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NW To Annul All Union Contracts  
User currently offlineEjmmsu From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1692 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 1 month 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4993 times:

http://www.themilitant.com/2005/6942/694205.html


"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
72 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 month 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4969 times:

Is it just me or does any source entitled the "militant" seem hardly objectionable? Anywyas, while the aritcle may be recent the news on the other hand is not - NW has already busted their mechanics union and while they are all but likely to gain their desired concessions from the FA's as well, I don't think any airline would/could break the ALPA.

User currently offlineBR715-A1-30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4654 times:

I hope NWA goes under and it hurts them just like they have hurt the employees. I hope Steenland feels the pain. He has pissed off so many people. NWA DOES NOT HAVE A PLACE IN THE SKIES ANYMORE... AWAY WITH THEM!!!

User currently offlineAhdharia From United States of America, joined May 2004, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4597 times:
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Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 2):
I hope NWA goes under and it hurts them just like they have hurt the employees. I hope Steenland feels the pain. He has pissed off so many people. NWA DOES NOT HAVE A PLACE IN THE SKIES ANYMORE... AWAY WITH THEM!!!

I would LOVE to hear your anger towards NWA and their treating of employees? Please do share your thoughts on how they have "hurt" their employees?


User currently offlineJetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2987 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4585 times:

Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 2):
I hope NWA goes under and it hurts them just like they have hurt the employees.

Yea, but you shutdown the company and 35,000 employees will suffer. Steenland and other execs will walk away with millions of dollars, enough to live comfortably the rest of their lives whether they work again or not.

I was part of the union movement at Eastern Air Lines that ultimately shutdown the company. Sure we got Lorenzo out of our lives, but we also got rid of a pretty nice paycheck.

I hope the bankruptcy judge puts the brakes on the requests of NWA management to quickly void their contracts. NWA is NOT on the verge of shutting down because of lack of cash.

It is fact (and the law) that the executive's first obligation is to maintain the value of owner (stockholder) investment (equity). Steenland has a perfectly legal argument that continued losses are due in part to high labor costs. But because they are not anywhere close to running out of operating cash, I think NWA should still be obligated to negotiating changes to their labor agreements. They could ground the gas-guzzling DC9's, sell their real-estate in Japan (worth billions), return expensive leased equipment and other steps to restore profitability.



Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
User currently offlineGoaliemn From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 463 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4551 times:

I'm sure all the other employees will love "feeling the pain" with Steeland..

Everyone focuses their anger on one person, and wants thousands to lose their jobs in the process..

[Edited 2005-10-25 18:28:32]

User currently offlineAhdharia From United States of America, joined May 2004, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4525 times:
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Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 4):
I think NWA should still be obligated to negotiating changes to their labor agreements.

Negotiating works both ways. As well as understanding of the situation. Frankly speaking, AMFA deserves everything it gets now, they had the chance earlier but chose not to accept.

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 4):
They could ground the gas-guzzling DC9's

Granted they are Gas Guzzlers, but they also account for quite a bit of NWA's short haul/low capacity routes. However they do have plans and are in the works to retires the DC-9's right now.

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 4):
sell their real-estate in Japan (worth billions

Thats probably the worst idea for them. The Japan/Asia market is a very good market for them. I think NWA idea of having a hub in the Europe and Asia side is absolutely brilliant..giving them a WORLD presence.

I think NWA's strategy is try to lower cost in every way without forcing the withdrawl of routes. NWA takes and should be very proud of their Route Network and as with any airline, they would love to preserve their route network as much as they can, as obviously trimming youre route also trims the number of passengars which in turn also trims the amount of income.


User currently offlineCtbarnes From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3491 posts, RR: 50
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4524 times:

Checking the AMFA, PFAA, and IAM websites there is no mention of this. Either this is a pro-forma move by the Company the unions are not terribly bothered about, it is not necessarily accurate, or it is a bargaining chip to extract more concessions from the unions.

Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 2):
I hope NWA goes under and it hurts them just like they have hurt the employees. I hope Steenland feels the pain. He has pissed off so many people. NWA DOES NOT HAVE A PLACE IN THE SKIES ANYMORE... AWAY WITH THEM!!!

If NW liquidates I guarantee it will hurt their employees. This kind of "off with their heads" attitude is just not helpful.

