ACEregular From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2003, 674 posts, RR: 1 Posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3904 times:
I realise that most charter airlines now sell seats singularly on flights one way these days and these can be seen as low cost but I am wondering if the likes of U2 or FR might begin flights to the Canary Islands any time soon as Its a very popular year round destination. I have been on a few flights and all are just about full demonstrating the demand available. I also think being stuck with a 7 or 14 nt ticket is a bit restricting and maybe people would like to tailor make their holiday there.
Please dont shoot me down, I do also know that ZB fly there from LTN, MAN and LGW. LS have begun flying there from LBA and GSM do so from GLA. I just think there is scope from other underserved regional airports.
Orion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3899 times:
The Canary Islands are a little far for FR or EZY. I think while the no-frills service of 2-3 hours duration is acceptable, a flight of over 4 and a half hours requires additional considerations.
A more substantial meal service may need to be at least available for purchase and FR and EZY have limited galley facilities, unlike ZB (still can buy a hot meal on a flight to Canaries) .
Also the distance of such flights would affect the number of rotations that an LCC could make. A 4+ hour flight from MAN-TFS for example, would mean a combined total of 9 hours to which a turnaround time would have to be added.
Also Stelios states that the flight to ATH from LGW is the furthest he believes the LCC model can work. I tend to agree and think Jet 2 may struggle to fill their 757 on their run from LBA-TFS. It is a lengthy sector of which very few LCCs have gained any success. GO and MYT Lite operated a few seasonal flights with limited success and ZB was already established on flights to TFS and at least understands the differing catering needs of a longer flight by offering hot food for purchase.
Also the Canaries are served extensivley from regional airports like LBA, HUY, NCL, LPL etc with seat only available options in most instances. I think the LCCs would struggle to compete on price and on service on these longer sectors.
TriStar500 From Germany, joined Nov 1999, 4690 posts, RR: 45 Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3808 times:
Quoting TS-IOR (Reply 3): Take a 1 Eur. Ryanair flight to Germany and then to the Canaries starting 29 Eur.
You might find it a little more difficult to implement this. Those 29 Euro flights to the Canaries are really hard to come by, and HF and DE, which offer such tickets, fly from proper airports unlike the sheds in the middle of nowhere FR is taking you to.
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
Bullpitt From Spain, joined Mar 2004, 871 posts, RR: 9 Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3785 times:
I agree with TriStar500. Also to those 1 eur and 29 eur flights you have to add the taxes and the extras cost of getting from one airport to the other, then you have to have a good 2 to 3 hour margin on your connection or more if your connecting at different airports. So the trip can be a very long trip and the savings minimal as you can fly for a very good price using BA/IB or others direct or via other European capitals with connected tkts which make things easier.
These are my principles but if you don't like them I have others
BCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 18 Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3780 times:
Go, originally the LCC of BA but then went through a management buy out before being taken over by U2, did fly STN-TFS for one season and the fares were reasonable - you could often get to TFS for under £50 inclusive of all taxes. However, the route was dropped due to poor loads after only one season.
Whilst there was certainly a demand to LCC to the Canaries, Go's STN/TFS service was not a success for three simple reasons - first, their flight departed in the evening from STN and arrived at TFS just after midnight, returning in the early hours of the morning. Secondly, passengers did then expect some frills on flights lasting +4 hours. Thirdly, in those days there was plenty of availability to TFS on charter flights.
Times have changed, and passengers are becoming accustomed to no frills. 5 years ago, passengers could accept no frills for flights up to 2 hours. 3 years ago this crept up to 3 hours, and now I am sure if the fare was right, passengers would do without the frills for 4-5 hours. Therefore, I think that we shall soon see LCCs operating to the Canaries and possibly also IST. I think that FR have already been in discussions with TFN regarding the possibility of their starting services next summer.
The LCCs may, however, left it too late. Check on the BA website and you will find some damn good deals to the Canaries. A scheduled BA flight (albeit franchised operated by GB Airways) is often a fraction of the fares on the likes of First Choice, Thomson, Monarch and My Travel. And the BA fare includes meals, drinks, assigned seating, all of which are extras on the charter carriers.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
TriStar500 From Germany, joined Nov 1999, 4690 posts, RR: 45 Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3772 times:
Quoting BCAL (Reply 8): Check on the BA website and you will find some damn good deals to the Canaries. A scheduled BA flight (albeit franchised operated by GB Airways) is often a fraction of the fares on the likes of First Choice, Thomson, Monarch and My Travel. And the BA fare includes meals, drinks, assigned seating, all of which are extras on the charter carriers.
