Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Intra-European Travel By US Carriers  
User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7762 posts, RR: 16
Posted (14 years 1 month 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2167 times:

both Pan Am and TWA operated extensive intra-european flight schedules in their heyday. How was this possible. Nowadays I believe EU rules would prohibit or restrict such activites, plus no foreign carrier can do such operations in the US for revunue, unless they continue on from the original point of embarkation. So how did this work, and how could it work now.

Thanks for the insight in advance

-brad


Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5566 posts, RR: 36
Reply 1, posted (14 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2086 times:

I the times before 1989 only allied airlines (GB, France, US and USSR) were allowed to fly to Berlin. That's why PanAm for example had a lot of flights from western European cities to Berlin.

User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7762 posts, RR: 16
Reply 2, posted (14 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2056 times:

Doesn't anyone have anything about this, or did it just fall into the abyss?


Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently offlineDeltaAir From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1094 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (14 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2048 times:

Delta took over PanAm's operations out of Frankfurt until the early to mid 1990s. The routes became unprofitable and were stopped. They were operated by 727s in Delta colors.

User currently offlineIshky15 From United States of America, joined May 2000, 717 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (14 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2037 times:

I know that DL had a hub in FRA, but how much service did they operate out of it? I know that now they only have like 4 daily flts there: 1 JFK, 2 ATL, 1 DEL.

User currently offlineCody From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1932 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (14 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2037 times:

It is my understanding that TWA only was able to carry passengers that would eventually make it to the U.S. For example, a passenger originating in the U.S. could fly to say Zurich from New York through Paris. I don't believe that a Frenchman could buy a ticket to Zurich from Paris though. I'm not sure. I have heard so many different versions of this that I am confused. But that is what I gather. Now there may have been a few places where TWA had fifth freedom rights to fly between countries outside ofthe U.S. I believe UAL and NWA do this in the Orient. Pan Am on the otehr hand was unique. They had authority to operate from Berline to several other German cities. this was prior to the unification of germany and Lufthansa was not able to operate into Berlin. Now they can so I doubt we will ever see a U.S. carrier do that again. As for Pan Am's many other routes throughout Europe, I don't know how they could carry passengers between countries outside the U.S. Could it happen today, yes I believe under certain circumstances it could. I tested this idea one day recently when I called TWA reservations and asked them to quote me a price between Cairo and Riyadh. They did and tehy gave me a schedule and didn't even ask if I was an American. I know I probably haven't helped much, but this is what I gather. Basically I think it was like codesharing only with your own airline. HEY! Codesharing with other airlines.....that's probably a good reason you do not see this anymore.

User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7762 posts, RR: 16
Reply 6, posted (14 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2027 times:

Yeah, that was kinda what I was thinking. Back in the Juan Trippe days through the 70's Pan Am probably could, and did, pretty much everything to have markets throughout the world. I know they had the Frankfurt hub with the Berlin shuttle with 727's, 737's, and later the 'Buses... plus I think they did the same from Heathrow as well... at least i have seen plenty of pictures of 737s and 727s at Heathrow. This seems like something that wouldn't happen today... I don't think any airline would want to dedicate aircraft for internal routes on another continent. The costs of maintaining them far away in countries with different labour laws and practices and keeping spares and all that would just be a nightmare.


Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently offlineCody From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1932 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (14 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2024 times:

Well I don't know. With the capability of a 757 to fly across the ocean, maybe we will see it again. Maybe United could operate a daily 757 to LHR and then have it continue to somewhere else in Europe. That way they would not be flying this hug 747 from LHR to say AMS. They could also allow other inbound flights to LHR connect onto this one. The 757 could then fly back to the US and have maintenance work there. At one time, it appears that Pan Am's Frankfurt hub was larget than the JFK hub.

User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7762 posts, RR: 16
Reply 8, posted (14 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2022 times:

ACTUALLY, funny you should bring that up... UA does operate through service from LHR to Amsterdam and Brussels... and someone once said to CDG, but I doubt that. I think the through services are on 763's though... originating in JFK, ORD, or IAD. But then United did get their Heathrow slots from Pan Am when they bought the LHR hub in 1991...... so maybe.... maybe not.  


Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently offlineEg777er From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 1836 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (14 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2012 times:

This was the huge argument BA had with AA (funny they were to link up later) and the FAA in the early 90s (1990 if I remember correctly). I think it was something to do with cabotage - basically BA were pissed that when they flew into the states they had to fly directly out again - they couldn't pick up passengers and offer a domestic service. In comparison, Pan Am, TWA et al at LHR could fly all over Europe with their 727s.

Does anyone know the current state of play on this? When will BA be allowed to fly domestic in the US, and UA domestic in the EU for example?


User currently offlineNycank From United States of America, joined May 2000, 233 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (14 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2006 times:

Both PanAM and TWA had sub-contracts for hauling military personnel from
one loc. to another.

Currently DL's FRA hub (???) serves only BOM. DL 106 and DL107 are
LAX-JFK-FRA-BOM route. It also serves as aggregation point for CVG and ATL.


User currently offlineAvion From Bouvet Island, joined May 1999, 2205 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (14 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2000 times:

All intra EU flight rights are gone for US carriers. TWA can still operate Paris-Munich but its not allowed to carry O& D traffic. When TWA and Pan AM operated these flights there was no EU and it wasn't a domestic operation. So i doubt that any US airline will ever do intra EU operations again. They cant carry local passengers.
If ever the US opens the US domestic market to EU carriers the US carriers will receive the same rights for Eu. I personnally like that idea.

Avion


User currently offlineUK-TWA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (14 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1992 times:

Avion: Your assertion that TWA can still fly from Paris to Munich is false. All these route authorities were lost, when France cancelled the bilateral aviation treaty with the U.S. . U.S. airlines couldnt fly these routes, even if they didn't offer local service, i.e. CDG-MUC.

http://www.econstrat.org/ECONSTRAT/jocfrair.htm


Currently, U.S. carriers only have the right to fly from CDG to TLV and CAI, and this includes local traffic rights. The authority is restricted to 11 weekly flights, and no more than 7 weekly flights are allowed to each of the stations. TWA recently applied for 7 weekly frequencies on the CDG-TLV route, and expects to launch service later this year. This leaves four weekly frequencies to CAI, which are currently not used by any U.S. carrier. TWA may pick those up, too.
Another exception exists for freight airlines. This enabled Fedex to set up a European hub at CDG.

Eventually, when an open-skies agreement between the U.S. and France has been implemented, U.S. airlines will have blanket authority to operate an unlimited number of flights to France AND beyond, however still with no local traffic rights. This won't happen until 2003, though - unless Air France puts some pressure on the French government, so speed it up. They may choose to do this, because the U.S. government will refuse the DL/AF alliance antitrust immunity, unless an open-skies agreement is fully implemented.


User currently offlineUK-TWA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (14 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1992 times:

Avion: Your assertion that TWA can still fly from Paris to Munich is plain wrong. All these route authorities were lost, when France cancelled the bilateral aviation treaty with the U.S. in '92. U.S. airlines couldnt fly these routes, even if they didn't offer local service, i.e. CDG-MUC.

http://www.econstrat.org/ECONSTRAT/jocfrair.htm


Currently, U.S. carriers only have beyond-rights from Paris to TLV and CAI, and this even includes local traffic rights. The authority is restricted to 11 weekly flights, and no more than 7 weekly flights are allowed to each of the stations. TWA recently applied for 7 weekly frequencies on the CDG-TLV route, and expects to launch service later this year. This leaves four weekly frequencies to CAI, which are currently not used by any U.S. carrier. TWA may pick those up, too.
Another exception exists for freight airlines. This enabled Fedex to set up a European hub at CDG.

Eventually, when an open-skies agreement between the U.S. and France has been implemented, U.S. airlines will have blanket authority to operate an unlimited number of flights to France AND beyond, however still with no local traffic rights. This won't happen until 2003, though - unless Air France puts some pressure on the French government, so speed it up. They may choose to do this, because the U.S. government will refuse the DL/AF alliance antitrust immunity, unless an open-skies agreement is fully implemented.


