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Boeing To Sell Up To 965 Jets In 05  
User currently offlineN1786b From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 559 posts, RR: 17
Posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 8940 times:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...pace/2002588498_boeingsales28.html

Highlights:

- Boeing's proposal to Qantas includes:
- 45 787s
- 20 747ADVs
- 20 777-300ERs
- 5 777-200LRs

- Boeing's proposal to SIA:
- 10 777-200LRs
- 20 787s
- 13 747ADVs and ADVFs
- 20-30 "standard 777s"

Other Orders:

- likely to be firmed up by Dec. 31:
- 20 for Air India
- 14 for Air Canada
- 36 for several Chinese airlines (first time I've heard about this)

- Unannounced 787 prospects:
- Turkish Airlines 20 (first time I've heard about this)
- Aeroflot 15 (decision announced for Nov. 3rd)
- GECAS 15 (first time I've heard about this)
- RBS Aviation 10 (first time I've heard about this)

- 777 proposals on the table:
- 50 777-200ERs to Emirates (against the A359 here and no mention of the 787-10X)
- up to 26 to Cathay Pacific

Another interesting note is that AB is selling the A350 for $85 million, just over half the list price.

- N1786B

85 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 47
Reply 1, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 8907 times:

Quite impressive, but considering they have launched a new plane in the most popular medium size long haul category, a strong performance was expected.
They are now filling their order book for the next few years at once: Boeing expected some of these orders already last year (200+ 787s by year's end, remember?) but they fall through only now and combine them with orders of this year, as well as maybe some of next year already...

Anybody care to discuss some of the planes on the list??
I mean: the 747-400ADV to SIA for instance, that alone could make a good discussion....


User currently offlineAviation From Australia, joined Dec 2004, 1143 posts, RR: 21
Reply 2, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 8891 times:

Yay!

Go Boeing!
Good to see the old girl going strong!

Cheers,



Signed, Aaron Nicoli - Trans World Airlines Collector
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 8862 times:

50 B777-200ERs to EK is dubious. They are more likely to twist Boeing's arm into selling them the B787-10.

Also, I don't see either QF or SQ orders being firm before the end of the year, just announced intentions. They will count as 2006 orders.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 8839 times:



Boeing thinks Airbus could sell 400 aircraft in the next 2 months.

Lets not ignore the period in which the aircraft will be delivered. Having too many orders for delivery years down the road won't help cash flow / credibility of the order portfolio in the next 5 years.

Also sales margins/discounts & aircraft sizes (TO) are important IMO.

Anyone the value of the backlogs of Airbus & Boeing compared to just the number of airframes? (equalizing A380s with B737s isn't everything..)


User currently offlineN1786b From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 559 posts, RR: 17
Reply 5, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 8791 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 4):
Boeing thinks Airbus could sell 400 aircraft in the next 2 months.

Not clear if that accounts for the orders listed here that Boeing might lose. They are already touting 200 - 210 A350s and they've got 43 Indian A320s yet to be officially booked plus handfulls of smaller orders too - Aeroflot comes to mind.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 4):
Also sales margins/discounts & aircraft sizes (TO) are important IMO.

Yep, you failed to mention the internal Boeing document saying AB is selling the A350 for $85m. No wonder they need launch aid to keep from "destroying profitability" (their words - not mine!!)  duck 

- N1786B


User currently offlineShenzhen From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 1710 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 8786 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 4):
Boeing thinks Airbus could sell 400 aircraft in the next 2 months.

From the related article on this thread...

Quote
According to the Boeing insider, as of the beginning of this month Boeing's forecast for Airbus showed solid prospects of 705 orders and 178 more possible — giving a potential year-end order total of 883.

To get there, Airbus may aggressively compete on price.

Unquote

Cheers


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 8757 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 4):
Lets not ignore the period in which the aircraft will be delivered. Having too many orders for delivery years down the road won't help cash flow / credibility of the order portfolio in the next 5 years.

It's early and I'm not thinking too clearly. Could you please elaborate on that? Thanks.

