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Delta Airlines To Merge Song Into Mainline  
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13549 posts, RR: 100
Posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 19207 times:
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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1130...082143.html?mod=home_whats_news_us

This article surprised me:

Quote:

Delta Air Lines is considering a plan to eliminate its Song discount-airline unit, but the carrier would draw lessons from its experience with Song to spruce up its primary flights with satellite-television screens and other popular amenities.

later in the article

Quote:

Song workers already have been told that Delta plans to merge their employee roster and seniority list back into Delta's, which would be one of the first steps toward eliminating Song. Delta executives aren't considering abandoning the two-class service now used on Delta planes, since it helps to lure higher-revenue business travelers and other passengers eager to use frequent-flier miles to upgrade to first-class seats. Song's one-class service has worked mostly because the unit concentrates on leisure routes.

Lightsaber


Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
290 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLongbowPilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 577 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 19180 times:
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Well, sounds like DL is going to bring in Song for CH11, maybe after CH11, they will release it back to itself. I mean it really is nothing more than a PAINT JOB, and re-alocation of aircraft. They probably will still be serving the same routes, just allowing the equipment to be used on other routes, not SONG specific... Makes Sense... Kudos to DL!

User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7304 posts, RR: 57
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 19159 times:

For me, Song is the future of DL... Comfortable seating, modern design, PTV, quality buy on board etc.

I wonder if Delta doing something as radical as eliminating First class, and go 100% song economy product (sold as Delta obviously) could be a good step towards becoming solvent again... they have so much to do to overcome the 5.2bn loss last year.

By doing this, Delta would have a significant competitive advantage against American and United for the vast majority of their customers who can never expect an upgrade. A negative would be alienating some frequent flyers who expect their upgrade for nothing now.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineJmets18 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 178 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 19099 times:

can you post the whole article...

User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13200 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 19077 times:

Why should we surprised by this? How many times have 'airlines within airlines' failed at all majors. Except for shuttle flights, those less than 1.5 hours, you need 2 class service to have the income from the 1st/Biz class to make a profit. You also still have the high labor and operational cost structures at majors at the AWA's, the sources of the financial crises at legacy airlines. I do hope that some of the IFE, food ideas are carried over to DL to improve that service.

User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 19047 times:

Firstly, consider that the WSJ is not always entirely accurate when it comes to commercial aviaiton matters - that being said, I am sure that DL continues to evaluate the financial performance of its entire operation, and DL is certainly trying to determine if the Song product makes sense, making money and provides a competitve advantage on the lower-yeild/LCC competitive routes that Song flies.

On one hand, Song is a good product that pax seems to like - and most observers think that the Song product is more competitive than the standard DL product. On the other hand, Song is stuck with the basic DL cost structure (which is getting lower so maybe its not an issue) and Song flies highly competitive lower fare routes where it is difficult to make a profit. That Song lacks a first class cabin is a major issue for loyal DL customers - it is an issue on the transcon routes for example, there is a market that would prefer F class whether by paying for it or upgrade possibilities. The decision concerning the future of Song will be a difficult one for DL management.

The conclusion may be that the Song product becomes the basis for the standard DL mainline domestic product, and the Delta name is re-introduced on the Song routes. DL has invested in the Song brand, it would be a shame to now dump Song, but the Delta name is the more important product brand to protect.


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13549 posts, RR: 100
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 18995 times:
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Quoting Jmets18 (Reply 3):
can you post the whole article...

I'm trying to respect the A.net interpretation of copyright fair use. Posting the whole article usually results in a thread being deleted... (or at least that post)

The rest of the article just notes how DL passengers like the in flight entertainment, Song has about the same load factor as DL mainline, and how having a discount "unit" with better amenities than the mainline product is creating marketing problems. It also notes that it cost $65 million to launch song.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 4):
Why should we surprised by this? How many times have 'airlines within airlines' failed at all majors. Except for shuttle flights, those less than 1.5 hours, you need 2 class service to have the income from the 1st/Biz class to make a profit.

While I agree DL needs to return the 1st class, I would argue that on the routes DL employs SONG that the 1st class cabin wasn't generating revenue but was rather being used to reward frequent fliers. Its a good thing to keep the FF happy. But lets call a spade a spade and not pretend all routes generate premium revenue.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5):
Firstly, consider that the WSJ is not always entirely accurate when it comes to commercial aviaiton matters

True, but I consider their errors of the "honest type," where as many "industry rags" have an agenda. The WSJ tends to get the business case questions correct; I can forgive errors in reporting "industry minutia."

