Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Flybaboo To Link Geneva And Zurich  
User currently offlineRunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2194 posts, RR: 35
Posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3088 times:

Geneva based Flybaboo have announced they will begin serving Geneva with Zurich twice per day (1x during weekends), using Dash-8-300 aircraft. Return fares all inclusive start at 272CHF which is more than both the swiss rail (CFF/SBB operated twice per hour) and Swiss who currently fly the route 8x per day. In addition to this they will also compete with people just driving between both cities.

The airline apparently plans to increase service to 4x daily when it receives it's Q400 aircraft joining the fleet early next year.

I find this is quite a foolish decision, and unfortunately it seems what used to be a well thought out airline operating in niche markets is now competing against two well implemented products/firms.

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineCambrian From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 619 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3071 times:

I really can't see how they will compete with both LX and CFF on this route.
LX have multiple daily frequencies and operate jets- a better option all round.


User currently offlineHAJFlyer From Switzerland, joined Sep 2005, 1473 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3071 times:

This is great news !

However, I am not very confident that they will be able to make money on this route as Swiss is already retaliating with special fares of CHF 88 for a return trip. Furthermore Swiss does offer jet equipment and a lot more daily flights so I doubt if Flybaboo will be able to attract business travelers.

The big loser will be SBB (Swiss federal railways), if LX fares stay this low thanks to competition.

[Edited 2005-10-26 16:33:56]

User currently offlineRunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2194 posts, RR: 35
Reply 3, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3084 times:

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 2):
This is great news !

Yes if you wish them to be liquidated.

SBB will and will remain more competitive with two departures per hour from each end offering a lot more flexibility and without the hassle of having to go to the airports.

Flybaboo's prices are also higher than LX's, don't have the attractivity that Swiss' FFP has and only have two frequencies. Add to that a dash8 which will prove to be less popular than Airbus A320s/Avros on the route.

Quite frankly there are a lot of better routes which flybaboo could have operated from GVA (BHX pops to one's mind). Why compete against Swiss and CFF on what is already a very crowded route.


User currently offlineHAJFlyer From Switzerland, joined Sep 2005, 1473 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3056 times:

Quoting Runway23 (Reply 3):
Quite frankly there are a lot of better routes which flybaboo could have operated from GVA

 checkmark 

Quoting Runway23 (Reply 3):
Yes if you wish them to be liquidated.

I should have said "This is great for LX passengers, because it brings us lower fares".


User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2987 times:

Hmm... higher fares than LX, less flights per day, smaller equipment (I wouldn't mind, but lots of people do)...

What were they thinking when they made this decision???

It makes no sense, unless they expect the anti-LX-minded people from the French-speaking part of Switzerland to flock to them, just because they can avoid LX...

Personally, I'd probably take the train anyhow...  Wink

... just like I'll probably be taking the train on my regular (2-4 times per month) excursions to Frankfurt from now on: on my last flight, the complete travelling time from my door in Frankfurt to my door in Zürich was about 30 minutes longer than when I last took the ICE from Frankfurt... I love flying, but if it takes longer than taking the train? Nope.

Regards,
Frank



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineSwissgabe From Switzerland, joined Jan 2000, 5266 posts, RR: 33
Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2977 times:

In a press interview they said, that if they have a marketshare of 15 to 20 % they will be at the break even point. I don't agree to that at all as it depends much more on yield, revenue and operation cost.

I assume that LX doesn't have a very high yield as most pax transfer at ZRH to destinations beyond. It will be essential for FlyBaboo to have a lot of SPA agreements with other carriers (mainly long haul) into/out of ZRH. Similar thing is being done with Styrian flying into ZRH.



Smooth as silk - Royal Orchid Service /// Suid-Afrikaanse Lugdiens - Springbok
User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5568 posts, RR: 36
Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2963 times:

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 2):
The big loser will be SBB (Swiss federal railways), if LX fares stay this low thanks to competition.

I am not sure. They have, as said, two trains per hour which take only 2 hours 43 minutes, from city center to city center. When you take into account the time to/from the airport, the time you have to check-in before the flight and the deboarding time (even when you have no checked luggage), then the flight is not much faster between these two cities. The price of SBB is less than LX, only CHF 77.-- (return) if you have a so called Halbtax-Abo (half prize) which most Swiss residents have. If you don't have it, you pay CHF 154.--.


User currently offlinePipoA380 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1594 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2950 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting ZRH (Reply 7):
If you don't have it, you pay CHF 154.--.

Very, very expensive. I don't have the Demi-Tarif (Halbtax)...
Still cheaper than Fly Baboo and LX flights usually. A saturday return ticket for January was over 300 francs... I'll take the car, thank you!

Stupid decision IMO, I wouldn't take such a flight, because Dash8 isn't very interesting to fly, and because it's way too expensive....

