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Long Haul Crews  
User currently offlineFlydc10 From Mexico, joined Aug 2004, 82 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 3630 times:

Hey

Here in Mexico BA flies only 4x a week, if the flight gets here on Monday and gets flies again on Wednesday, does the crew that flew the plane on Monday, stay in a hotel in mex until Wednesday, isn't this a waste of resources (crew).

Regards

flydc10


vivan nuestras aerolineas nacionales
34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17034 posts, RR: 67
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 3613 times:

Quoting Flydc10 (Thread starter):
Here in Mexico BA flies only 4x a week, if the flight gets here on Monday and gets flies again on Wednesday, does the crew that flew the plane on Monday, stay in a hotel in mex until Wednesday, isn't this a waste of resources (crew).

Not according to BA  Wink

Seriously long haul involves long duty times with maybe a rest in a bunk while on board. Then there's a time difference on top of that. Having the crew fly back after only 8 hours in a hotel room works on some routes (JFK-LHR) but not on the longer ones. I'd rather have a rested crew.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 3587 times:

It is not unusual for crews to rest 48 hours before returning on flights of 12 hours or more.

User currently onlineMr AirNZ From New Zealand, joined Feb 2002, 859 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 3557 times:

I know of one route and one airline where he crew get a 5 day layover in Hawaii! Hows that for work.

User currently offlineCarduelis From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2001, 1586 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3509 times:

I flew for a number of years in the early 60s as BOAC Cabin Crew.

All my trips were 21 days long, on 707/436s going around the world, with seven to ten days at home before doing it all over again!

Yes, we did have five days off in HNL because the three flights a week were scheduled Fri/Sat/Sun, so if we arrived in HNL on Sun, we had to wait for the next aircraft coming around on Friday. Similarly, for the same reason, we did the same thing in TYO or SFO, if we arrived on Sunday at those places.

Efficient? Of course it was . . . !



Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
User currently offlinePIA777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1738 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3446 times:

For instance, PIA Flys to ORD on Wed and Sat. The Crew arriving on Wed
leaves on Sat and the Sat crew leaves on Wednesday. What I find weird
is that the Cockpit crew stays at a 5 start Hotel in Downtown and the cabin
crew stays near ORD.

PIA777



GO CUBS!!
User currently offlineWunala From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 950 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3396 times:

Quoting PIA777 (Reply 5):
What I find weird
is that the Cockpit crew stays at a 5 start Hotel in Downtown and the cabin
crew stays near ORD.

I know a few airlines that do that, either to keep the distinction between the two or the pilots have better bargaining skills!!!

I think it is wrong, unless there is some over whealming reason to do so. All staff should be treated equally.


User currently offlineIADLHR From Italy, joined Apr 2005, 735 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3379 times:

I know that the BA crew that flies LHR-ORD and laysover for a day or so and does ORD-IAH-ORD and laysover again before flying ORD-LHR stays at a different hotel, a few blocks away, from the hotel in Chicago where the other BA crews stay.

I never could figure that one out, especially since I would regard the hotel where the other BA crews stay as being better. Strange.


User currently offlineEdhugo From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 19 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3324 times:

Quoting PIA777 (Reply 5):



Quoting IADLHR (Reply 7):

I'm sure it all comes down to the Union's, their contracts and negotiation skills. And I'm also sure that, if it were for the Airline, they'd all stay at the closest Motel6.


User currently offlineTrolley Dolley From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3263 times:

The MEX route uses quite a few MEX based crew as I found out when I flew it as a pax. They gave great service.

A 48 hour break after a 13 hour day involving a big time change, before an overnight flight back is not an inefficient use of resources.


User currently offlineAlanUK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3154 times:

Quoting Flydc10 (Thread starter):
isn't this a waste of resources (crew).

