): You are right, I forgot about them. AFAIK no commuter airline serving on of the major legacy network carriers in the US operates them any more.
What about Regions Air or whomever that is, from the Kirksville, MO crash, dba as an American Connection carrier?
25 ANZ772: Why did Embraer cancel the CBA-123 Vector after test flying it?. My guess is financial, but couldn't they manufacture it now?.
26 HAJFlyer: Good Question. AFAIK they destroyed the only two prototypes the had been built. At an early stage of the program they had 150 options from 18 potetia
27 ThePinnacleKid: < Off the subject > I went to the RegionsAir website that was posted earlier... I noticed under employment they are recruiting F/A's for SF340s. Does
28 Pyrex: So you were there, also... I am currently finishing my degree in Aerospace Engineering and we have heard a lot about that aircraft here at my Univers
29 HAJFlyer: Hi Chris, Hope this helps: Smyrna (Nashville), Tennessee, October 13, 2005 - Viva International, Inc. (VIVI.OB) announced today that in conjunction w
30 Tornado82: More on the prior post: Regions Air bid for, and received the subsidies for, running MGW/CKB (West Virginia) EAS routes to CVG, without an interline/
31 Sideflare75: Now that would be interesting. "Hey you guys take that MD-80 over there for a spin to make sure you did your work correctly". You are kidding right??
32 ThePinnacleKid: Thanks for all the info.... Very odd EAS awards but hey... that would be how the industry works. Chris
33 Tornado82: Yeah, well, I'm just glad I moved out of Fayette County, PA (right up the road from MGW) before it all went down hill with this.
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