Charles, SJ

(Edited for spelling and accuracy)

[Edited 2005-10-25 18:43:51]


The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7421 posts, RR: 50
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4469 times:
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Interesting thing here, the article is dated 31OCTOBER2005


Made from jets!
User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7421 posts, RR: 50
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4449 times:
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Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 2):
I hope NWA goes under and it hurts them just like they have hurt the employees. I hope Steenland feels the pain. He has pissed off so many people. NWA DOES NOT HAVE A PLACE IN THE SKIES ANYMORE... AWAY WITH THEM!!!

I salute your hatred for Steenland, but I hope you would like to see Steenland pulled from the ranks and thrown in jail rather than see NW actually go down. Most of us would like NW to survive, but with a better managment team.



Made from jets!
User currently offlineUAcosCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4438 times:

Quoting Ahdharia (Reply 6):
Thats probably the worst idea for them. The Japan/Asia market is a very good market for them. I think NWA idea of having a hub in the Europe and Asia side is absolutely brilliant..giving them a WORLD presence.

They may have world presence, but they arent a world player. My opinion.


User currently offlineDCrawley From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 371 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4401 times:

Quoting Ahdharia (Reply 6):
I think NWA's strategy is try to lower cost in every way without forcing the withdrawl of routes.

IMO, they are going to have to lose some routes and frequencies.

Quoting Ahdharia (Reply 6):
NWA takes and should be very proud of their Route Network and as with any airline, they would love to preserve their route network as much as they can

As much as I would like to agree with you, unfortunately in the airline industry it's profit over pride and some routes will go..

-d



"Weather at our destination is 50 degrees with some broken clouds, but they'll try to have them fixed before we arrive."
User currently offlineAhdharia From United States of America, joined May 2004, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4401 times:
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Quoting UAcosCS (Reply 10):
They may have world presence, but they arent a world player. My opinion

How would you not call them a world player? I dont see them trying to stifle competition like British Airways tried to do in London with Virgin Atlantic back then.

What opinion do you have that leads you to conclude that NWA is not a world player?


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26709 posts, RR: 75
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4386 times:

[quote=Jetdeltamsy,reply=4]Yea, but you shutdown the company and 35,000 employees will suffer.quote]

And they wont suffer in a job that pays them barely enough to survive?



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineAhdharia From United States of America, joined May 2004, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4384 times:
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Quoting DCrawley (Reply 11):
As much as I would like to agree with you, unfortunately in the airline industry it's profit over pride and some routes will go..

Oh I agree with you as well. Some routes will have to go unfortunately, but they are trying their best to preserve all of them.

Some will have to go and it will be sad, but also...I want them stay ALIVE!

NWA is the ONLY airline I enjoy flying in the USA.


User currently offlineAirScoot From United States of America, joined May 2005, 688 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4381 times:

He works for their main competition in Asia (UA)?

User currently offlineAhdharia From United States of America, joined May 2004, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4368 times:
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Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
And they wont suffer in a job that pays them barely enough to survive?

Oh they will survive just fine...just like the rest of us who have either got layed off or taken drastic salary cuts as well.

The only thing they will miss is their luxury lifestyle they could enjoy with their cushy salaries.


User currently offlineUAcosCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4335 times:

Quoting Ahdharia (Reply 12):
What opinion do you have that leads you to conclude that NWA is not a world player?

That is my opinion, you now have to deal with it. NWA is just another airline, they have world presence, but being a player is shaking things up. They don't control UAL in the pacific rim, they aren't a player in Europe without KLM, they have no presence in South America, No flight to Australia, horrible DC-9's domestically, that is my opinion, player and presence is a different word in more ways than one.

Quoting AirScoot (Reply 15):
He works for their main competition in Asia (UA)?

You are a rocket man!


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13703 posts, RR: 61
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4315 times:
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Quoting Ahdharia (Reply 16):
The only thing they will miss is their luxury lifestyle

So things like food, mortgage payments and gasoline are luxuries to you?



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineAhdharia From United States of America, joined May 2004, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4308 times:
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Quoting UAcosCS (Reply 17):
That is my opinion, you now have to deal with it. NWA is just another airline, they have world presence, but being a player is shaking things up. They don't control UAL in the pacific rim, they aren't a player in Europe without KLM, they have no presence in South America, No flight to Australia, horrible DC-9's domestically, that is my opinion, player and presence is a different word in more ways than one.