(OT, how do you guys cut and paste these charts into your posts. I can't get it to work. If I want to paste a photo from an article, all I get is the link to the entire article).



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 8753 times:

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 6):
To get there, Airbus may aggressively compete on price.

What do we think the much heralded "aggressive" sales campaign & consequent sales by Boeing of the last 10 months comes down to?

From the EADS site:

..the Boeing 787. This latter has become the world’s most subsidised airliner ever. Boeing has amassed more than US$ 5 billion in government subsidies to pay for its development and production, through US and foreign government R&D funds, tax relief schemes and launch aid. New subsidies are being added every day. But for these subsidies, Boeing could not have launched the 787, which is currently being dumped on the market at unprecedented low prices.


 laughing  I was surprised to read this .. EADS PR apparently was real pissed when they released this  laughing 

Anyway we are in for an exiting two months, SQ, Qantas and CX among the ones out for a big order.


User currently offlineJetMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 8717 times:

Interesting article...but:

In the contest of the twin-engine 777s against the four-engine and therefore gas-guzzling A340s, the high price of fuel might tilt the balance Boeing's way.

"Gas-guzzling" is clearly a ridiculous term. The A346 is definitely less fuel efficient than its rival, but it doesn't mean it wastes fuel as a true "guzzler".


An internal Boeing document includes a report from the sales field that Airbus in June was offering the A350 at only $85 million, just over half the list price.

Hm, an internal Boeing document...

Quoting N1786b (Thread starter):
Another interesting note is that AB is selling the A350 for $85 million, just over half the list price.

IS selling? That's a Boeing claim, so we should be careful in drawing fast conclusions.

Quoting N1786b (Reply 4):
No wonder they need launch aid to keep from "destroying profitability" (their words - not mine!!)

You speak as if you knew for sure...


Regards,
JM

[Edited 2005-10-28 12:43:07]

User currently offlineShenzhen From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 1710 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 8711 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 8):
From the EADS site:

..the Boeing 787. This latter has become the world’s most subsidized airliner ever. Boeing has amassed more than US$ 5 billion in government subsidies to pay for its development and production, through US and foreign government R&D funds, tax relief schemes and launch aid. New subsidies are being added every day. But for these subsidies, Boeing could not have launched the 787, which is currently being dumped on the market at unprecedented low prices.


I was surprised to read this .. EADS PR apparently was real pissed when they released this

Anyway we are in for an exiting two months, SQ, Qantas and CX among the ones out for a big order.

I guess the old saying "if you can't beat them, join them" fits nicely here. If you can't do anything about your competitors advantage via funding and taxes, do your best to join the party.......

After all, Leahy did say all he would need to do is drop the price on his A330 because there wasn't any development cost to recoup  Smile

Cheers

[Edited 2005-10-28 12:56:34]

User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2815 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 8701 times:

15 772LRs eh? So, combined with AI, what does that bring the order book to?

And the AC order is back?

50 772ERs for EK? Hmm.

And over 30 proposals for the 747ADV. I thought QF wasn't a taker for the 747ADV.


User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 47
Reply 12, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 8685 times:

Quoting N1786b (Reply 5):
You failed to mention the internal Boeing document saying A. is selling the A350 for $85m.

So that's roughly a 45% discount then...

Hmmm, just for our own interest, how much do you think Boeing gives as discount on its list prices? 10? 20? Maybe 30 is it is a very big contract???

Airlines and manufacturers often are extremely discrete about this issue, except when you sell to a big-mouth like MOL from Ryanair! He waved papers showing he got his 737s at half price! That's right: around 50% off!

I'd say a 45% discount is on the high end, but certainly not exaggerated.
It is what customers want off the price and seeing the successful latest sales campaign from Boeing, is more than likely also what they've got. Anyway, we should find out over the coming years when we see just how much/few profit B. is reporting on their sales. It could turn out to be a very big disappointment, mind you...


User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4700 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 8586 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

85million for a A350, whats the big deal, CI got its A333s for 80 and NW for even less. Same old SOP for Airbus. Did anyone expect them to sell at list price?????