Oh sure it is! Let's make the crew sleep on the aircraft for a couple of hours after a duty day of 13 hours, then make them fly straight back to London on another 11 hour flight... If there's an emergency on landing in London and they're just too tired to know what an aircraft door looks like after working a mere 26 hours with a little sleep on the aircraft, never mind, it's just efficient this way...  crazy 

Honestly? How many hours do you work in your office job? 8? Add the numbers up, then add jet lag, mandatory rest etc etc. I can assure you that a crew staying in MEX for 48 hours isn't a waste of resources, leaving the plane there for 48H would be a waste. Crew are cheap on the whole picture of the airline. And just to make you more mad, there is also a 72h layover in Mexico for BA Crew!  smile 

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 7):
I know that the BA crew that flies LHR-ORD and laysover for a day or so and does ORD-IAH-ORD and laysover again before flying ORD-LHR stays at a different hotel, a few blocks away, from the hotel in Chicago where the other BA crews stay.

I never could figure that one out, especially since I would regard the hotel where the other BA crews stay as being better. Strange.

This is purely because the "main" hotel by the J. Hancock Tower cannot accomodote the volume of crew if you include the Houston shuttle.

Safe flying all.


User currently offlineLordHowe From Finland, joined Jan 2003, 728 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3128 times:

This is actually quite an interesting topic!

The question of crew layover time is always a question of costs and can have huge effect on decisions about new routes.

Could you crew members here in a.net tell us a little more of layover times in different airlines? Isnt't it quite common with 24 hours turnover?

I remember once flying from CDG to MRU (12 hour flight overnight) with European Aircharter classic jumbo, because MKs own 340-300 planned for this flight had some technical problems.

The flight had Europeans own crew and when I asked them upon arrival to MRU in the morning when they would be flying back to Europe, they told me that they would return on the same evening. This meant that they didn't have more than about 10-12 hours time before being back on duty and flying again a 12 hours overnight flight. This does not seem very safe - is it even legal?

It would be nice to hear how the other airlines have it.

Best regards,
LordHowe



Lord Howe Island - The Last Paradise
User currently offlineAirGabon From Switzerland, joined Dec 2003, 881 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3028 times:

It's legal and normal. AF crew members when they fly to Luanda or Djibouti (just 1 flight per week), they arrive very early in the morning, spend 10-12 hours in a hotel during the day, and fly back to CDG the same evening.

In comparison with very long-haul daily flights like SFO, NRT, EZE, GRU, SIN or MEX they have 2 days rest (or even 3 sometimes).


User currently offlineLordHowe From Finland, joined Jan 2003, 728 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2978 times:

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 12):
AF crew members when they fly to Luanda or Djibouti (just 1 flight per week), they arrive very early in the morning, spend 10-12 hours in a hotel during the day, and fly back to CDG the same evening.

I do not think it is nearly the same as CDG-MRU, because CDG-Luanda is 8 hour flight and CDG-Djibouti just over 7 hour flight.

CDG-MRU is 12 hours ...

Best regards,
LordHowe



Lord Howe Island - The Last Paradise
User currently offlineNetworkDoc From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 77 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2954 times:

Apart from basic legal requirements, the rest is probably pretty much down to bargaining power of crew at their respective airlines. Thus, I would expect much variation as a result of that and am not surprised that different practices prevail.


Flown: AB/BA/BD/BI/CX/DI/DL/KE/KL/LH/LT/LX/MH/NW/OZ/PR/QF/SN/SQ/TW/UA/VS/5J.
User currently offlineAussiestu From Australia, joined Mar 2001, 780 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2708 times:

A lot of rest in cities is due to the frequencies of flights. If its daily then the rest is shorter but if flights are not daily then the slip pattern will be different due to when the aircraft arrives and departs. Some trips are shorter and others are longer but some trips require a rest of 2 nights before returning to base and others are pushed to the minimum and only require a night.

Any airline running a business wants the minimum rest for crew and then get them working again but this does lead to several problems......crew fatigue, limited hours on duty and one that is often not catered to is lack of response to passenger service due to crew tiredness. It may be all well and good to companies balance sheets that crew only night stop somewhere but what is the overall customer satisfaction on the return flight due to crew tiredness??????


User currently offlineConair From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 196 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2514 times:

So What would be the position for say BA&Vs Flightcrews on LHR-LAX or SFO which are definitely longhaul(Over 11 hours) but are daily or in the case of LAX have up to 3 flights a day? I would have thought you would need over one day of rest but with say two or three flights a day you would need a lot of crew accommodation.

