Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?  
User currently offlineHAJFlyer From Switzerland, joined Sep 2005, 1473 posts, RR: 9
Posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5807 times:

There does not seem to be a lot of activity in the market for 19-seater turboprops at the moment.

The following western aircraft have occupied this niche for quite some time:

- The DHC-6 "Twin Otter" first flew for Trans-Australian Airlines in 1966
- The Embraer EMB-110 "Bandeirante" was introduced in 1973
- The Fairchild Metro entered service in 1973
- The CASA C212 (max. accommodation actually 26) entered service in 1975
- The Dornier Do 228 came on the market in 1982
- The Cessna 208 Caravan/Grand Caravan entered service in 1984
- The Beech 1900 C entered service in 1984 and the 1900 D in 1991.

While demand for second hand non-pressurised 19-seaters able to operate from short airfields with poor infrastructure appears to be somewhat robust, it seems that there is very little demand for faster pressurized pax 19-seaters from commuter/feeder airlines.

Why is that the case ?

Do you think that a new 19-seater (to succeed those B1900 D in service today with carriers such as Great Lakes that serve thin routes that often cannot support a Saab 340 or an EMB 120) will be developed in the years to come and if so by whom ?

[Edited 2005-10-19 12:55:12]

[Edited 2005-10-19 13:01:26]

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAllessandro From Netherlands, joined Apr 2004, 60 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5715 times:

Althought not pressurized, I spoke to these guys at the Evora Air Show 2005. Appears to be a french company with plans to manufacture a multi purpose a/c that can carry upto 19 passengers, do firefighting and can transport 3 standard LD3 (?) containers. There is currently a mock-up of the cockpit at the airfield.

http://www.skylander-aircraft.net/


User currently offlineBomber996 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 391 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5712 times:

Are the 19 seaters even really that profitable? For the most part I'd say the routes flown by 1900's in the Northeast are just there for the subsidy money the government gives to the airlines to fly these routes. Is there any profit besides this?

Peace  box 



AVIATION - A Vacation In Any Town, I Own Nothing
User currently offlineVgnAtl747 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1513 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5699 times:

It's just so, so ugly though...


Work Hard. Fly Right. Continental Airlines
User currently offlineHAJFlyer From Switzerland, joined Sep 2005, 1473 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5679 times:

Quoting Allessandro (Reply 1):
Althought not pressurized, I spoke to these guys at the Evora Air Show 2005.

Thanks for the link Allessandro, I have never heard of these guys before. The aircraft looks like cross between a Shorts and a Casa. I would imagine that this aircraft is primarily aimed at military users.

Quoting Bomber996 (Reply 2):
Are the 19 seaters even really that profitable? For the most part I'd say the routes flown by 1900's in the Northeast are just there for the subsidy money the government gives to the airlines to fly these routes

Bomber996, you are most likely right in saying that quite a few of the routes operated by B1900 receive subsidies under the EAS (essential air service) program.

Explanation of EAS:

http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/rural/easwhat.pdf


User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5625 times:

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 4):
Bomber996, you are most likely right in saying that quite a few of the routes operated by B1900 receive subsidies under the EAS (essential air service) program.

All the Air Midwest B1900's flying for US-X are EAS or otherwise subsidized (SCASD) to my knowledge.

However, Commutair runs a pretty extensive non-EAS network for Continental Connection using B1900's. Routes like CLE-DTW/FWA/SBN/PIT/ERI, then random routes across the Northeast like ABE-BOS, ALB-MHT, etc.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8943 posts, RR: 40
Reply 6, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5542 times:

Do 19-seaters need flight attendants on board?

Cheers



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineSkyexRamper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5531 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 6):

No...FAA rules state 1 FA for every 20-50 pax. Thats why the 1900 series was such a huge success.

[Edited 2005-10-19 19:31:06]

User currently offlineHAJFlyer From Switzerland, joined Sep 2005, 1473 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5511 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 6):
Do 19-seaters need flight attendants on board?

Part 91 of the FAR (The FAA general regulations governing flight operations) do not currently require emergency-trained personnel on board aircraft with 19 or fewer seats.


User currently offlineSkyexRamper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 5438 times:

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 8):
Part 91 of the FAR (The FAA general regulations governing flight operations) do not currently require emergency-trained personnel on board aircraft with 19 or fewer seats.

Part 91 limits seating to 9 for scheduled ops. All real airlines operate under part 121.


User currently offlineHAJFlyer From Switzerland, joined Sep 2005, 1473 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 5429 times:

Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 9):
Part 91 limits seating to 9 for scheduled ops. All real airlines operate under part 121.

