JAM747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 550 posts, RR: 1 Posted (7 years 7 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3218 times:
I have been reading quite a few trends here on a.net regarding possible stops between Japan Narita (NRT) and Brazil Sao Paulo (GRU). Some the flights between these cities usually make a stop in either the U.S, Mexico, or Canada. However recent in transit visa requirements by the U.S and possibly Mexico have affected the traffic on these routes. This also have affected the airlines which do these routes and some are seeking alternative routes with stops. . It seems that a large number of people travel between Japan and Brazil. Is it possible that Montego Bay Jamaica could be a feasible stop between NRT AND GRU even if it just a fuel stop? The distance between NRT and MBJ is about 6883nm and between MBJ and GRU it is about 3118nm. These routes seem to be in the range of the aircrafts of JAL , Varig or other airlines with B747, B777, MD11, A340 etc. I know alot of Japanese go to Jamaica and from Montego Bay there are a number flights to other Caribbean countries. I am not sure of the traffic of Brazilians to Jamaica or other Caribbean countries and I don't think they need a visa especially if the flight only stops for fuel. What do you guys think?
MGA From Nicaragua, joined Mar 2005, 726 posts, RR: 4 Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3147 times:
There might not be enough traffic from MBJ to NRT, maybe only the brazilians. Is there enough market for Japanese or Brazilians vacationing in Jamaica? This would definetely be a compensating factor.
2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4 Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3108 times:
Change MBJ for HAV and then we're talking.
I don't think Mexico is going to require trasit visas for Brazilians flying for example GRU-TIJ-NRT, GRU-MTY-NRT or GRU-CUN-NRT in the same aircraft.
JAM747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 550 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3097 times:
Quoting MGA (Reply 3): There might not be enough traffic from MBJ to NRT, maybe only the brazilians
There might be Japanese going from NRT to GRU who might use this route. Also I do know that alot of Japanese vacation and do business in Jamaica and Caribbean which normally change planes in Miami or somewhere else in the U.S to get there. Montego Bay is a good place to connect to other islands in the Caribbean if one cannot get a direct flights to other islands there. A direct route from NRT to GRU is about 9978nm. (NRT to MBJ is 6883nm)+ (MBJ to GRU is 3118nm)= 10001nm. This means if there is enough traffic to do this route ,at least MBJ would not be too much out of the way between NRT and GRU.
Ktachiya From Japan, joined Sep 2004, 1729 posts, RR: 2 Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3074 times:
Quoting JAM747 (Reply 5): There might be Japanese going from NRT to GRU who might use this route. Also I do know that alot of Japanese vacation and do business in Jamaica and Caribbean which normally change planes in Miami or somewhere else in the U.S to get there.
Did you happen to read my threat that I posted last week on a similar topic? well just in case you didn't many people posted that Japan was extremely hard in granting RG the right to fly from ZHR-NRT. So if u take that into consideration, the Brazilian government is just going to be as hard on that Japanese carriers to do this.
JAM747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 550 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3057 times:
Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 6): Did you happen to read my threat that I posted last week on a similar topic? well just in case you didn't many people posted that Japan was extremely hard in granting RG the right to fly from ZHR-NRT. So if u take that into consideration, the Brazilian government is just going to be as hard on that Japanese carriers to do this.
I don't think I saw that trend. Do you have the link or remember the topic? I will be sure to check it out if you do . Thanks
Jetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2984 posts, RR: 8 Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3044 times:
Quoting JAM747 (Reply 2): Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 1):
I think is not possible.
what's next? Sao Paulo-Easter Island-Noumea-Osaka?
Rio de Janeiro-Acapulco-Beijing?
Why not? any particular reason?
Regards.
You've got to have a reasonable base for local traffic.
Unless Jamaica becomes a hot market for the Japanese, MBJ could never support such an operation.
Worked for too many airlines to list. Banktupcy after bankruptcy after bankruptcy.
PPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8492 posts, RR: 43 Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2994 times:
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 8):
Plus I don't think a fuel stop-over would really matter as far as rights go, meaning they could stop where gas is cheaper (CCS?).
Hmmm.... I really like that idea.
How much cheaper is Av-fuel in CCS versus say, NYC/ LAX or Europe?
Could it be competitive considering B777/A340/B747 competition through NYC/FRA/CDG?
Any market at CCS for Japan? There is always connections to the caribbean I guess. Maybe a codeshare with a Venezuelan carrier? Let's consider a B787 for the proposed route.
Brazil-Japan via CCS is only 16km longer than non-stop.
What about the CCS-NRT rights?
Cheers
[Edited 2005-10-19 23:28:02]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
BSBIsland From Brazil, joined Jul 2005, 345 posts, RR: 2 Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2889 times:
I think the days of Varig flying to Japan are over, and if LAX doesn´t work anymore, it will be quite difficult for any other destination. It´s too simple and convenient in these days of codeshares and alliances not to have this too long routes if not really profitable.
But anyway, I love Jamaica, and would love to see this in my next life.