Cheers,
Philippe



It's not about AIRBUS. it's not about BOEING. It's all about the beauty of FLYING.
User currently offlineRootsAir From Costa Rica, joined Feb 2005, 4186 posts, RR: 40
Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2924 times:

Quoting ZRH" class=quote target=_blank>ZRH (Reply 7):
if you have a so called Halbtax-Abo (half prize) which most Swiss residents have. If you don't have it, you pay CHF 154.--.

Haha I have Abonnement General (GA for the German part)so its free(well ok i pay 200 francs a month but I luse the train largely above 200 francs worth) For the winter a.net meeting I guess i'll make it to ZRH by train but will go back by plane just for the sake of flying. LX costs 349 to GVA whileflybaboo will charge twice as less....for the price I'll try out a Dash8-300 for the first time...
Best way to end an a.net meet !

[Edited 2005-10-26 19:41:32]


A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
User currently offlineRootsAir From Costa Rica, joined Feb 2005, 4186 posts, RR: 40
Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2919 times:

Quoting Runway23 (Thread starter):
Return fares all inclusive start at 272CHF which is more than both the swiss rail (CFF/SBB operated twice per hour) and Swiss who currently fly the route 8x per day

no not true...including taxes Swiss has much higher prices



A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
User currently offlineRunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2194 posts, RR: 35
Reply 11, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2908 times:

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 10):
no not true...including taxes Swiss has much higher prices

Bullshit, check the lowest fare on swiss.com (which is typically more expensive than expedia) and you'll see their lowest return fare including taxes is 201CHF:

Adults Fare CHF 88.00
Fuel surcharge, Airport taxes CHF 113.00
Total 1 adult CHF 201.00

Flybaboo's cheapest comes out to 272.25:

VAT-liable 253.00
VAT 7.6% 19.25
Total CHF 272.25

Also mentionnable is that flybaboo seem to be the only airline to list prices without VAT then add an additional 7.6% to them.


User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5568 posts, RR: 36
Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2905 times:

Quoting PipoA380 (Reply 8):
I'll take the car, thank you!

I think taking the car between Geneva and Zurich is the worst solution. It is more expensive than the train and the travel time is longer (at least when you drive within the speed limits, most of the time you have to do it anyway because of the traffic). The worst about the car is the highway between Bern and Zurich. It is always an ugly mess with way too much traffic. I hate it really and try to avoid it like hell.


User currently offlineRootsAir From Costa Rica, joined Feb 2005, 4186 posts, RR: 40
Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2893 times:

Quoting Runway23 (Reply 11):
Bullshit, check the lowest fare on swiss.com (which is typically more expensive than expedia) and you'll see their lowest return fare including taxes is 201CHF:

Ya you really have to be very lucky to get this fare. And its not everytime you get it !!!¨You susually end up paying 340 the return fare

Quoting Runway23 (Reply 11):

Flybaboo's cheapest comes out to 272.25:

VAT-liable 253.00
VAT 7.6% 19.25
Total CHF 272.25

Also mentionnable is that flybaboo seem to be the only airline to list prices without VAT then add an additional 7.6% to them.

Oh don't forget that with swiss a one way ticket is 349 francs + taxes...FlyBaboo will charge twice as less

[Edited 2005-10-26 20:01:10]


A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
User currently offlineRunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2194 posts, RR: 35
Reply 14, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2880 times:

Quoting ZRH (Reply 7):
The price of SBB is less than LX, only CHF 77.-- (return) if you have a so called Halbtax-Abo (half prize) which most Swiss residents have. If you don't have it, you pay CHF 154.--.

Actually that is correct but also not quite what people will pay. If you have a demi-tarif/halbtax you can get an unlimited day return card for CHF 54 which is obviously lower than CHF 77.

In terms of pricing this is the outcome of a day return:

CFF/SBB: CHF 54 (154 without abo) [~34x per day]
Driving: CHF 102 (taking average consumption/gas prices, excluding car costs)
Swisshansa: CHF 201 [9x daily]
Flybaboo: CHF 272.25 [2x daily]

Oh well I guess people will take flybaboo for their new lounge with Imacs and Ipods *not*. (And god knows how much money they wasted there). Somehow I'm starting to wonder if they are trying to run an airline or circus.


User currently offlineRunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2194 posts, RR: 35
Reply 15, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2877 times:

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 13):
Ya you really have to be very lucky to get this fare. And its not everytime you get it !!!¨You susually end up paying 340 the return fare

I didn't claim anything. I was talking about BASE FARES . I doubt flybaboo's prices will eternally stick at 272.25CHF they will likely exceed the figure you have given.

Unless you work for either airlines there is no way of knowing what the average fare paid is. The figures will also be skewed as Swiss use the flights as feeders whilst flybaboo are going on point to point.