I stand corrected. Thanks.  embarrassed 


User currently offlineNkops From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2660 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 5432 times:

I think when 19 seaters were thrown under Part 121 from Part 135, it made alot of them unprofitable. I believe the reason for the change was so the 19 passenger aircraft would have to meet the same maintenance requirements as other commercial aircraf


I have no association with Spirit Airlines
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26376 posts, RR: 76
Reply 12, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5297 times:

Quoting Bomber996 (Reply 2):
Are the 19 seaters even really that profitable? For the most part I'd say the routes flown by 1900's in the Northeast are just there for the subsidy money the government gives to the airlines to fly these routes. Is there any profit besides this?

Subsidies help in a lot of markets, but others hold their own because people are willing to pay good money for the flights.

Quoting Nkops (Reply 11):
I believe the reason for the change was so the 19 passenger aircraft would have to meet the same maintenance requirements as other commercial aircraf

Yeah, it is a good thing they were forced to, though it didn't stop Mesa from f'ing up and having a B1900 crash because of a bad elevator tab that was reported to MX by their check captain more than a week prior



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5231 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
B1900 crash because of a bad elevator tab that was reported to MX by their check captain more than a week prior

If that's CLT... didn't the aircraft get worked on like the day prior, but faulty maintenance?


User currently offlineHAJFlyer From Switzerland, joined Sep 2005, 1473 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5214 times:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 13):
that's CLT... didn't the aircraft get worked on like the day prior, but faulty maintenance

Here is the old thread on that crash:

Charlotte Crash (by Lparky Jan 8 2003 in Civil Aviation)


User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 44
Reply 15, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5237 times:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 5):
All the Air Midwest B1900's flying for US-X are EAS or otherwise subsidized (SCASD) to my knowledge.

MCI-LIT and RDU-CHS/ORF are the only three of Air Midwest's US Airways Express routes left that aren't receiving EAS subsidy. Two or three years ago, there were dozens of them.

Colgan still flies a bunch of them, though again not as many as they once did. BOS-ACK/ALB/HPN/ISP/SYR and LGA-ACK/ALB/HYA/MHT/MVY/PVD come to mind.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
Yeah, it is a good thing they were forced to, though it didn't stop Mesa from f'ing up and having a B1900 crash because of a bad elevator tab that was reported to MX by their check captain more than a week prior



Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 13):
If that's CLT... didn't the aircraft get worked on like the day prior, but faulty maintenance?

Yes, the plane's elevator was fixed incorrectly, two or three days before the crash.



I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5191 times:

Quoting A330323X (Reply 15):
Colgan still flies a bunch of them, though again not as many as they once did. BOS-ACK/ALB/HPN/ISP/SYR and LGA-ACK/ALB/HYA/MHT/MVY/PVD come to mind.

Some of those are Saab routes now. I flew one MHT-LGA-PIT last year after getting a voluntary bump on MHT-PIT. Looking at flytecomm, the only little Colgan sons of Beeches I saw running LGA was LGA-LEB, and a triangle LGA-HYA-ACK, rest were Saabs.

Honestly, I feel like I'm in a sturdier plane when I'm in a Beech compared to the Saab, size be damned.


User currently offlineBR715-A1-30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5127 times:

Quoting A330323X (Reply 15):
Yes, the plane's elevator was fixed incorrectly, two or three days before the crash.

Don't they do test flights on their work... If not, they should... I think Mechanics should be certified to fly commercial aircraft they work on for under 10,000 feet to make sure everything works correctly... JMHO


User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 44
Reply 18, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 5110 times:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 16):
Quoting A330323X (Reply 15):
Colgan still flies a bunch of them, though again not as many as they once did. BOS-ACK/ALB/HPN/ISP/SYR and LGA-ACK/ALB/HYA/MHT/MVY/PVD come to mind.

Some of those are Saab routes now. I flew one MHT-LGA-PIT last year after getting a voluntary bump on MHT-PIT. Looking at flytecomm, the only little Colgan sons of Beeches I saw running LGA was LGA-LEB, and a triangle LGA-HYA-ACK, rest were Saabs.

Many of those routes also get Saab (and/or Dash) frequencies, but they've all got Beech frequencies as well. Some are seasonal.