User currently offlineBOS-CDG From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (14 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1984 times:

I'm pretty sure that at least until 1993, United was flying on the Paris-Athens route and vice-versa...I do not know where in the US the aircrafts were heading for...

User currently offlineAF Cabin Crew From French Polynesia, joined Sep 1999, 1040 posts, RR: 34
Reply 15, posted (14 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1992 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

After readin this post I went in my "archives" and found a PAN AM timetable effective May 1st 1991.
Here is the list of flights operated intra-Europe or to other beyond destinations :

AMS-BRU
AMS-HAM
BCN-LIS
BRU-GVA
BRU-HAM
BUD-VIE
FRA-SVO
FRA-LED
FRA-BEG-OTP
FRA-IST-ESB
FRA-IST-OTP
FRA-PRG-BEG
FRA-PRG-KRK
FRA-WAW-OTP
FRA-WAW-LED
FRA-ZAG
FRA-NBO
FRA-RUH-KHI
FRA-DEL
FRA-BOM
FRA-ATH*
FRA-BUD*
FRA-STR*
GVA-CDG
HAM-TXL
HAJ-TXL
HEL-FBU
HEL-ARN
CDG-TLV
NUE-TXL
ZRH-MUC
TXL-Westerland

Flights with a * indicate that no-traffic rights allowed. All others had traffic rights and flights were either operated with 727's in continuation of flight PA60 on A310 or 747 from IAD to FRA, or in continuation of flight PA72 on 747 from JFK to FRA, Apart for another 727 that was based in CDG and did the CDG-GVA, all other flights were operated with the same aircraft, mainly A310, as the one that came from the originating station.

hope it helps,

Happy Flying,

AF Cabin Crew.


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Kazutaka Yagi




Ia Maitai to tatou tere !
User currently offlineCody From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1932 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (14 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1970 times:

Why does France allow US carriers the right to fly to Tel Aviv and Cairo but no where else?

User currently offlinePatroni From Luxembourg, joined Aug 1999, 1403 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (14 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1958 times:

Until 2 years ago, DL had the right to sell seats on the European legs of their JFK-Stuttgart-Budapest (or was it Prague?) flight as well as on the ATL-AMS-STR flight and all versions of the Berlin-USA flight (TXL-Copenhagen-JFK, Warsaw-TXL-JFK).

PA and later DL used to have a large network of feeder services ex FRA and TXL. UA had one 727 parked at Berlin TXL just to operate the feeder to their LHR-USA longrange flights.....

Now Iberia has several DC-9's in MIA for connecting flights (also locally bookable) to Middle America...

Thomas


User currently offlineAvion From Bouvet Island, joined May 1999, 2205 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (14 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1949 times:

Iberia can pick up pax at MIA for flights to middle america because this is iberia's latin american division. Because these countries in middle america were spanish colonies Iberia has rights from and to those countries.

Avion


Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Current Aircraft Orders Held By US Carriers posted Sun Apr 23 2006 18:39:40 by PanAm330
Intra-European Travel posted Sun Jun 6 2004 10:55:07 by Dukebluedevil
LF On USA/Italy Flights By US Carriers posted Fri Apr 30 2004 20:48:55 by Lxsaab2000
US Carriers/Intra European Flights posted Sat Oct 23 1999 22:04:28 by Flyf15
$50 Fare Inc By US Legacy Carriers... posted Sat Apr 8 2006 00:03:12 by AirRyan
727 Operations By US Legacy Carriers posted Tue Jun 14 2005 22:08:21 by Wheelsatc
India Overlooked By Canadian & US Carriers? posted Sat Oct 9 2004 09:52:13 by Asianguy767
US Airlines Intra-European Routes? posted Sun Dec 9 2001 21:05:50 by M.Seles_Fan
* Alliance Carriers On Intra-European Routes posted Fri Apr 20 2001 19:10:57 by Zrs70
Served By All US Carriers.... posted Tue Mar 6 2001 05:09:58 by JJJM