However, BA is not making a profit from such bargain basement fares. There might be a few seats on each flight as an incentive, but the average yield will have to be higher than on a "charter" or "low cost" flight, if BA wants to make money from it.
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
CRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2133 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3736 times:
Quoting Orion737 (Reply 1): A more substantial meal service may need to be at least available for purchase and FR and EZY have limited galley facilities,
I flew FR for the first time two weeks ago and noticed that their 738s have the "full galley complement" that most other airlines have on their 738s... meaning that FR has lots of room for food, drinks, hot-ovens and the rest.
The Canary Islands have LCC service from Sterling and SK flying non-stop from Scandinavia several times a week. Flights are about 5,5 hrs and limited selections of food are offered for sale, mostly cold dishes and the odd hot burrito. Seat pitches are 30-31" on those carriers. The flights are popular as many Scandinavians own houses down there, and they seem happy with what NB and SK offer on those flights.
I personally like the charter trips to the Canary Islands, gives me such a holiday feel...
Alcregular From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3716 times:
LCC to canaries could work. Having worked in a travel agents previously, their was quite a demand for the canaries in the winter, with not enough flights. NCL and MME flights have been reduced even though the demand is there. I'm not sure about the summer though, as there are plenty of places to go with good weather.
7LBAC111 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 2566 posts, RR: 42 Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3696 times:
Quoting Orion737 (Reply 1): A more substantial meal service may need to be at least available for purchase and FR and EZY have limited galley facilities, unlike ZB (still can buy a hot meal on a flight to Canaries) .
Im in agreement with BCAL here. I don't think the majority are as obsessed with onboard catering as you are.
Quoting Orion737 (Reply 1): Also Stelios states that the flight to ATH from LGW is the furthest he believes the LCC model can work. I tend to agree and think Jet 2 may struggle to fill their 757 on their run from LBA-TFS
I'm sure he'll be relieved!
Quoting BCAL (Reply 8): Times have changed, and passengers are becoming accustomed to no frills. 5 years ago, passengers could accept no frills for flights up to 2 hours. 3 years ago this crept up to 3 hours, and now I am sure if the fare was right, passengers would do without the frills for 4-5 hours. Therefore, I think that we shall soon see LCCs operating to the Canaries and possibly also IST.
It's an untapped LCC market, and Jet2 are the first carrier to really have a shot at it. I think they'll succeed, though I'd think MAN offers a better catchment to LBA. Are LS 757 solely being used on this route? QAre any other routes in the pipeline for this type?
Quoting BCAL (Reply 8): I think that FR have already been in discussions with TFN regarding the possibility of their starting services next summer.
ACEregular From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2003, 674 posts, RR: 1 Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3688 times:
I have heard rumours of a Spanish base for U2 but not for another year or so at least. If they did open a Spanish base I am sure they would sell seats to the Canaries as IB, AEA and JK have the monopoly stranglehold on the routes like BA, BD and JE had before low cost changed the face of UK domestic flying in the UK. That however would mean making connections if you wished to travel to the Canaries from the UK. I have just flown BA there at a cost of 99.00 return from LGW which is a bargain. I never would have thought I could get a cheap fare with them but First Choice wanted 408.00 for a 7nt flight only - thats disgusting! I reckon there is more than enough demand for the low costs to shake up the likes of BY and TCX on theses routes, what they do is very underhand, selling empty seats that have not been allocated to a package holiday at extotionate prices.
Orion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3671 times:
I still believe that most UK passengers holidaying in the Canary Islands are doing so on a package holiday. Sure there are some Brits with property in the Canaires, particularly Tenerife and Lanzarote but this isnt on the scale of the villa/apartment ownership in the Costa Del Sol, Costa Blanca and Costa Almeria. Destinations like Malaga, Alicante and Murcia work well for LCCs because of the enourmous number of brits with property on the Spanish Mainland coasts.
The Balearic and Canary Islands have much less demand for seat only than Mainland Spain.
