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Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?  
User currently offlineJAM747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 550 posts, RR: 1
Posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4446 times:

I have been reading quite a few trends here on a.net regarding possible stops between Japan Narita (NRT) and Brazil Sao Paulo (GRU). Some the flights between these cities usually make a stop in either the U.S, Mexico, or Canada. However recent in transit visa requirements by the U.S and possibly Mexico have affected the traffic on these routes. This also have affected the airlines which do these routes and some are seeking alternative routes with stops. . It seems that a large number of people travel between Japan and Brazil. Is it possible that Montego Bay Jamaica could be a feasible stop between NRT AND GRU even if it just a fuel stop? The distance between NRT and MBJ is about 6883nm and between MBJ and GRU it is about 3118nm. These routes seem to be in the range of the aircrafts of JAL , Varig or other airlines with B747, B777, MD11, A340 etc. I know alot of Japanese go to Jamaica and from Montego Bay there are a number flights to other Caribbean countries. I am not sure of the traffic of Brazilians to Jamaica or other Caribbean countries and I don't think they need a visa especially if the flight only stops for fuel. What do you guys think?

52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUSADreamliner From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4410 times:

I think is not possible.
what's next? Sao Paulo-Easter Island-Noumea-Osaka?
Rio de Janeiro-Acapulco-Beijing?



 Wink  Big grin  Wink  Big grin  Wink


User currently offlineJAM747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 550 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4388 times:

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 1):
I think is not possible.
what's next? Sao Paulo-Easter Island-Noumea-Osaka?
Rio de Janeiro-Acapulco-Beijing?

Why not? any particular reason?

Regards.


User currently offlineMGA From Nicaragua, joined Mar 2005, 726 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4375 times:

There might not be enough traffic from MBJ to NRT, maybe only the brazilians. Is there enough market for Japanese or Brazilians vacationing in Jamaica? This would definetely be a compensating factor.

MGA



Que viva el guaro, el dinero y los aviones!!!
User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4336 times:

Change MBJ for HAV and then we're talking.
I don't think Mexico is going to require trasit visas for Brazilians flying for example GRU-TIJ-NRT, GRU-MTY-NRT or GRU-CUN-NRT in the same aircraft.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineJAM747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 550 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4325 times:

Quoting MGA (Reply 3):
There might not be enough traffic from MBJ to NRT, maybe only the brazilians

There might be Japanese going from NRT to GRU who might use this route. Also I do know that alot of Japanese vacation and do business in Jamaica and Caribbean which normally change planes in Miami or somewhere else in the U.S to get there. Montego Bay is a good place to connect to other islands in the Caribbean if one cannot get a direct flights to other islands there. A direct route from NRT to GRU is about 9978nm. (NRT to MBJ is 6883nm)+ (MBJ to GRU is 3118nm)= 10001nm. This means if there is enough traffic to do this route ,at least MBJ would not be too much out of the way between NRT and GRU.  

[Edited 2005-10-19 22:29:38]

User currently offlineKtachiya From Japan, joined Sep 2004, 1794 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4302 times:

Quoting JAM747 (Reply 5):
There might be Japanese going from NRT to GRU who might use this route. Also I do know that alot of Japanese vacation and do business in Jamaica and Caribbean which normally change planes in Miami or somewhere else in the U.S to get there.

Did you happen to read my threat that I posted last week on a similar topic? well just in case you didn't many people posted that Japan was extremely hard in granting RG the right to fly from ZHR-NRT. So if u take that into consideration, the Brazilian government is just going to be as hard on that Japanese carriers to do this.



Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
User currently offlineJAM747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 550 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4285 times:

Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 6):
Did you happen to read my threat that I posted last week on a similar topic? well just in case you didn't many people posted that Japan was extremely hard in granting RG the right to fly from ZHR-NRT. So if u take that into consideration, the Brazilian government is just going to be as hard on that Japanese carriers to do this.

I don't think I saw that trend. Do you have the link or remember the topic? I will be sure to check it out if you do . Thanks


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 8, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4283 times:

Any place such as LIS or MAD would be better. NYC and YYZ are right on the path of a theoretical non-stop flight.

The problem is that MBJ and LIS/MAD don't have the same number of high-yielding pax RG is after (a la LAX and ZRH).

Plus I don't think a fuel stop-over would really matter as far as rights go, meaning they could stop where gas is cheaper (CCS?).