User currently offlineMbm3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 842 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2873 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I would much rather take SBB between ZRH and GVA than a flight of any kind. I cant imagine that it saves you all that much time to fly and the train service is a lot more reliable and relaxing (espescially in poor weather).

Plus, the train definitely allows more opportunity to work, read or the like.



Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
User currently offlineRunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2194 posts, RR: 35
Reply 17, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2866 times:

Quoting Mbm3 (Reply 16):
I would much rather take SBB between ZRH and GVA than a flight of any kind. I cant imagine that it saves you all that much time to fly and the train service is a lot more reliable and relaxing (espescially in poor weather).

Plus, the train definitely allows more opportunity to work, read or the like

I think anyone except people transferring on a flight or actually doing work right next to both airports will agree with your position.

Point is that SBB/CFF have a great network, and I doubt for example someone from Lausanne is going to backtrack to Geneva just to take a flight to Zurich.

I hope flybaboo will realise that this is the biggest mistake they have made since their launch and hopefully don't waste too much money on what will surely be a loss making flight.


User currently offlineRootsAir From Costa Rica, joined Feb 2005, 4186 posts, RR: 40
Reply 18, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2862 times:

OK chose guys

http://www.airventure.de/ZHKlotenpics/SWISS%20-%20Avro%20RJ100%20anflug%20RW%2014.jpg

http://www.planespotting.nl/dhc8/HB-JEJ.jpg

http://www.photos-trains.ch/photos/galleries/Suisse/CFF/automotrices/RABDe_500/CFF_RBDe_500_ICN_Bussigny.jpg




A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
User currently offlineRunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2194 posts, RR: 35
Reply 19, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2850 times:

Very nice usage of pictures makes me think back to my time in 2nd grade.

Now the inclusion of the Avro is nice, but they are only used on two of the nine daily flights (rest are A32S).

Also why include two CFF trains?

I almost forgot, as the famous saying goes "Baboo c'est de la boue"


User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5568 posts, RR: 36
Reply 20, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2839 times:

Quoting Runway23 (Reply 19):
Also why include two CFF trains?

There are two different routes with two different trains. One is Geneva-Lausanne-Bern-Zurich with the double deck trains (IC). The other route is Geneva-Neuchâtel-Biel-Zurich with the other train (ICN). The ICN is faster in the curves because it can bend into it. For both routes the travel time is exactly the same: 2 hours 43 minutes.

[Edited 2005-10-26 20:45:42]

User currently offlineRootsAir From Costa Rica, joined Feb 2005, 4186 posts, RR: 40
Reply 21, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days ago) and read 2797 times:

Quoting ZRH (Reply 20):
The ICN is faster in the curves because it can bend into it

Its soo cool to see a second thread where we talk about ICN and Intercity trains!

ICN beindinmg in curves has been a polemic here. many people get "seasick" because of them and many conductors cannot evenuse this line because they become sick...yays



A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
User currently offlineSemsem From Israel, joined Jul 2005, 1779 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days ago) and read 2767 times:

Most people who go between Zurich / GVA go by train, unless they are connecting on to other flights in Zurich. The fares are too high and I think they will not do well on this route.

User currently offlineHAJFlyer From Switzerland, joined Sep 2005, 1473 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (8 years 11 months 4 days ago) and read 2761 times:

Quoting Semsem (Reply 22):
Most people who go between Zurich / GVA go by train

Not necessarily. I have flown ZRH-GVA-ZRH leaving ZRH in the morning and getting back in the evening quite few times on business and I know a lot of other guys who wouldn't even dream about taking the train for a day trip.

There definitely is quite a bit of O&D traffic; a large part of it generated by the financial services industry.


Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again posted Mon Oct 3 2005 16:56:16 by Cambrian
Charter Service To Link IAH And Russia posted Fri Jul 9 2004 15:07:17 by Drerx7
Etihad Airways To Launch Geneva And Munich posted Sat Feb 7 2004 23:20:46 by Teahan
Qatar Airways To Link Kathmandu And KL? posted Thu Jan 16 2003 05:53:09 by Airpearl
Varig To Link Miami And Salvador, Brazil Non-stop posted Thu May 30 2002 02:50:37 by Mah4546
FlyBaboo To Increase GVA-ZRH And Reduce Fares! posted Mon Feb 20 2006 11:22:25 by RootsAir
SAS To Cut LGW And Geneva posted Wed Dec 15 2004 01:55:16 by Soups
US Direct To Geneva, And International Question posted Sat Nov 15 2003 15:59:29 by Pilotpip
Gulf Air To Milan,Rome And Geneva posted Tue May 8 2001 17:56:06 by GF-A330
African Star Airways To Link SA, UK And Germany posted Wed Feb 14 2001 20:06:52 by Saa