I do think that the extra travelling time to reach the Canary Islands would bring operational constraints for the LCCs, the time it takes to reach these destinations would mean the number of daily flights achieved by the aircraft would be considerable reduced. Therefore reducing revenue!!
I also believe that as the canary Islands are much further away than mainland Spain, the short stay/short break market is much reduced and most passengers there in winter holiday for a minimum of 7 nights and the ones who dont are already well catered for on exisiting services of GB Airways and ZB
ACEregular From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2003, 674 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3652 times:
ITs rubbish to say the majority of brits going there are on pacjkage holidays, they in fact are in decline. I once worked for a tour operator in the canaries and can tell you that its a very changed market place now. the dawning of independant bookings via the web is on the up. the like sof Thomson are cutting back on Reps in resort as guests just dont want that service anymore. I myself booked flight and car and apartment seperately online and saved a tidy sum in doing so. Speaking to people in resort a lot are doing similar. I would have been happy going for 5 days, I do not think the 4 hour flight would put me off, in the winter thats only a short flight for more or less good weather which is not always the case on the mainland.
Orion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3642 times:
But of course, however, I still believe that 7 or 14 even 21 nights is the prefered duration for a holiday in the Canaries.
People go over to visit their villa owning relatives on the Costa Blanca and stay for a weekend but the Canaries are a 4+ hour flight and from Northern England and Scotland its close on 5 hours! a bit far for a 2 0r 3 or even 4 night stay.
The El Golfo area of Tenerife South has quite a few timeshare properties and private apartment owners and similar exist in Lanzarote but they are adequatley catered for at the moment. I dont think an LCC would find it easy to fill multiple weekly departures to the Canaries and as I say a rotation to TFS there and back would be over 9 hours from 'up North' and impacting the number of flights able to be carried out by an aircraft.
LCCs work with short routes like LBA-EDI and some longer routes like EMA-ALC but TFS would almost mean that the aircraft operating that route would barely be able to fit in other flights that day. This means fares to TFS would have to be much higher and probably would be more expensive than existing GB Airways flights!!
AirEuropeUK733 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 973 posts, RR: 11 Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3608 times:
Quoting Orion737 (Reply 19): but TFS would almost mean that the aircraft operating that route would barely be able to fit in other flights that day.
Quoting N1120A (Reply 6): Funny, since LCCs in the US fly nearly twice that far in the US all the time.
They appear to be able to manage it in the States. I know that alot of costs go into a flight but the longer the plane is in the air the less landing fees it would incur. Wouldn't that help with the cost of these longer flights?
BCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 18 Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3594 times:
7LBAC111 - Good to see that great minds think alike
However, just one small correction
Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 14): Jet2 are the first carrier to really have a shot at it.
GO tried it several years back - see my Reply 8 above.
Quoting Orion737 (Reply 16): I still believe that most UK passengers holidaying in the Canary Islands are doing so on a package holiday. Sure there are some Brits with property in the Canaires
Many British people have holiday homes and timeshares in the Canaries. In fact I remember reading that the Canaries are only behind mainland Spain and the Balearics in the top ten destinations for holiday homes. The fact that the Canaries are all-year resorts give them an advantage over mainland Spain and the Balearics. Seats-only sales are beginning to overtake inclusive-tour passengers on the charters, so I think that the scales of package and independent tourists in the Canaries are now being tipped.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
Orion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3578 times:
I am sure that airlines like EasyJet and Ryanair are aware of the Canasry Islands and then popularity with UK holidaymakers, particularly during winter. Yet they have yet to operate any flights there at all!
I think there must be a few good reasons that is the case, some of which I outlined in my earlier posts.
Go only briefly operated TFS and found it a fairly tough nut to crack. I am sure if FR or EZY were interested in the Canaries they would have offered services there a long time ago!