Would be an interesting flight to say the least, but just not realistic.

Cheers



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineJetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2987 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4272 times:

Quoting JAM747 (Reply 2):
Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 1):
I think is not possible.
what's next? Sao Paulo-Easter Island-Noumea-Osaka?
Rio de Janeiro-Acapulco-Beijing?

Why not? any particular reason?

Regards.

You've got to have a reasonable base for local traffic.

Unless Jamaica becomes a hot market for the Japanese, MBJ could never support such an operation.



Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4254 times:

Quoting JAM747 (Thread starter):
Some the flights between these cities usually make a stop in either the U.S, Mexico, or Canada

In my view: impossible.

As posted before, the alternative routes Japn-Brazil are now via Europe and Canada: almost same miles and travel time.

Rgs,


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 11, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4222 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 8):

Plus I don't think a fuel stop-over would really matter as far as rights go, meaning they could stop where gas is cheaper (CCS?).

Hmmm.... I really like that idea.

How much cheaper is Av-fuel in CCS versus say, NYC/ LAX or Europe?

Could it be competitive considering B777/A340/B747 competition through NYC/FRA/CDG?

Any market at CCS for Japan? There is always connections to the caribbean I guess. Maybe a codeshare with a Venezuelan carrier? Let's consider a B787 for the proposed route.

Brazil-Japan via CCS is only 16km longer than non-stop.

What about the CCS-NRT rights?

Cheers

[Edited 2005-10-19 23:28:02]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineJAM747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 550 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4174 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):
Brazil-Japan via CCS is only 16km longer than non-stop.

What about the CCS-NRT rights?

Good suggestion PPVRA. I thought about that too, I was hoping to hear your comments on this.


User currently offlineBSBIsland From Brazil, joined Jul 2005, 379 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4117 times:

I think the days of Varig flying to Japan are over, and if LAX doesn´t work anymore, it will be quite difficult for any other destination. It´s too simple and convenient in these days of codeshares and alliances not to have this too long routes if not really profitable.

But anyway, I love Jamaica, and would love to see this in my next life.
Rio de Janeiro-Kingston-Tokyo  Smile


User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2899 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4109 times:

Preferably the flight path would not take it over US airspace, because even then it may occasioanlly be forced to land if some passenger is not a "friend" of the US. Of course this is a minor issue compared to the transit visa problem, but may be taken into consideration.


I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlineBrasuca From Brazil, joined Mar 2004, 717 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4097 times:

Since you are talking about so many possible routes via low yielding cities, why not GRU-BEY-NRT?

Beirut-São Paulo has been discussed for a while, as MEA evaluated resuming flights to Brazil last year.

But, honestly, we're not going to see VARIG flights with their own metal to Japan for the next half decade.



Varig, Varig, Varig
User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2956 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4049 times:

How long is the runway at either KIN or MBJ? If it isn't 3,500m or over forget it.

While we are at it, I propose a NRT-TIP-GRU? It seems Libya is increasingly becoming a Japanese destination for business (oil) & pleasure.


User currently offlineJAM747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 550 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3958 times:

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 16):
How long is the runway at either KIN or MBJ? If it isn't 3,500m or over forget it.

Not sure of the exact length but I know the Concorde used to land at MBJ for a while and 747s from AC (when they had them), BA, and even Air Jamaica leased 747s have used there.


User currently offlinePPSMA From Brazil, joined Aug 2005, 157 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3916 times:

Quote:
JAM747

Is it possible that Montego Bay Jamaica could be a feasible stop between NRT AND GRU even if it just a fuel stop?

Not in this life!!

The only thing that the great majority of Brazilians know about Jamaica is that Peter Tosh was Jamaican and that weed is top quality ...  banghead 

If you look at the number of Brazilians who travel to Jamaica either on business or leisure you´ll understand what I´m saying!

Now, if this route was that important (GRU/NRT) as everybody has been stating, don´t you think that :

1) JAL would have increased their frequencies to daily?
2) The European Airlines would not be heavily promoting JAPAN in the market?
3) RG would not only fight for more frequencies but also go back flying into OSA?
4) ANA would not have put enough pressure on both governments to obtain traffic rights via Europe?

C´mon, people, wake up!