I agree and hope that the Song product is migrated to DL mainline. My question is how will this carry over to the RJ product? As I've posted before, I believe RJ's are being used on twice the routes that the small jets are viable on.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineGSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3105 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 18954 times:

By all accounts I've read or heard, Song is successful. Certainly, the pax love it. Why would a struggling airline want to eliminate one of the few innovations it's had in the past 30 years? That's the kind of thing it NEEDS to attract pax. You don't CUT your way to success or greatness, you provide a SUPERIOR PRODUCT.


Finally made it to an airline mecca!
User currently offlineInTheSky74 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 546 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 18890 times:

New York Magazine had an article recently that started that analysts believe Song lost $58 million last year.... so it's not successful for Delta. People I have spoken to at Song have said the same thing - they don't feel Delta is making money at Song.

Anyway - can someone post the full article? I'd love to read it.

Rob


User currently offlineInTheSky74 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 546 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 18825 times:

Here's another article that is free to read.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9849149/

Rob


User currently offlineN801NW From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 744 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 18813 times:

Here is the official PR:

Delta Announces New Domestic Long-haul Song Service

-- Airline to merge Song into Delta service


User currently offlineBoeing757/767 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 2282 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 18784 times:

Now that it's official -- what will happen to the largely leisure routes after next May, like BDL to Florida? RJs, routes dropped?


Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
User currently offlineHAJFlyer From Switzerland, joined Sep 2005, 1473 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 18757 times:

Any ideas on what impact the Delta decision will this have on TED ? I could imagine that this should allow TED to capture a larger share of the leisure market between FL and the northeast.

User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6790 posts, RR: 17
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 18711 times:

I think Song was an absolute genius way for DL to find out what the people want, how they act towards it, and what they can do with and without.. I say Kudos and will be happy if they bring the Song elements to other stations through DL mainline. I personally would like to see 3 tiers of the Song-esque aircrafts.. the 757, the 738, and the E70.. especially on routes to such leisure destinations as Florida, Caribbean, Colorado, and Southern California...


Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineGokmengs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1125 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 18630 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 13):
I think Song was an absolute genius way for DL to find out what the people want, how they act towards it, and what they can do with and without..

I completely agree with you on that, I'm a DL platinum medallion and although I liked song a lot I can understand FF's complaining about lack of first class or priority boarding etc. I missed that when flying song too. Now that DL has tested the product why not combine the best of both worlds and create a superior product that caters both to high yielding business pax(front cabin) and leisure traveller(coach) and still ofer what both liked in the song service solid IFE etc.(I'm hoping they will still offer great food for purchase too) IMO this is the biggest and most significant transformation DL has done in many many years and I like it.
Also don't forget this will alow them to efficiently swap the widebodies for international expansion.



Gercekleri Tarih Yazar Tarihide Galatasaray
User currently offlineUGA777 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 144 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 18620 times:

The Atlanta Journal Constitution is reporting that Song will be shut down by May 2006 and all aircraft will be brought back to mainline.

http://www.ajc.com/hp/content/shared...ap/Finance_General/Delta_Song.html


User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4976 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 18587 times:
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Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 13):
I think Song was an absolute genius way for DL to find out what the people want, how they act towards it, and what they can do with and without

Well, it was an expensive way to do it...it's a no brainer that people will like having an individual TV at their seat (look at the sheer number of threads on a.net concerning PTVs)

That being said, I guess better late than never....this should markedly improve DL's product offering domestically and bring back some of the FF base. From the cost perspective, the proposed cuts ($3 billion by end of 2007) should make up for some of the loss in seats for sale (about 19 seats per 757). Presumably, they would make up for some of this by selling higher fares (than Song) in the F cabin. Before DL mainline disappeared from transcons, with the advent of Simplifares dropping one-way First transcons down to about $600, there was an increase in the number of people actually paying these "A" fares. Now with Song, even if you want to pay $400 or $500 one-way to receive a better seat, you can't as there isn't even that option.


User currently offlineBNE From Australia, joined Mar 2000, 3189 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 18456 times:

Well I wonder what Jetblue think of this;

The thread heading has been modified to reflect that the paper got it right and DL confirmed what it was doing.