I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
User currently offlineBomber996 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 391 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4989 times:

I do my towered work for my PPL at LEB because it's the closest towered airport to LCI (Laconia Mun., NH). I always love watching the Colgan Beeches come into LEB. Makes me glad that there is another airport in NH besides MHT and PSM that get regular scheduled service. In LEB's case its 3x daily to LGA. Puts a warm feeling in my heart, as queer as that may sound.  Silly

Peace  box 



AVIATION - A Vacation In Any Town, I Own Nothing
User currently offlineLono From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1335 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4883 times:

What about the JS31 or 32's...???? They held 19 PAX and they had lots of headroom... anyone still operate these..???


Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
User currently offlineHAJFlyer From Switzerland, joined Sep 2005, 1473 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4865 times:

Quoting Lono (Reply 20):
What about the JS31 or 32's...????

You are right, I forgot about them. AFAIK no commuter airline serving on of the major legacy network carriers in the US operates them any more.


User currently offlineCapital146 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2003, 2125 posts, RR: 44
Reply 22, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4855 times:

Quoting Lono (Reply 20):
What about the JS31 or 32's...???? They held 19 PAX and they had lots of headroom... anyone still operate these..???



Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 21):
You are right, I forgot about them. AFAIK no commuter airline serving on of the major legacy network carriers in the US operates them any more.

However, here in the UK, we have Eastern Airways, a successful regional carrier, which still operates 6 J32's together with 15 of it's large sister, the J41 (and also 4 Saab 2000's).


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Steven Grace




Like a fine wine, one gets better with age.
User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4829 times:

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 21):
You are right, I forgot about them. AFAIK no commuter airline serving on of the major legacy network carriers in the US operates them any more.

What about Regions Air or whomever that is, from the Kirksville, MO crash, dba as an American Connection carrier?


User currently offlineHAJFlyer From Switzerland, joined Sep 2005, 1473 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4821 times:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 23):
What about Regions Air or whomever that is, from the Kirksville, MO crash, dba as an American Connection carrier?

You are right, Regions Air still operate the J32.

I was just thinking about American Eagle, UA Express, CO Express etc. and forgot the Connection carriers.

http://www.regionsair.com/aircraft.html


25 ANZ772 : Why did Embraer cancel the CBA-123 Vector after test flying it?. My guess is financial, but couldn't they manufacture it now?.
26 Post contains links and images HAJFlyer : Good Question. AFAIK they destroyed the only two prototypes the had been built. At an early stage of the program they had 150 options from 18 potetia
27 ThePinnacleKid : < Off the subject > I went to the RegionsAir website that was posted earlier... I noticed under employment they are recruiting F/A's for SF340s. Does
28 Pyrex : So you were there, also... I am currently finishing my degree in Aerospace Engineering and we have heard a lot about that aircraft here at my Univers
29 HAJFlyer : Hi Chris, Hope this helps: Smyrna (Nashville), Tennessee, October 13, 2005 - Viva International, Inc. (VIVI.OB) announced today that in conjunction w
30 Tornado82 : More on the prior post: Regions Air bid for, and received the subsidies for, running MGW/CKB (West Virginia) EAS routes to CVG, without an interline/
31 Sideflare75 : Now that would be interesting. "Hey you guys take that MD-80 over there for a spin to make sure you did your work correctly". You are kidding right??
32 ThePinnacleKid : Thanks for all the info.... Very odd EAS awards but hey... that would be how the industry works. Chris
33 Tornado82 : Yeah, well, I'm just glad I moved out of Fayette County, PA (right up the road from MGW) before it all went down hill with this.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Any Plans For New Major Airports? posted Fri Aug 13 2004 19:07:05 by Anthsaun
Any Plans For New International Routes To Arn? posted Sun Feb 3 2002 20:33:43 by Jocke08
China Plans New 19-Seat Turboprop posted Fri Mar 17 2006 18:14:55 by Leelaw
Any Plans For The New US Airways Express? posted Sun Sep 4 2005 13:30:05 by AkjetBlue
Kalitta Air - Any Plans For 744F's In The Future? posted Sat Sep 30 2006 23:16:03 by Maiznblu_757
FNT Outlines Plans For New Cargo Terminal posted Thu Jul 27 2006 22:20:04 by KarlB737
Plans For New Airport In Irkutsk posted Thu Jul 13 2006 14:14:53 by EHHO
Any Chance For New Trans-Atlantic Service From BWI posted Sat Jan 14 2006 18:49:11 by HoosierCFI
Sun Country: Any Plans For 2006? posted Wed Jan 4 2006 01:47:08 by N808NWatMSP
Any Plans For QR To Sydney posted Thu Dec 15 2005 18:32:33 by Amirs