Rio de Janeiro-Kingston-Tokyo
BuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2777 posts, RR: 3 Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2881 times:
Preferably the flight path would not take it over US airspace, because even then it may occasioanlly be forced to land if some passenger is not a "friend" of the US. Of course this is a minor issue compared to the transit visa problem, but may be taken into consideration.
JAM747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 550 posts, RR: 1 Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 2 days ago) and read 2730 times:
Quoting Carpethead (Reply 16): How long is the runway at either KIN or MBJ? If it isn't 3,500m or over forget it.
Not sure of the exact length but I know the Concorde used to land at MBJ for a while and 747s from AC (when they had them), BA, and even Air Jamaica leased 747s have used there.
PPSMA From Brazil, joined Aug 2005, 157 posts, RR: 6 Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2688 times:
Quote: JAM747
Is it possible that Montego Bay Jamaica could be a feasible stop between NRT AND GRU even if it just a fuel stop?
Not in this life!!
The only thing that the great majority of Brazilians know about Jamaica is that Peter Tosh was Jamaican and that weed is top quality ...
If you look at the number of Brazilians who travel to Jamaica either on business or leisure you´ll understand what I´m saying!
Now, if this route was that important (GRU/NRT) as everybody has been stating, don´t you think that :
1) JAL would have increased their frequencies to daily?
2) The European Airlines would not be heavily promoting JAPAN in the market?
3) RG would not only fight for more frequencies but also go back flying into OSA?
4) ANA would not have put enough pressure on both governments to obtain traffic rights via Europe?
JAM747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 550 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2676 times:
Quoting PPSMA (Reply 18): Now, if this route was that important (GRU/NRT) as everybody has been stating, don´t you think that :
1) JAL would have increased their frequencies to daily?
2) The European Airlines would not be heavily promoting JAPAN in the market?
3) RG would not only fight for more frequencies but also go back flying into OSA?
4) ANA would not have put enough pressure on both governments to obtain traffic rights via Europe?
C´mon, people, wake up!
Cheers,
I was only curious since there have so many trends on this subject and was hoping to get ideas from people who might know more. PPSA I am glad to hear your opinion as I notice from your profile that you are a trave agent.
Thanks.
Carpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2769 posts, RR: 4 Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2654 times:
Quoting JAM747 (Reply 17): Not sure of the exact length but I know the Concorde used to land at MBJ for a while and 747s from AC (when they had them), BA, and even Air Jamaica leased 747s have used there.
Thanks for the info. I already knew that beforehand, so the runway at both airports must be at least 2,500m. YYZ-KIN/MBJ on 747 with only that much runway is no problem. Much different with winter headwinds going to NRT on full payload on a A343/744/777.
Quoting PPSMA (Reply 18): RG would not only fight for more frequencies but also go back flying into OSA?
Did RG ever serve Osaka loooong time ago? I was under the impression it never did and NGO & NRT (HND) were the only Japanese airports to ever see RG service.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11200 posts, RR: 61 Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2645 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting PPSMA (Reply 18): Now, if this route was that important (GRU/NRT) as everybody has been stating, don´t you think that :
1) JAL would have increased their frequencies to daily?
2) The European Airlines would not be heavily promoting JAPAN in the market?
3) RG would not only fight for more frequencies but also go back flying into OSA?
4) ANA would not have put enough pressure on both governments to obtain traffic rights via Europe?
Hi Domenico!
Nice words. And i agree. Seems that Brazil-Japan lost a lot of traffic when compared to 10 years ago. I work in a Bank with interests in Japan and we could obtain the same info, altough the community remains huge, they keep more time (and even stays in Japan). Brazil is a good market for Japanease looking for tourist, but it's far.
Nowadays you can travel from Brazil to Japan thru several airlines, and seems that each one keep a stake of this market.
Only if one day an airline offer a non stop (!) GRU-NRT i could see a huge movement, but without, remember that many pax are concerned with Frequent Flyer and Prices (it means diversification will be increased)
Regards,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
XA744 From Mexico, joined Mar 2004, 734 posts, RR: 3 Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2595 times:
... GIG/GRU-TIJ-NRT/NGO/KIX.... Very feasible... allow me to say !
No matter that AM is in Skyteam and RG with Star, a joint operation by both airlines from Brazil and Mexico to Japan and beyond, is an option and should be pursued.
A crazy idea ?... Well, just killing time !
Regards
No matter how you fly...just never get your wings clipped !
BSBIsland From Brazil, joined Jul 2005, 345 posts, RR: 2 Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2487 times:
Quoting PPSMA (Reply 18): 1) JAL would have increased their frequencies to daily?
2) The European Airlines would not be heavily promoting JAPAN in the market?
3) RG would not only fight for more frequencies but also go back flying into OSA?
4) ANA would not have put enough pressure on both governments to obtain traffic rights via Europe?
OSA, or KIX was never served by Varig, but NGO.
Well, if you consider that Brazil-Japan is a quite competitive market with JL,RG,AA,DL,CO,UA,AC,AF,LH,AZ,LX,BA and KL having flights with only one stop and quite convenient connections you would find out that the market is not restricted to JL or RG flights.