User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 8573 times:

Quote:
While the existing 777-200LR could fly from London to Sydney nonstop, strong headwinds on the reverse path demand a refueling stop. Boeing is offering Qantas a modified version of the jet with six auxiliary tanks and fewer seats that could make the journey nonstop in both directions.



NO URLS in signature
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 15, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 8535 times:

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 12):


Airlines and manufacturers often are extremely discrete about this issue, except when you sell to a big-mouth like MOL from Ryanair! He waved papers showing he got his 737s at half price! That's right: around 50% off!

I know exactly what UA paid for their A320s and all I'll say is that I was surprised that the discount was as steep as it was.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 8453 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 4):
Lets not ignore the period in which the aircraft will be delivered. Having too many orders for delivery years down the road won't help cash flow / credibility of the order portfolio in the next 5 years.

Keesje, now that I've had a couple of cups of coffee, I'm still baffled by this statement. Perhaps it's just me...could you explain this? Is there such a thing as having "too many orders"? Nice problem to have!  Smile



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 17, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 8423 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 16):
Keesje, now that I've had a couple of cups of coffee, I'm still baffled by this statement. Perhaps it's just me...could you explain this? Is there such a thing as having "too many orders"?

Perhaps I didn't read it correctly, but I think what Keesje meant is that if Boeing were to have too many orders, it would be a problem for Keesje.


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 8391 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 16):
Keesje, now that I've had a couple of cups of coffee, I'm still baffled by this statement. Perhaps it's just me...could you explain this? Is there such a thing as having "too many orders"? Nice problem to have!

I actually think Keesje is not a human but a random word generating software application.


User currently offlineClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4627 posts, RR: 23
Reply 19, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 8363 times:

Quoting N79969 (Reply 18):
I actually think Keesje is not a human but a random word generating software application.

LOL! ... but moving on...

Quoting N1786b (Thread starter):
- Boeing's proposal to Qantas includes:
- 45 787s
- 20 747ADVs
- 20 777-300ERs
- 5 777-200LRs

This is most interesting.

As it is also said that QF will split the order between two manufacturers, I would hazard a guess and say that the 20 747ADV will end up being exercised A380 options, plus maybe some more firm A380s. At the same time, they may get a good deal as launch customer for the new variant, and go with the 747s.

I think the 787 is a given purchase, as are the 777s.

Would love to see the Airbus proposal that is on the table in contrast.

Trent.



I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 8336 times:

I wonder if the article meant 50 777-300ER for Emirates and not -200ER.

User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 8309 times:

Quoting N79969 (Reply 20):
I wonder if the article meant 50 777-300ER for Emirates and not -200ER.

What about the 787-10?



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 8278 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 16):
Keesje, now that I've had a couple of cups of coffee

An OEM would perhaps rather have a 10 aircraft order from China Southern for delivery within 3 years then a (1996 coverted) Garuda order for 10 aircraft for delivery from 2011 (or a little later). Better a Cathay order then one from Primaris, better an Emirates order for 8 then an Ethiopian for 10, agree?

So focussing on the total orders you got this year can be a lot more interesting then on how many aircraft actually roll of the the line in the next three years, agree?


User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4118 posts, RR: 90
Reply 23, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 8219 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
COMMUNITY MANAGER

Quoting N1786b (Thread starter):
- likely to be firmed up by Dec. 31:
- 20 for Air India

I assume this will include AI "firming" their 15 777s and 18 738s too. Just needs to pass one more approval proceedure and they can sign

Quoting N1786b (Thread starter):
- 14 for Air Canada

Mr Bair has said they've been working with AC to meet their needs if AC can resolve the pilot issue. I assume they'll also get the 777s approved if the 787 order can be firmed too, right?

