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Midwest MD-80 Replacement  
User currently offlineHermansCVR580 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 504 posts, RR: 1
Posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4585 times:

I remember seeing a post awhile back when it was announced that since the 717 was no longer going to be produced that Midwest was looking to Boeing and Airbus for an MD-80 replacement. Has there been any new news on that? My money would be on Boeing 737-700's  Smile With the 737's or the A-319's they could really open up some new markets like SEA,CUN,SJU,YVR. I know that a couple MD-80's will be parked due to not being in the saver service layout and with fuel prices killing everyone, maybe they can work out a sweet deal with Boeing since they still had options on the 717 maybe some could be converted over to 737-700's  Smile Any thoughts?


The right decision at the wrong time, is still a wrong decision. "Hal Carr"
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMD90fan From Bahamas, joined Jul 2005, 2931 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4566 times:

Maybe MD-90?? plus 717 commonality and availability on the 2nd hand market Wink


http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
User currently offlineFlyboy80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1875 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4540 times:

i don't think those options are convertible, should they have any outstanding ones for 717 series aircraft...I don't think that Midwest is ready to give up on their MD80s yet either...they still work for the company...if any new aircraft were to join the fleet (family type) I would say second hand Airbus, or 733 series 737s...however, we can just dream here, a 738 with winglets would look stunning in Midwest colors! (what about EMB190s???)

User currently offlineN917ME From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 726 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 4431 times:

Reps from Boeing and Airbus were visiting YX last month. According to Tim they are evaluating a replacement for the gas guzzling MD80's, and they want an aircraft to have a longer range without so many weight restictions. My bet....A318/19. two class configuration. Aircraft used as Saver Service. From surveys, there is demand from travelers who will pay a premium for 2x2 seating on Saver Service.

User currently offlineKnope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2817 posts, RR: 30
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4389 times:

In today's press release I belive they described the two Signature M80 series aircraft they will be withdrawing from service and putting up for sale as "not sutable for Saver service". Does anyone know if something technical makes these M80's worse, operationally, than existing M80's already in Saver?

User currently offlineN917ME From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 726 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4378 times:

They are MD 81's. Heavier aircraft. If configured in Saver Service they would have weight restrictions constantly. Also they are gas guzzlers!

User currently offlineGeg2rap From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 847 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4299 times:

I asked a pilot on a MKE-MSP run this summer and he said second hand 757's were the most likely. He said it would bring the CASM closer to where the company wants it for the saver runs.
Hope MCI-MSP in on the next expansion list
Jeremy


User currently offlineCslusarc From Canada, joined May 2005, 829 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4199 times:

I wast thinking that the YX might replace early-80s vintage MD-81s/82s with newer MD-88s from DL.


--cslusarc from YWG
User currently offlineSkyexramper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4191 times:

I too heard the 757 rumor months ago, back in spring, but everyone knows the A320 will be in order since airbus tends to sell planes at cost. But then again everyone knows airbuses cost more to operate.  blockhead 

User currently offlineRJ777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1753 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4203 times:
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Quoting Geg2rap (Reply 6):
asked a pilot on a MKE-MSP run this summer and he said second hand 757's were the most likely. He said it would bring the CASM closer to where the company wants it for the saver runs.
Hope MCI-MSP in on the next expansion list
Jeremy

757s? Man, I never would have guessed that! But won't that mean more crew?


User currently offlineKnope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2817 posts, RR: 30
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4106 times:

If it means anything, yesterday I was sent an online survey by Midwest. After several flying demographic and preference questions, the meat of the survey had the participant choose their preference in several scenarios based on amenities, seating and price. For example

For a flight of two hours:

Option A
Midwest A319/A320 with 28 2x2 seating & 84 3X3 seating. You are in the 2x2 section
Complementary meal
No onboard enterainment
$75 fare difference over cheapest competitor

Option B
Midwest M80 with 2x3 seating
Complementary snack and buy onboard food
Rentable hand-held entertainment system
Same fare as cheapest competitor

Option C
Midwest 737 with 3x3 leather seating and extra leg room
Complementary snack and buy onboard food
At-seat internet available
$50 fare difference over cheapest competitor

Option D
Midwest 717 with 2x2 seating
Complementary snack and buy onboard food
No inflight entertainment
$75 fare difference over cheapest competitor

These are not the **exact* choices, but you get the idea. There were several differet scenarios with various amenities and price differences, and the participant is to pick what they would choose. (Other items like flight time were to be considered equal for this survey.)