Why fly non stop when you can connect
User currently offline1MillionFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 18448 times:

I bet they are having a party at B6 today

User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 18402 times:

I think this is a HUGE mistake. I flew Song for the first time a couple of months ago (MCO-BOS-MCO) and loved the service. I was so impressed that when I had to go out to LAX, I decided to fly Song and forgo an automatic DL Platinum Medallion upgrade to first on its mainline service.

I just got back on from LAX on Wednesday and was again very impressed with the Song concept. The personal TV's, the food menu, and the extra inch of space make Song a FAR superior product than DL's mainline product in either class of service.

The planes were full both ways.

On board I watch a PPV movie, purchased lunch and a snack and was able to catch a bit of a nap.

DL had won me back through Song and now they're cutting it. I'm going over to United and taking advantage of its economy+. DL simply doesn't know what to do. They're desparate and seem to be a ship without a rudder.

The DL first class product is a joke. I would estimate that at least 75% of the people in the front are their on upgrades so the argument that it generates additional revenue for them is unsupported in fact.

Everyone at my company I've spoken to says that they would prefer a single class 33 inch pitch seat with IFE and an onboard for pay meal service over having to struggle to get upgrades when they fly.

I think DL's missed the mark with this one.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11976 posts, RR: 62
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 18380 times:

Yet another confirmation that "airlines within airlines" don't make business sense. Smart move Delta -- don't just seperate a little piece off and try and make that work, fix the whole airline.

User currently offlineAzstar From United States of America, joined May 2005, 631 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 18363 times:

Can Uni-Ted be far behind?

User currently offlineRichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4297 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 18369 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 13):
I think Song was an absolute genius way for DL to find out what the people want, how they act towards it, and what they can do with and without..

WHile I would agree with this statement, the fact that Song has been nothing but a money pit for Delta makes me think otherwise. It was not genius, unless you consider losing millions of dollars to be highly intelligent.

I know my buds OttoPyltt and NRK will be on here later to defend Delta to the hilt (whatever, I am over it!). Let me be clear though: at this point, integrating the Song experiment into mainline mixed-class service might be Delta's best bet. Keep the Y-class slummers happy (or happier, anyway) and still offer a Biz and First alternative.

As for the past, it was never the Song product that I always second guessed. It was the finances behind such an endeavor. Low load factors (do we have to go through this again?) on low yield routes with a high CASM aircraft do not equal great profits. Song was and is unprofitable in its current format, now more than ever. Filling 120 seats on a 199 seat aircraft to Florida from JFK with avg $140 fares is not going to get it done (I don't have actual current LFs or fares, but I doubt I am too far off). If someone from Song can provide numbers to the contrary, I'm all ears (OP).

We shall see what happens. Maybe Song will stick around and expand like the last time I made a prediction. (Maybe that will just dig Delta's grave a little further.) But expanding the product and placing it on mixed-class planes is really proof that Song alone is not the answer.

I know OttoPyltt and NRK have read this article (it was in USAToday also) and I know they thought of me when they read it.  Smile



None shall pass!!!!
User currently offlineCgnnrw From Germany, joined May 2005, 1171 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 18294 times:

I've never flown Song so I admit I'm no expert on their service but not being an expert never really put many A.neters off then has it????  Wink

I think DL could combine the best of Song in their mainline service to key business and leisure destinations. I understand the high-milage FFs want to have a bit more service as reward for their loyalty. Why not give them the extra legroom, free PTVs and improved meals for free and the keep the Song concept in economy. DL could allow the Medallian and FFers to board first since that seems to be so important to many FFers, the could have the chance to choose their favorite seats, priority with luggage, etc. I don't see what the big problem is as far as that goes.

Just my....  twocents 



A330 man.
User currently offlineBicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 18225 times:

It seems to me that United has done it right with Ted. Ted is dedicated to leisure markets with little full fare business and economy fliers. Ted's crew is all United; there's no separate employee list. Designing a product for specific markets (p.s. United and Ted) seems to be a smart move. Song seems to have had an identity crisis...flying to markets that should be higher yield for Delta along with the leisure routes.