Cheers,

Domenico



Aviation is my thing!
User currently offlineJAM747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 550 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3904 times:

Quoting PPSMA (Reply 18):
Now, if this route was that important (GRU/NRT) as everybody has been stating, don´t you think that :

1) JAL would have increased their frequencies to daily?
2) The European Airlines would not be heavily promoting JAPAN in the market?
3) RG would not only fight for more frequencies but also go back flying into OSA?
4) ANA would not have put enough pressure on both governments to obtain traffic rights via Europe?

C´mon, people, wake up!

Cheers,

I was only curious since there have so many trends on this subject and was hoping to get ideas from people who might know more. PPSA I am glad to hear your opinion as I notice from your profile that you are a trave agent.
Thanks.


User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2956 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3882 times:

Quoting JAM747 (Reply 17):
Not sure of the exact length but I know the Concorde used to land at MBJ for a while and 747s from AC (when they had them), BA, and even Air Jamaica leased 747s have used there.

Thanks for the info. I already knew that beforehand, so the runway at both airports must be at least 2,500m. YYZ-KIN/MBJ on 747 with only that much runway is no problem. Much different with winter headwinds going to NRT on full payload on a A343/744/777.

Quoting PPSMA (Reply 18):
RG would not only fight for more frequencies but also go back flying into OSA?

Did RG ever serve Osaka loooong time ago? I was under the impression it never did and NGO & NRT (HND) were the only Japanese airports to ever see RG service.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Reply 21, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3873 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting PPSMA (Reply 18):
Now, if this route was that important (GRU/NRT) as everybody has been stating, don´t you think that :

1) JAL would have increased their frequencies to daily?
2) The European Airlines would not be heavily promoting JAPAN in the market?
3) RG would not only fight for more frequencies but also go back flying into OSA?
4) ANA would not have put enough pressure on both governments to obtain traffic rights via Europe?

Hi Domenico!
Nice words. And i agree. Seems that Brazil-Japan lost a lot of traffic when compared to 10 years ago. I work in a Bank with interests in Japan and we could obtain the same info, altough the community remains huge, they keep more time (and even stays in Japan). Brazil is a good market for Japanease looking for tourist, but it's far.
Nowadays you can travel from Brazil to Japan thru several airlines, and seems that each one keep a stake of this market.
Only if one day an airline offer a non stop (!) GRU-NRT i could see a huge movement, but without, remember that many pax are concerned with Frequent Flyer and Prices (it means diversification will be increased)

Regards,
Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineXA744 From Mexico, joined Mar 2004, 734 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3823 times:

... GIG/GRU-TIJ-NRT/NGO/KIX.... Very feasible... allow me to say !

No matter that AM is in Skyteam and RG with Star, a joint operation by both airlines from Brazil and Mexico to Japan and beyond, is an option and should be pursued.

A crazy idea ?... Well, just killing time !

Regards



No matter how you fly...just never get your wings clipped !
User currently offlineBSBIsland From Brazil, joined Jul 2005, 379 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3715 times:

Quoting PPSMA (Reply 18):
1) JAL would have increased their frequencies to daily?
2) The European Airlines would not be heavily promoting JAPAN in the market?
3) RG would not only fight for more frequencies but also go back flying into OSA?
4) ANA would not have put enough pressure on both governments to obtain traffic rights via Europe?

OSA, or KIX was never served by Varig, but NGO.

Well, if you consider that Brazil-Japan is a quite competitive market with JL,RG,AA,DL,CO,UA,AC,AF,LH,AZ,LX,BA and KL having flights with only one stop and quite convenient connections you would find out that the market is not restricted to JL or RG flights.

I don´t know if the European airlines promote Japan heavily, but I´m sure they consider those pax going to anywhere in Asia, Africa or wherever, but specially to Japan. In this forum I´ve seen a few times people saying about LX flights to GRU and the amount of pax going to Japan via ZRH.

About ANA flying to Brazil, that doesn´t mean the market is not important. London I believe is an important market, but why VS hasn´t started flying to Brazil yet? Or MEX and Mexicana? Things just don´t work like that.


User currently offlineJAM747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 550 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3688 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 21):
Only if one day an airline offer a non stop (!) GRU-NRT i could see a huge movement

That would need a ultra long range aircraft that can cover the almost 10,000nm journey and would take about 19 hours. It might not be too long before a aircraft is available that can to that range. The 777LR , a version of the 787 is close to doing that. If possible, a direct non-stop route from NRT to GRU would probably be very profitable .