25 Diesel1: This is taking a static, somewhat blinkered or narrowminded viewpoint on the market - the (pioneering) LCCs have developed new market sectors with ne
26 Orion737: I do think flights from say MME to TFS or LPL-ACE are almost entirely UK originating. I think the market for the host population visitng small provinc
27 AIHTOURS: Thomsonfly are offering low-cost services to Gran Canaria and Tenerife from Doncaster Sheffield Airport this winter. Thomsonfly also celebrate 6 month
28 7LBAC111: Of course, but this can be a stimulated market. Not all pax do 2 sector holidays, many do little tours, so I don;t know, HHN-TFN-STN-HHN as an exampl
29 7LBAC111: You may want to back that up! Stats etc? I disagree. The short break market to The US east coast is huge. And they are 6-8 hour flights. So how come
30 Diesel1: Of course they are - thats the way they're sold. Considering your comments around these two airports, it's important not to be blinkered in your way
31 Planesarecool: Not me. In fact a lot of people i know go to places such as the Canaries for 10 or 11 nights. 7 nights for me is too short, and 14 is too long. I'd c
32 Orion737: Plenty of 10 and 11 night durations available with most tour operators and charter airlines. While 21 days may not suit you or I, major tour ops do a
33 HT: I think those routes mentioned are doing okay due to the fact that they have O&D on both sides of the rotation, whereas UK-Canaries would primarily c
34 Orion737: Very good point HT and thank you for backing up my viewpoint. Eastern Europeans are increasingly coming to work and live in Northern England so these
35 Richardw: LGW-FNC is a bit shorter, perhaps that might be slightly more viable. I'm slightly surprised that GT started LGW-SSH, I think they are hoping for a go
36 Orion737: FNC is not no-frills territory. Madeira is very much for the older more discerning holidaymaker. It isnt a cheap and cheerful, pile it high and sell i
37 Jmc757: MyTravelLite's TFS services from BXH were actually very succesful, good load factors. The route being dropped was more the fact of MyTravel not reall
38 7LBAC111: Of course, but not entirely! The assumption being put forward is that the traffic will be all one way and this simply isn;t going to be the case. Yes
39 Richardw: Older more discerning holidaymakers do fly no frills airlines, how do you think they get to Portofino and Reid's Palace. FR advertises in Newspapers t
40 Orion737: Far from it 'would madame care for a cucumber sandwich and a pot of Earl Gray on the terrace at Reids?' I dont think she would care to get there on Ry
41 BCAL: I guess that you have not been to Gran Canaria recently and seen all the 5-star hotels opening or being built. I think that over the past 18 months,
42 7LBAC111: Then Orion, you are more narrowminded than I think any of us ever imagined!
43 Orion737: Not at all, just pointing out that the Madeira market is different to say, Tenerife. I worked for a company called Martyn Holidays in the early 90s wh
44 Capital146: The Canaries are not really served extensively from LBA, just a skeleton charter service until now when compared to other regional airports. Quite a
45 ACEregular: Its good to see a lot of people do share my view that the LCC are missing out on a good market, I really do hope we get some carriers starting flights
46 Greenjet: Most people don't care about being able to buy a hot meal on a 4 hour flight. The main concerns are more likely to be price, punctuality and safety.
47 Orion737: A flight from Northerly UK airports to the Canary Islands run in at close to 5 hours! Thats a medium haul flight!
48 ACEregular: Orion, I flew with Britannia to Tenerife recently on a 4hr 10 minute flight. the flight was on a 757-200 with 41 seat rows, I was seated at row 25 and
49 Horus: Egypt is extremely popular with holidaymakers, especially the Red Sea resorts, which have seen phenomenal growth in the past 2 years. I think it made
50 ACEregular: I flew from TFN - LGW on G-TTOE last week, how very funny - for me anyway[Edited 2005-10-30 23:01:15]
51 Pe@rson: IF the Canary Islands are to be served from, say, the UK by no-frills airlines, then I don't see why they can't fly overnight, thereby further increas
52 Pe@rson: 0055 - 0505; 0530 - 0930... Not the best times, perhaps, but I can't imagine half a day being put aside for flights from the UK to the C.I. There seem
53 Horus: How confortable are there seats in both cabins? Is C class worth the extra money? I will be flying on the SSH service this December. Horus p.s. I'm a
54 TS-IOR: There is even late arrivals to TFS/TFN. The Germany-Baleares and Germany-Canaries corridors are working round the clock. When means of transportation
55 AirEuropeUK733: Not so! I went to Hong Kong for a 4 night break - that's 12½ hours there and 13 back!! AE733
56 Richardw: U2 could perhaps do a 3 times per week LGW-FNC service LGW-FNC 16:00 dep 19:30 arr FNC-LGW 20:00 dep 23:30 arr
57 7LBAC111: Instead of picking at small things like that Orion, why don;t you do what every other post in this thread has asked you too, and answer the questions