Quoting N1786b (Thread starter):
- 36 for several Chinese airlines (first time I've heard about this)

Of the 60 China have ordered this year only 24 are listed on Boeing's site. These are the other 36 but given the politic's of Chinese orders we'll just have to wait for them to be listed. These consist of
- 15 for China Eastern
- 10 for China Southern
- 8 for Hainan
- 3 for Xiamen
Each of those carriers has confirmed that they've signed but for some reason they're not yet listed

Quoting N1786b (Thread starter):
- Unannounced 787 prospects:
- Turkish Airlines 20 (first time I've heard about this)
- Aeroflot 15 (decision announced for Nov. 3rd)
- GECAS 15 (first time I've heard about this)
- RBS Aviation 10 (first time I've heard about this)

GECAS is no surprise as it was only a matter of time before they committed, the more so now that ILFC have seemingly signed for 20 + 4. As for TK & SU I'd have to say that the A350 is in with an even chance on either of those orders. Apparently we'll see what SU have decided on next week so not long to wait. As for RBS Aviation that's very interesting. They've ordered 40 narrow bodies evenly between Airbus and Boeing this year. Perhaps they are the undisclosed customer for 10 A350 commitments that Airbus have and they can disclose this when the 787 order is finalised, if they do order, just a thought.

Quoting N1786b (Thread starter):
- 777 proposals on the table:
- 50 777-200ERs to Emirates (against the A359 here and no mention of the 787-10X)
- up to 26 to Cathay Pacific

Again, Airbus is in with an even chance in both these RFPs. I'm surprised that they mention 50 772ERs for EK. IIRC they were more interested in 772LR/F and further 773ERs. IMO CX could go either way and it's interesting the 747Adv is not mentioned when CX is spoken of.

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 1):
They are now filling their order book for the next few years at once

Actually, they've filled the first 2 years production already. They're now selling the following years production.

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 1):
Boeing expected some of these orders already last year (200+ 787s by year's end, remember?)

Yes and by Boeing's own admission airlines held off from ordering in the hope of better pricing so they'd meet their target. But Boeing didn't yield on price to meet the sales target, remember?

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 1):
Anybody care to discuss some of the planes on the list??
I mean: the 747-400ADV to SIA for instance, that alone could make a good discussion....

It already has made for good discussion in many previous threads. Of more interest is that QF is considering 20 747 Adv. For an airplane that many have written off to have both SQ & QF evaluating orders for up to 33 frames is quite an achievement. To me though the best thing about this is that the market segment for the 747 through to the A380 is about to receive 2 major boosts irrespective of which manufacturer is chosen.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 4):
Lets not ignore the period in which the aircraft will be delivered. Having too many orders for delivery years down the road won't help cash flow / credibility of the order portfolio in the next 5 years.

Respectfully, you've got that wrong. Why,? Because I'm not sure your quote actually makes sense.

Boeing are increasing production annually to meet demand and though Airbus still leads in deliveries, 2006 and 2007 should almost see parity in deliveries between the two companies.

Interesting article and it'll be intersting times going into year end

Regards, PanAm_DC10



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 24, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 8193 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 22):
So focussing on the total orders you got this year can be a lot more interesting then on how many aircraft actually roll of the the line in the next three years, agree?

OK, so you are saying that rather than focusing solely on the quantity of the orders, one needs to keep in mind the *quality* of the orders? I can't argue against that in a general sense. However, ALL aircraft orders are subject to many forces beyond the control of the OEM's and the airlines (e.g., SARS, 9-11, market crashes, conflict, etc.). Better the "bird in hand", eh?

Also, large numbers create large "market buzz". Look at the splash Mr. Leahy was able to make at the Paris Airshow with the 100 Indigo order!
Regards,
L