25 Post contains links A342 : You are right, I thought about this, too. Here we go: KIN: 2713 meters MBJ:2662 meters Source: http://gc.kls2.com I agree, it´s impossible.
26 JAM747 : Impossible for what? A large plane landing? As mentioned before I think KIN has been extended in the last few years but I personally saw the the Conc
27 A342 : Getting a longhaul aircraft nonstop from there to NRT is impossible, not a large plane landing there.
28 PPVRA : Why TIJ and not MEX? MEX is hot & high, but it should be feasible given that the B772LR can do CCS-NRT non-stop. PLus, it's a non-stop flight from ME
29 Post contains images Airbazar : Tell that to SA. How much traffic do they pick up at Sal?
30 Post contains images JAM747 : Now I see what you mean. Probably a 777LR, A340-500 or a 787 if the route was worth it? The distance between is NRT-MBJ 6883nm not sure in km.
31 XA744 : Because.... 1.- TIJ being at sea level offers no operational limitations to current long haulers being operated by RG. 2.- TWOV handling would be lot
32 Jetdeltamsy : What???? The topic was GRU and NRT, not SAL.
33 LipeGIG : *Off-Topic and just to reply* As far as i know, VS is still doing analisys on Brazilian Market. GIG is on their wish list because of the huge improve
34 2travel2know : If JL want to serve the SAN/TIJ metro area, this could be a good option.
35 Post contains images PPSMA : Anytime, mate! I'm only glad we're free to throw in our personal points-of view, right? My mistake: it was 1 am when I posted this reply! Exactly my
36 Airbazar : With a fuel stop at MBJ, and you said "You've got to have a reasonable base for local traffic." My point is, you don't need local traffic for a fuel
37 Post contains links A342 : Winnipeg may be a good fuel stop. Only 10 km longer than a direct flight and the distance is almost divided halfway. http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PAT
38 2travel2know : Canada would surely require brazilians to have Canadian Visas even if they're flying on the same aircraft. For a Brazil-Japan flight a stop in Canada
39 Post contains images A342 : I know, you told me this about a similar issue some time ago. But if it´s only a fuel stop when nobody is leaving or boarding the aircraft and the p
40 Cslusarc : Can Brazillians apply by mail for a Canadaian Visa? [Unlike a US Visa that requires an in-person interview.] If so, then obtaining a Canadian Visa is
41 BSBIsland : Dear Friend, Bilateral agreements... that´s why ANA (or VS, or MX) can´t fly to Brazil, not because the route is not important,profitable or anythi
42 LipeGIG : Hi Cslusarc, In fact brazilians could not use an e-mail to apply for the visa. The maximum alowed by Canadian Embassy/Consulates is to hire an agent
43 Incitatus : You have a point, but the problem is not the size of the market. It is the number of options available. Traffic gets spread across multiple carriers
44 Hardiwv : Correct. Honestly, nowadays there is a multitude of options for Brazil-Japan travel. Traffic, in fact, is very intense. Brazil-Japan traffic was one
45 JAM747 : How long is the typical time of travel between Japan to GRU via these routes? Thanks.
46 Hardiwv : About 25h direct with RG (via LAX) and JL (via JFK). But if you fly changing planes you can make it in 24h via CDG (TAM-JAL agreement), 24h via MXP w
47 LipeGIG : Hardi, allow me a little comment. TAM is so close to Virgin as British. TAM use British lounge at MIA and Virgin at JFK, both paid. I do not see so c
48 Hardiwv : You are correct. And from a market point of view, TAM would have no advantage teaming up with VS because it would entail another player in the Brazil
49 LipeGIG : I'm not specialist at JFK (could any of our US friends solve this) but i believe TAM will operate in a different terminal from British. Interesting t
50 MAH4546 : AA does not currently have a lounge in Concourse A. AA passengers departing out of Concourse A use the British Airways' Terrace Lounge. American Airl
51 Xkorpyoh : my favourtie route would be GRU-PTY-NRT and codeshare with Copa for the latin connections.
52 Post contains links Brasuca : Remember that AA operates in different Terminal than TAM at GRU as well. In JFK, BA operates at T7, AA at T8 and TAM will operate in T4 (the same as
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