Regards
Conair


User currently offlineLordHowe From Finland, joined Jan 2003, 728 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2529 times:

Quoting Conair (Reply 16):
What would be the position for say BA&Vs Flightcrews on LHR-LAX or SFO

My guess is that the crew will have around 24 hours in LAX or SFO and then back home ...

Finnair has daily flight to BKK. Three times a week the aircraft will proceed to HKG and four times a week to SIN. The crew will, after 10 hour flight HEL-BKK stay in BKK until the next days flight, the they will work for the BKK-HKG/SIN-BKK flights, stay again 24 hours in BKK and then back to HEL.

Regards,
LordHowe



Lord Howe Island - The Last Paradise
User currently offlineEoinnz From New Zealand, joined Jul 2003, 226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2263 times:

I was speaking to someone at emirates a while ago so it may of changed but crew on the SYD-AKL and BNE-AKL overnight before returning to SYD/BNE however the crew on the MEL-AKL had to do the return journey as well - And it's the longest out of the 3 flights as well at about 4 hours each way as comapred to Sydney where the flight is often under 3 hours and Brisbane at about 3 1/2 hours

User currently offlineWrighbrothers From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 1875 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2222 times:

Quoting Conair (Reply 16):
So What would be the position for say BA&Vs Flightcrews on LHR-LAX or SFO which are definitely longhaul(Over 11 hours)

I was talking to the cabin crew when I did LHR-LAX on BA back in August, and I thought the First class purser said the the layover in LAX/SFO is 2 days. Although it can be 3. Compare that to SEA and the BA crews on have 1 night.

Wrighbrothers



Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
User currently offlineNudelhirsch From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1438 posts, RR: 19
Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2203 times:

So, let's take it further...

Take BA in ORD... on a typical afternoon/early evening the ride from ORD to downtown Chicago, especially Hancock (and the nearby hotels) can take up to 2hrs if you have bad luck. I don't think the crew is taking the CTA, so:
-how is transportation handled
-how are these hours counted? Worktime but off duty? Spare time? Bad luck for crew time?
-does that make sense? There are enough decent hotels in the northwestern burbs of Chicago, why carry the crowd downtown?
-how is the time regarded when shuttling outbound to ORD? It is not really restful to take that ride in the afternoon, no matter what car you are in...
-does any airline actually have their crew use public transportation for purposes like this? Or do they operate their own shuttles? Downtown hotels do often not have shuttles to ORD, so is this outsourced transportation or how does that work?



Putana da Seatbeltz!
User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6849 posts, RR: 75
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2209 times:

Here's an example of an "over efficient use of human resources"...
I know someone who was called up out of standby, to the airport at MXP, wait for her 777 to come... the sister company's A332 had gone tech... so they had to provide the flight... So...

Plane arrives in MXP, not enough time to clean up, flies back to FCO with the crew becoming janitors... land... and... Where's the A330? It's still 2hrs out... (great news! they just became cleaners because the sister company's dispatch demanded the 777 leave immediately for FCO...)...

A330 arrived... Pax transferred... where's the catering? It came in the form of the meal carts and galley contents from the A330 flight... Where's the water? Hello Dispatch? "Water? You don't need water, you need to fly to MRU NOW! Give the pax softdrinks!" *yikes*

So, 11hrs to MRU... with the A330 crew of the sister company deadheading (yes, dead heading and they were gonna have a 1 week layover)... landed... Capt. informed that it'll be "minimum rest"... 8hrs... Went to the hotel, and 6hrs later, they were woken up... 8 hrs minimum rest is supposed to be 8hrs continuous rest AFTER ARRIVAL at the hotel... Guess what the sister company said... "Nope! U landed 8hrs ago, U gotta depart in 1 hr!" "How about work and safety rules?" "Sort that out when you get back to base" (which then everyone in the sister company denied it ever happened)...

So, the A330 crew had a 1 week layover in Mauritius with a deadhead on the replacement flight... and the replacement flight crew had below minimum rest...

The whole crew was sick within 24hrs of arrival with fatigue...