Of course it is your opinion, that is why I am asking of what your thoughts are.
NWA does have a presence in Europe without KLM, they have quite a few destinations in Europe they fly directly. But besides, it always in any airlines best interest to partner with other airlines for service. AA, UAL, others do the same thing. Personally NWA partnering with Continental, and KLM is a good business decision, even for any other company that partners. AA is just now starting service to India. For this long they partnered with Air India on ORD to India routes.

I will agree with you that the DC-9's are horrible and no fun.

And yes they did take away their route to Sydney which I once flew on and personally I think its a bad decision.

But I still feel NWA has a nice word presence or player and done so in smart business methods.


User currently offlineAhdharia From United States of America, joined May 2004, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4291 times:
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Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 18):
So things like food, mortgage payments and gasoline are luxuries to you?

I personally have been managing to get buy just fine with Food, Gas, and Mortgage payments. And I also have taken DRASTIC pay cuts at my work as well.

It is well known that NWA mechanics have been paid quite a bit higher than the industry average for quite sometime.

Again the AMFA had their chance then...but are now completely screwed and its their fault. They had the chance then to keep approx 1800 employees and now may only get to keep 500 if that even.

Gee that strike did a lot of good....


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26709 posts, RR: 75
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4289 times:

Quoting Ahdharia (Reply 16):
The only thing they will miss is their luxury lifestyle they could enjoy with their cushy salaries.

Cushy salaries? You mean the ones that can't even buy them a starter home in many cities in the US?



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineAhdharia From United States of America, joined May 2004, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4265 times:
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Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
Cushy salaries? You mean the ones that can't even buy them a starter home in many cities in the US?

And actually yeah starter homes in US can be quite affordable. Just need to look and shop smart.


User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4251 times:

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 1):
NW has already busted their mechanics union and while they are all but likely to gain their desired concessions from the FA's as well, I don't think any airline would/could break the ALPA.

Famous last words. Consider the words of Pastor Niemoller.

First they came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me.

by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945


User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4238 times:

Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 2):
I hope NWA goes under and it hurts them just like they have hurt the employees

I find you lack of compassion disturbing. You want 35,000 people to suffer to get even with ONE man? I would think you would just say to replace the management and start over.......

Quoting Ahdharia (Reply 20):
Gee that strike did a lot of good....

They may have been better to take Hemlock. A lot less fuss and bother.