Based on the items in the survey, I'd guess they are giving serious throught to the following aircraft / seating options:

Saver M80 2X3
Signature 717 2x2
Airbus with large F cabin (such as 28 + 84)
737 with a more traditional F cabin (such as 16 + 106)
737 in all-coach 3x3 leather seats and added leg room

Amenities:
None
Hand-held video
onboard internet

Again this is just a survey, but I think all of these are possibilities they are looking at.


User currently offlinePavlovsDog From Norway, joined Sep 2005, 656 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4045 times:

I think the proposed Bombardier C-Series would be ideal for Midwest to replace all it's aircraft.

It is supposed to feature 5 abreast seating, transcontinental range and low operating costs. With it's two sizes (110 and 135 seats) it could ideally replace the 717's, DC-9's and MD-80's and give them only one type to operate.


User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7482 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4034 times:

Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 11):
I think the proposed Bombardier C-Series would be ideal for Midwest to replace all it's aircraft.

It is supposed to feature 5 abreast seating, transcontinental range and low operating costs. With it's two sizes (110 and 135 seats) it could ideally replace the 717's, DC-9's and MD-80's and give them only one type to operate.

YX's DC-9s have been gone for a while; the 717s were what replaced them. Since the 717s are fairly new; the main focus in terms of aircraft replacement will be the older MD-80s.

Edited to add:

YX could just order the 73G to replace their MD-80s and just watch how many will speculate that their mainline fleet will then match FL's and hence restart some old rumors.  duck 

Side Note: a back issue article on Airliners magazine covering YX mentioned that there was a sizable ERJ-145 order for its Midwest Connect division. Any additional news or updates on that?

[Edited 2005-10-28 15:50:19]


"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineSideflare75 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 613 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3869 times:

Quoting N917ME (Reply 5):
They are MD 81's. Heavier aircraft. If configured in Saver Service they would have weight restrictions constantly. Also they are gas guzzlers!

They are all MD-81's. What makes these two different from all the rest???
(besides the 88's of course)

They sure don't guzzle any more gas than any of the rest.


User currently offlineJBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 2308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3845 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 12):
Side Note: a back issue article on Airliners magazine covering YX mentioned that there was a sizable ERJ-145 order for its Midwest Connect division. Any additional news or updates on that?

Skyway had an order for 20 ERJ-140 aircraft that was made some years ago, I believe around the same time as the 717 order.

Unfortunately, with 9/11 and the whole downturn of the industry, the company has never had the financing to pay for the order, and after being deferred a few times, I think the order has all but quietly slipped away into cancellation.

Instead, I believe we will be getting Delta's former 328JET fleet, that we had previously been in talks for to operate for them. Difference is now we'd be leasing them for YX use.

We need something because Beechcraft leases expire in a few years.



I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
User currently offlineHermansCVR580 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 504 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3648 times:

I'm still hoping for the 737NG. I think the the 737-700 series would be a perfect fit for them!!! I talked to a pilot not sure if it was a Air Wisconsin pilot but we have had a couple of Air Wisconsin former D-328's going from Canada to Myrtle Beach and he was saying that Skyway had looked at the prop 328's and said no and they have been looking at the former ACA 328JETs but there are some expensive upgrades that were needed on these jets so the question remains is Midwest going to spend the money to make the upgrades?? So until an announcment is made I'm going to keep hoping for the 737 Wink And when it comes to Skyway well anything is better than a B-1900 for all I care Skyway could get DC-3's  rotfl 


The right decision at the wrong time, is still a wrong decision. "Hal Carr"
User currently offlinePennPal From United States of America, joined May 2004, 170 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3621 times:

Why not ask Boeing to keep the 717 line open long enough to build the required amount of replacement aircraft that they need?? Since production hasn't stopped, why is this scenario not being considered???

User currently offlineHermansCVR580 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 504 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3603 times:

I think Midwest wants an aircraft with more seating capacity and range that the 717 does not offer plus better fuel efficency that the MD-80 don't have. The 717 was Midwest's DC-9 replacement, now it sounds like they are shopping for the MD-80 replacement. I agree the C series could make a good plane for them although I don't know much about it other than Bombardier will be making it and it looks like a A-318 from what I have heard  scratchchin 


The right decision at the wrong time, is still a wrong decision. "Hal Carr"
User currently offlineCslusarc From Canada, joined May 2005, 829 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3520 times:

If Skyways gets Delta's former 328JETs, where will Skyways deploy on behalf of Midwest?