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
25 ClassicLover : I can see your logic - Emirates is a bigger airline, hence more opportunity for follow on orders and so on and so forth. However, I would disagree wi
26 Keesje : True, I guess these (opportunistic) orders are seen as less impressive (by the market analists, stockholders etc) as orders from the established bigg
27 United Airline : I suppose CX and BA and JAL will eventually order the B 747 Advanced. Also LH, NW and UA etc etc.
28 Sabenapilot : There's one word missing there.. YET... It's obvious B has changed its mind since this year, hence the claims from Airbus and -more importantly- the
29 Slarty : Really? I would have thought the 15% or so depreciation of the $US against the Euro and the apparent performance differentials of the 77X vs. A34X we
30 Sabenapilot : may I suggest you read the second paragraph too, before jumping to conclusions?
31 Slarty : Your second paragraph was full of hooey, as marketing & sales are different ... marketing is not "pricing". If you don't think so ask a VP of Marketi
32 Elvis777 : Hello sabena, I have a question concerbing your last post "Now, beyond doubt Airbus can offer its customers very big discounts while at the same time
33 PHXinterrupted : Why don't you do that, Keesje. Look at the profit margin on these sales and tell us who's giving planes away. Need an A350 for only $85 million?
34 Thorben : First, no second time today that I agree with you. That term "four-engine and therefore gas-guzzling" is so dumb that discussing this article is just
35 Lemurs : Can I point out that dismissing the entire article because of one exageration is just as dumb as the exageration itself? Because it is.
36 Post contains images BlueSky1976 : If Boeing will not offer 787-10 to EK, they might as well say goodbye to them as a 777-200ER customer. Say hello to Emirates A350
37 JetMaster : Do you believe anything Boeing says about Airbus? Show me a neutral source and we may talk again. Regards, JM
38 Zvezda : I agree. I think the idea of EK ordering another 50 B777-200ERs is far-fetched. Given Clark's public statements, it appears his first choice is the B
39 Lemurs : If it's an internal document that was not meant to be shared with the public, that increases it's believability quite a bit. Boeing gets no benefit t
40 F4N : Sabenapilot: An interesting although ludicrous comment. Has it occurred to you that most businesses have a "marketing" department for a reason? Hint:
41 JetMaster : Well, could all be part of PR. "Internal document" sounds just better, doesn't it? Isn't that a contradiction to what you just said? You say it would
42 Luisca : Im getting a headache triying to understand what you say. It is an internal memo, probably private, that leaked. not a Internal PR. You and Keesje sh
43 Ken777 : That 16% may grow as the VPs top aide has now been indicted and the President's top aid is still at risk. That can sink the Dollar - yet again. The 7
44 Post contains links and images JetMaster : Hm, reading again tomorrow may help... Either you are kidding or you have no clue what you're talking about. Hint: December Might Be A Big Month For
45 Lemurs : Are you intentionally being obtuse? My point is that if the document is internal, it was meant to be accurate, or else Boeing would get no benefit fr
46 JetMaster : Just see me IM. Point taken. Well, I just say it could be part of PR, in the sense of giving some news to the press and calling it "internal" to make
47 N60659 : I agree that the number is rather high, but I wouldn't completely rule the 772ER out. Why? I think quite a bit hinges on EIS of both the 787 (-9, -10
48 Astuteman : If that was their goal, they've failed miserably. 3% - 7% margin in the last 4 years is NOT a decent profit margin. In fact, up until last year at le
49 Mham001 : Ridiculous. There are much more important issues affecting currency values than some aid indicted for perjury.
50 N79969 : It truly is common knowledge that the only pricey aspect about Airbus are the spare parts. Their aircraft are consistently cheaper than Boeing at acq
51 Post contains images Sabenapilot : Thanks for the excellent post, Astutemen! No need for me to answer further to the critics on my latest post. Didn't know A and B were both making the
52 N79969 : But that would be false. One component of the Airbus value proposition is the lower up-front capital expenditure to acquire the aircraft. On the othe
53 Astuteman : And to be fair to Boeing, is doing all the right things about it. In fact, in the 787, they might just "out-Airbus" Airbus. It'll take about 3-4 year
54 F4N : Sabenapilot: And the recent articles quoting Mr. Humbert about increasing the amount of outsourcing Airbus intends to do means what? regards, F4N