7 day Maldives layover is nice... for about 2 or 3 visits... after that U dread it! LOL

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineAlanUK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2148 times:

Quoting LordHowe (Reply 17):
My guess is that the crew will have around 24 hours in LAX or SFO and then back home ...

Wrong, both BA and VS crew stay a minimum of 48 hours in LAX and SFO.

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 20):
-how is transportation handled

By a private coaching firm taking crew straight from outside the terminal to the door of the hotel

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 20):
-how are these hours counted? Worktime but off duty? Spare time? Bad luck for crew time?

BA allows between 30 and 60 minutes debriefing time when away from base, this time starts from engines off. After that, if the journey to the hotel takes 2 hours, it is time that crew are unpaid for, and counts towards crew rest. In another words, bad luck!

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 20):
-does that make sense? There are enough decent hotels in the northwestern burbs of Chicago, why carry the crowd downtown?

Heck why not put us in the airline's lounges within the terminal whilst you're at it?! We stay in city centres because we fought long and hard to keep it that way. Because we sometimes want to see the sights and enjoy an evening in a downtown bar or restaurant rather than having to get a cab, or god forbid public transport to do anything with our spare time downroute.

For your information, in 2004 alone, over 30 crew attempted suicide whilst away from home at BA alone, so the last thing BA wants is to put crew in a remote hotel where all there is to do is stare at 4 white walls.

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 20):
-how is the time regarded when shuttling outbound to ORD? It is not really restful to take that ride in the afternoon, no matter what car you are in...

Same as the time it takes to get from the report centre to the aircraft at base (LHR, LGW, MAN...). It is part of the briefing time (usually about 60 to 90 minutes allowance) - paid and counts towards total duty hours.

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 20):
-does any airline actually have their crew use public transportation for purposes like this? Or do they operate their own shuttles? Downtown hotels do often not have shuttles to ORD, so is this outsourced transportation or how does that work?

Like for hotels, BA has huge contracts for ground transport Worldwide. Third party coach companies run the service, usually for more than just one airline and to more than just one hotel.

Safe flying.


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9041 posts, RR: 75
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2134 times:

Long haul is not as attractive as it seems, you are constantly tired, your body clock does not know what "home" is, it leads to early aging. Always away from those who matter when its important.

The rest you get is the bare minimum the airline can roster you for, the romantic days of layovers for days on end are way over.

Long haul is not flying, its a job.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineWrighbrothers From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 1875 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2123 times:

Quoting AlanUK (Reply 22):
Wrong, both BA and VS crew stay a minimum of 48 hours in LAX and SFO.

Hi AlanUK , You weren't doing LHR-LAX in August in First class were you by any chance ?

Wrighbrothers



Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
25 Post contains images DrP : Minimum rest laws can become complicated! Basically, the minimum rest at base is 11 hours for FA's and 12 hours for pilot's. This can be reduced by on
26 AlanUK : Nope. I'm not First trained, and only work Club World and World Traveller/+.
27 Wrighbrothers : Ok, I flew to LAX on staff travel and there was no food, so I spent about .....4/5 hours talking to the cabin crew ! I was just curious Wrighbrothers
28 Corsairf/a : At Corsair we got one week lay-over in MBA and MLE, as both are a weekly flight. It is cheaper for tCorsair that we stay there than paying 19 one-ways
29 Post contains images SongStar : On typical transatlantic routes Delta crews spend on average 24 hours in a city. When the seasonal schedule pull down occurs ( sept/oct/nov ) there ar
30 HALFA : Presently at HA, our longest crew layovers are in SYD. We have 50 hours there. Our flights from HNL to PPT, PPG, and ANC are redeye turnarounds, meani
31 Post contains images Sano1980 : Well, as someone already said before, most of our rotations are pretty hard work, with the romantic layovers gone forever I mean, it IS a pretty norma
32 QANTAS077 : i think you will find the same crews do the return now also...i've heard but i am not sure and i doubt it, but some EK crews do the return sector fro
33 ZKSUJ : I know that SQ pilots and cabin crew stay at different hotels in AKL.
34 PhilSquares : At SQ, for the most part the cockpit and cabin crews have different layover hotels.
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