I don´t know if the European airlines promote Japan heavily, but I´m sure they consider those pax going to anywhere in Asia, Africa or wherever, but specially to Japan. In this forum I´ve seen a few times people saying about LX flights to GRU and the amount of pax going to Japan via ZRH.
About ANA flying to Brazil, that doesn´t mean the market is not important. London I believe is an important market, but why VS hasn´t started flying to Brazil yet? Or MEX and Mexicana? Things just don´t work like that.
JAM747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 550 posts, RR: 1 Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2460 times:
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 21): Only if one day an airline offer a non stop (!) GRU-NRT i could see a huge movement
That would need a ultra long range aircraft that can cover the almost 10,000nm journey and would take about 19 hours. It might not be too long before a aircraft is available that can to that range. The 777LR , a version of the 787 is close to doing that. If possible, a direct non-stop route from NRT to GRU would probably be very profitable .
25 A342: You are right, I thought about this, too. Here we go: KIN: 2713 meters MBJ:2662 meters Source: http://gc.kls2.com I agree, it´s impossible.
26 JAM747: Impossible for what? A large plane landing? As mentioned before I think KIN has been extended in the last few years but I personally saw the the Conc
27 A342: Getting a longhaul aircraft nonstop from there to NRT is impossible, not a large plane landing there.
28 PPVRA: Why TIJ and not MEX? MEX is hot & high, but it should be feasible given that the B772LR can do CCS-NRT non-stop. PLus, it's a non-stop flight from ME
29 Airbazar: Tell that to SA. How much traffic do they pick up at Sal?
30 JAM747: Now I see what you mean. Probably a 777LR, A340-500 or a 787 if the route was worth it? The distance between is NRT-MBJ 6883nm not sure in km.
31 XA744: Because.... 1.- TIJ being at sea level offers no operational limitations to current long haulers being operated by RG. 2.- TWOV handling would be lot
32 Jetdeltamsy: What???? The topic was GRU and NRT, not SAL.
33 LipeGIG: *Off-Topic and just to reply* As far as i know, VS is still doing analisys on Brazilian Market. GIG is on their wish list because of the huge improve
34 2travel2know: If JL want to serve the SAN/TIJ metro area, this could be a good option.
35 PPSMA: Anytime, mate! I'm only glad we're free to throw in our personal points-of view, right? My mistake: it was 1 am when I posted this reply! Exactly my
36 Airbazar: With a fuel stop at MBJ, and you said "You've got to have a reasonable base for local traffic." My point is, you don't need local traffic for a fuel
37 A342: Winnipeg may be a good fuel stop. Only 10 km longer than a direct flight and the distance is almost divided halfway. http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PAT
38 2travel2know: Canada would surely require brazilians to have Canadian Visas even if they're flying on the same aircraft. For a Brazil-Japan flight a stop in Canada
39 A342: I know, you told me this about a similar issue some time ago. But if it´s only a fuel stop when nobody is leaving or boarding the aircraft and the p
40 Cslusarc: Can Brazillians apply by mail for a Canadaian Visa? [Unlike a US Visa that requires an in-person interview.] If so, then obtaining a Canadian Visa is
41 BSBIsland: Dear Friend, Bilateral agreements... that´s why ANA (or VS, or MX) can´t fly to Brazil, not because the route is not important,profitable or anythi
42 LipeGIG: Hi Cslusarc, In fact brazilians could not use an e-mail to apply for the visa. The maximum alowed by Canadian Embassy/Consulates is to hire an agent
43 Incitatus: You have a point, but the problem is not the size of the market. It is the number of options available. Traffic gets spread across multiple carriers
44 Hardiwv: Correct. Honestly, nowadays there is a multitude of options for Brazil-Japan travel. Traffic, in fact, is very intense. Brazil-Japan traffic was one
45 JAM747: How long is the typical time of travel between Japan to GRU via these routes? Thanks.
46 Hardiwv: About 25h direct with RG (via LAX) and JL (via JFK). But if you fly changing planes you can make it in 24h via CDG (TAM-JAL agreement), 24h via MXP w
47 LipeGIG: Hardi, allow me a little comment. TAM is so close to Virgin as British. TAM use British lounge at MIA and Virgin at JFK, both paid. I do not see so c
48 Hardiwv: You are correct. And from a market point of view, TAM would have no advantage teaming up with VS because it would entail another player in the Brazil
49 LipeGIG: I'm not specialist at JFK (could any of our US friends solve this) but i believe TAM will operate in a different terminal from British. Interesting t
50 MAH4546: AA does not currently have a lounge in Concourse A. AA passengers departing out of Concourse A use the British Airways' Terrace Lounge. American Airl
51 Xkorpyoh: my favourtie route would be GRU-PTY-NRT and codeshare with Copa for the latin connections.
52 Brasuca: Remember that AA operates in different Terminal than TAM at GRU as well. In JFK, BA operates at T7, AA at T8 and TAM will operate in T4 (the same as
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