One Nation Under God
25 Mrocktor : So, how exactly is the company you work for responsible for the obligations you assumed? Why is it your employer's responsibility to keep you fed and
26 N1120A : Um, yeah, sure they are. Hence why a family of 4 needs 4 times what your average FA or mechanic CURRENTLY makes in many communities? The obligation t
27 D L X : Just to give you all an idea of how powerful NW's presence in Japan is, I'll tell you this little story. When I was in college, I took Japanese langu
28 Mrocktor : Yes, it does. You are responsible for your life. If the employer does not pay enough to support your life you need to find another job. Or two. Curio
29 N1120A : There are only so many hours in a day, and only so many hours a day that are healthy for a human being to work, particularly when doing a physically
30 Ahdharia : It seems some you think that just because NWA signed a contract with its employees, that it must honor that forever despite all other factors. Heres a
31 Ahdharia : Hmm...thats interesting....I make less than youre average FA or mechanic and yet I still drive a $40,000 car and own a 4 bedroom house.....Hmmmm.....
32 TPASXM787 : Problem with this is, if and only if the company cannot pay these salaries due to liquidity, then they must be renegotiated. They can be liable all a
33 B744F : Did you miss the "in many communities" part? Do you work and own the home by yourself? What are you doing buying such an expensive car in the first p
34 Ahdharia : Thats all fine and dandy and makes complete sense. But you seem to be ignoring the important factor. The company needs to have the resources to pay y
35 B744F : If only life were so easy...
36 Ctbarnes : Two jobs, which together pay barely enough to get by, may or may not pay adequate benefits, an implicit suggestion if you call in sick you're fired,
37 BR715-A1-30 : You're right... I do apologize. Never thought of it like that. I just want to see Steenland Roast at HIGH HEAT!!!. Let all of the employees turn him.
38 Greasespot : AMFA is not to blame....The executive cannot force the members to sign a contract. Remember the terms were going to see 54 percent lose their jobs. So
39 Post contains images EA CO AS : So since you're ok with your pay cut everyone else has to be as well? No, but that's an asinine comment on your part since I made no such claim. My p
40 Ahdharia : I never said that I am ok with it. I said I've learned to live with it and manage. I dont have much of a choice...I would rather be employed...unlike
41 Ahdharia : Nope not really....Bottom line is do you wish to remain employed....AMFA chose not to.....
42 N1120A : Um, that is the point of a contract Northwest should have thought about high costs when they decided to have the oldest average fleet of any US major
43 DeltaGator : They chose that job. If they feel they are underpaid they can look elsewhere. What's that? They don't have any marketable skills outside of the airli
44 Dougloid : No, you pendejo. It's not a game. The taxpayers lose because NWA gets to dump their pension obligations on the public purse, stiffs their creditors,
45 AirRyan : NW isn't going to dump their pensions as the Senate has already approved in theory to include the airlines in the pension reform bill soon to be vote
46 Derik737 : WRONG WRONG AGAIN If you wanted to tell the truth, you would have said, "AMFA would not agree to Northwest's pay and job cut mandate (which NW would
47 RAMPRAT980 : Militant ? Nah. I think its outright "bars in the window crazy." If this were to be true, nullify all the contracts. Force a major cut in pay to all
48 Dougloid : Then I guess you have inside information that NW is just going to fork up the 60 million that they conveniently forgot to pay right before they filed
49 N1120A : Right, they chose that job knowing they would make a certain amount and planning on that. It just further invalidates your previous claims when you w
50 Mrocktor : I'm sorry for misinterpreting and misrepresenting your point. You are correct in what you state above. You have to be incredibly foolish to think tha
51 N1120A : Of course you have to think about your life. That is why you enter into a work contract, so you can plan A contract has the force of the most powerfu
52 Post contains images Ctbarnes : Never say never. We often delude ourselves into thinking we are the masters of our own universe. Assuming responsibility for our situation is importa
53 Mrocktor : And you should plan for the risk of a default on the contract. I disagree. The most powerful thing in the human universe is reason. Being an atheist
54 Ctbarnes : Not really. And I speak from experience. This sounds like a contradiction. Charles, SJ
55 DeltaGator : What invalidates what claim? That I made a statement in that French homeless have "struck" or protested for additional government benefits? That they
56 N1120A : You can only do so much when you are already living on a medium income Untrue. You assume that the human being is capable of complete rationality, wh
57 Dougloid : Nice...I never knew that man was perfectible and here we have the proof of it, right under our noses as it were. Half baked malarkey. Ethics are mora
58 Ahdharia : N1120A - How much do you think mechanics at NWA were making? How much do think is their average salary? By the way..NWA's fleet despite it being hold
59 Mrocktor : Read it again. You must do as much as it takes. You are entirely correct, not all men can be rational and few if any can be rational all the time. An
60 N1120A : Except of course that near half of the NW fleet has no resale, or, more importantly, no mortgagable value. United and USAirways were both able to get
61 Coronado : The only conclusion I can come up with is that NWA was grossly overstaffed. WN maintains their (larger) fleet with 1800 mechanics. Should not have AMF
62 N1120A : I don't think WN does D-checks. If that is true, that would contribute.
63 Derik737 : WN does not perform the majority of their "heavy" checks on their airplanes. WN does not have backshops repairing items such as seats, actuators, avi
64 DeltaGator : Perhaps you do more about law and politics than I do but we'll never know so that is a bold statement to make. My background is Congressional politic
65 Ctbarnes : That was uncalled for. I pointed out an apparent contradiction in your posting. I was not being sarcastic, nor was I personally attacking you. The le
66 AirRyan : Don't forget the 5 year gap between when the FAA mandates airline pilot retirement and the age 65 at which they can begin to collect. As long as the
67 Anxebla : OR 3.- Offering company's shares to employees in order to avoid those 2 points just like IB did 8/10 years ago[Edited 2005-10-27 05:22:42]
68 Dougloid : Little bit of the sour grapes there? Ummmmmm, the AMFA people aren't getting paid, are they? So who's picking your pocket? Take a look at the signatu
69 Mrocktor : No. And we shouldn't pay for thair mistakes either. Fair enough. I take it you have understood why it's not a contradiction, but I'll spell it out as
70 Dougloid : Kinda funny that a person in Brazil would have this point of view with all that you have on display there...well, Lula has your number boyee ....char
71 AirRyan : What color is the sky in the world you live in? No one forced the mechs to walk off the job and no one is preventing them finding another job; no one
72 Dougloid : Let's just bring the discussion back to the center point. What's up with the Camel and oil wells nonsense? You don't think NW is going to bust ALPA? T
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