55 Sabenapilot : it means A shares my analysis and is not going to let the production advantages it now holds over B slip through it fingers... B increases its outsou
56 Lumberton : Yes, and.... IMO, F4N did a nice job in reply #40. I've always wondered about that and I suspect you've hit this one out of the park. The orders from
57 Zvezda : Oops! The last sentence was meant to read: Boeing will be lucky to get another 50 B777-200ER orders across all airlines, ever.
58 Lumberton : I agree. I've got to repeat myself...what about the 787-10? We saw that nice picture from the Flight International article. Could be a real game chan
59 Keesje : I think airline household brands: LH, AF, BA, KL, SAS, Iberia, UA, DL, AA, SQ, Qantas, CX, MH, AC, EK are still "missing in action" on the 787 order
60 Keesje : No sure. The ER seems lighter & less expensive the LR. If the ULR range is not needed (in 95% of the cases?) it seems to make no sense to buy a heavi
61 Lumberton : This whole post is one of the best example of "flame bait" I've seen in a long time. Congratulations!
62 ER757 : The 747ADV for SQ and QF are surprising, although the freighter version for SQ would seem to be a sure thing if the model is launched. That's a lot of
63 Sq212 : Agree. The head of EK was quoted as saying A350 will eat 772 alive. I take it as indication that he is very much in favor of A350. I don't think 787-
64 PanAm_DC10 : Respectfully, there is not a word missing, neither then nor now. My reference was specifically to your claim that Boeing missed the 200 by end of 200
65 Slarty : What? For all of those that pointed out to you that you didn't understand the roles of marketing vs. sales? LOL Now you are making some sense ...
66 Bohlman : Wow. So much to address, I can't even begin... well, I'll try: This is an easy one: before you start insulting anybody who happens to like Boeing, loo
67 Dhefty : Keesje, I'm sorry I took so long to read your reply #4, but I thank you for the chart and for your observations. For the most part I agree with you.
68 Astuteman : In fact I'll agree completely with you on that. In fact for B to deliver 1/2 the number of planes in 2003 that it did in 2000, and make any profit at
69 JetMaster : Quite an adventurous statement. Can you prove your odd claims somehow? Calling those very respected papers generally biased towards Airbus is totally
70 Bohlman : I think both are equaly preposterous, and considering that 99% of A.net forum goers know more than 99% of all news paper reporters, I think we can ba
71 JetMaster : That may be true for regular papers, but are talking about aviation magazines and business papers which usually employ journalists who have a clue ab
72 Jet-lagged : Some reasons would be purchasing cycles or inconvenient circumstances like chapter 11 proceedings, and others are in the bidding pipeline. Certainly
73 Manni : That's an interesting league, how would you calculate that? By fleet size? Like to see that list if possible. Thanks in advance. The biggest order co
74 Post contains links Jet-lagged : Good question. Generally we would think about RPMs or Sales Revenue. But in this case we could consider total profitability, or total seats, or even
75 Manni : Very interesting and surprising list. The top 3 are all European airlines, in the top 10 is only 1 US airline and that's a LCC, 5 of them are from Asi
76 Manni : 29. US Airways
77 Dhefty : That list is old and inaccurate. I prefer to use IATA and ATW statistics which are regularly updated. Profitability is notoriously variable, so RPK's
78 Zvezda : I agree. Profitability is far too volatile to use as a measure of airline size.
79 BlueSky1976 : Split order would not make any sense from economical point of view, unless we're talking hundreds of frames. Here the battle rages on for the 50 fram
80 Pictues : Yes other sources I have heard from say that AC has already renegotiated with Boeing and are waiting for the pilots arbitration to be complete to ann
81 Zvezda : I agree regarding authority to offer, but I don't see moving the B787-10X ahead of the B787-9. There are too many program and technical reasons to bu
82 Jet-lagged : Glad to check out a link if you can provide one. I didn't find one with a limited about of googling. Thanks in advance. This list is not only profita
83 Post contains links Dhefty : Jet-lagged, here are two: http://www.iata.org/pressroom/wats/wats_passengers_carried.htm http://www.iata.org/pressroom/wats/wats_passenger_flown.htm
84 Post contains links Dhefty : Jet-lagged, here are two: http://www.iata.org/pressroom/wats/wats_passengers_carried.htm http://www.iata.org/pressroom/wats/wats_passenger_flown.htm
85 Post contains links Dhefty : Jet-lagged, see also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/list_of_largest_airlines
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