--cslusarc from YWG
User currently offlineHermansCVR580 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 504 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3402 times:

I don't think the B-1900's will be all withdrawn from service since they have a couple of EAS routes I just don't think a 328JET is going to fly there? But then stranger things have happened. Maybe used DASH-8's? or SAAB 340's plenty of AA Eagles parked waiting for sombody to take them on. Speaking of used planes maybe Midwest can get a deal on either some of the former UsAirways 737's that have been parked or some of the Northwest A-319's that are going to be parked? But then would it be worth spending the money to bring the interiors up to Midwest standards because its all about  dollarsign   Wink


The right decision at the wrong time, is still a wrong decision. "Hal Carr"
User currently offlineSkyexramper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3389 times:

Quoting Cslusarc (Reply 18):
If Skyways gets Delta's former 328JETs, where will Skyways deploy on behalf of Midwest?

If that ever happens which I highly dought just for the fact that YX isn't in good shape. MCI would be my best guess as there have been talks about skyex out of MCI back when the delta deal was in limbo.


User currently offlineHermansCVR580 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 504 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3301 times:

The other thing to remember is gate space in MKE its already tight when you got MD-80's parked there throw in a 737 or Airbus and your going to need wings that fold up like on an aircraft carrier  Smile


The right decision at the wrong time, is still a wrong decision. "Hal Carr"
User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4264 posts, RR: 34
Reply 22, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3275 times:

Quoting PennPal (Reply 16):
Why not ask Boeing to keep the 717 line open long enough to build the required amount of replacement aircraft that they need?? Since production hasn't stopped, why is this scenario not being considered???

I think for the MD-80 role, a bigger and longer range aircraft is more suitable.
Midwest had its last chance to top up its 717 order at the beginning of this year. Building an aircraft is not just like making a table, they have to order engines, electronics, cockpits (made in Korea) etc. long in advance. Early this year they already had to decide to have the subcontractors stop building after 156 sets. If they feel sorry now, it needs at least an order of 50 to have Boeing decide to continue the production line. I believe the production building will be scrapped as soon as the last 717s are finished, probably they have other plans for the area already, calling these off might also be expensive.
I think 25 is already pretty much, as the DC-9s are already withdrawn, the last handful will already partially replace the MD-80s were possible. If they want more, I'm sure some second hand ones will be available.



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineKnope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2817 posts, RR: 30
Reply 23, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3224 times:

Obviously given the state of the airline's finances, any aircraft acquisition (lease or purchase) would have to come with ready and attractive financing. On the other hand, since most of the industry is in trouble or trying to become very lean to stay out of trouble, aircraft lessors and manufacturers have every incentive to get planes into service too. Even the ERJ 140 might come out of the ashes in Embarer is concerned enough about the drying up of the RJ market under 70 seats.

But there's a fundamental problem here beyond all this. Given what the industry looks like...including the cost of fuel...does it make sense to fly more FRJ's even if they are free? Maybe. If so, how cheap do they have to be to make it worthwhile? They are hardly the most economical RJ's. Does it make sense to add a whole new type of 40-44 seat RJ's even if they are free? The economics of the 140 are seemingly better, but there's a significant cost to adding a whole new aircraft type.


User currently offlineBaw2198 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 637 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3152 times:

Too bad the new Dornier company hasn't taken shape at all yet in europe, that would end the argument I think as to what YX would order. 428's and 528's would work out nicely, and would be cost effective since you wouldn't have to train a new pilot base for the type. Given the choice if dornier were still in business or starting up again, I think most of the passengers (myself included) would prefer the 328 series (or higher number if made) to that of the E140 anything. The embraer's are nice, but makes you feel like you're in a damn tube. At least the 328 feels open and airy.
Hey, why not a YX paintjob RJ85, NW might give those away  stirthepot 



"And remember, Keep your stick on the ice"--->Red Green
25 SkyexRamper : That's because Avcraft, the US company who bought the 328 line went bankrupt a while back because of their hope for the 328 revival.
26 MidnightMike : Airtran has shown how flying the 717 for the short range flights & using the 737NG's for the long range flights make for a very good combination of ai
27 Post contains images SkyexRamper : Thats probably because airtran has some people who know what they are doing. Tim and the rest of the YX goons are stuck in their early 90s mindset of
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