25 RoseFlyer : By eliminating first class on all routes, DL will probably see yields and load factors drop in their BusinessElite on TransAtlantic routes, which is
26 ORD : Song will not be "released" back to itself. The unit will be gone for good. Also, Song is far more than simply a paint job. It has many attributes no
27 BigGSFO : Well I would like to think this move will raise the bar for the rest of the legacies. Maybe CO and AA can do a similar move at some point, but I have
28 Pope : The problem is that DL's domestic first class product sucks.
29 Post contains links Richierich : Here is the link confirming Song's future (sort of): http://money.cnn.com/2005/10/28/news/fortune500/song_foldin/index.htm
30 Kahala777 : Song, did not fail, Delta Airlines is turning its entire domestic product into a product that mirrors Song. Of course sans the Song scheme. Why? Delt
31 ORD : On a side note, with around 50 Song aircraft now needing to be repinted back to Delta, I wouldn't be surprised if Delta unveils a new livery within th
32 FLAIRPORT : I need to know this as well. DL files 2 of 3 nonstop flights FLL-BDL and its my only way to get to college...the flights are 100% full most of the ye
33 DLPMMM : If you would care to read the article, they are going to add a 1st class to the 48 Song 757s with PTVs (I assume since Y will have PTVs) plus another
34 Richierich : I agree ORD. Which is why I think you'll see these things put into mainline Delta over the next few years (if they have that long). I think they need
35 FLAIRPORT : And now song...er, Delta...will be able to counter B6 anywhere. I'm all for it as long as the options now available on song (TV, music, trivia, and t
36 Airbazar : Song and Delta are one and the same, save a few differences in amenities. More importanly, both have high labor costs, and neither is profitable. also
37 DLCnxgptjax : Some people on here are saying that it is a bad move for Delta to do this because their domestic product isn't that great. Although the song name will
38 Pope : The problem is that this isn't Europe. I'm sure that DL's product exceeds the standard intra-China F/C product but that's not the market they're part
39 Post contains images Cadet57 : I dont think this is a great idea, wont it cost more just to repaint, re alocate and just generally bring Song back into delta? I'll miss song alot my
40 BOSPMV : I am not sure if this has been discussed yet, but my question is what will happen to the routes that Song serves? Will they be cut down? Or cut comple
41 STT757 : Ted has no presence in the Northeast.
42 AANYC : Song was an incredible product. I commuted back and forth from MCO/JFK. Once again Delta found a way to screw these hard working employees of Song. En
43 Aanyc : With the majority domestic first class seats being used by frequent fliers who have upgraded, how does Delta or any carrier make money on it? I have a
44 Kahala777 : So let me get this right, you are saying that the following airlines and their domestic First Class product is superior to Delta Airlines? - America
45 AirCanada014 : Don't forget when Air Canada was in bankruptcy protection they too introduce Tango and made it seperate carrier then few years later they decide to em
46 PVD757 : I'm going to assume that the "over 50 more aircraft" to be converted to "Song Service" will equate to the entire 752 fleet. This makes sense to me. Th
47 UA744Flagship : I like this strategy, although the 'international invasion' strategy that is causing this reconfiguration seems a little overboard. It's a very intere
48 Derik737 : One thing to keep in mind is that the PTV system that DL is using for Song costs around $1.5 million per narrowbody aircraft (around 160 seats) just f
49 DAYflyer : I would have thought so too, especially with chapter 11. If I were running DL I would do this exact thing by converting DL to SONG and adding a busin
50 Litz : Actually, I'd say a 58million dollar loss, compared to DL mainline, is pretty darned successful ... (which was something like 2bil this year?) - litz
51 GeorgiaAME : I just wish I could mismanage my own business this badly, blow that much money on wishful thinking, and still get away with it. I am SO glad I sold my
52 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Big f#ck!n' surprise! Anyone want to take bets on when the United brain fart Ted will be reintegrated?
53 MSYtristar : Will this spell the end of much of the domestic 767 flying?
54 Post contains images Lemurs : That's only true if you're in a race to the bottom....in the long run, they need to turn profits. Going out of business more slowly than the parent a
55 ERJ170 : here is my question.. reading the article, it reads than an additional 48 aircraft will be retrofitted.. but does it specifically say they will be 757
56 MaverickM11 : They still have 27 non ER 763s so I'm not sure where you could send those...perhaps high density config for West Coast/Hawaii ops to free up some 764
57 Kahala777 : From the bulk of responses on this topic, I would suggest that people re-read the statement on FlySong.com. Song is going nowhere. If you take 2 minut
58 ACdreamliner : not all airlines who have created a low cost subsidary have had it fail. BMIbaby.com for example which was designed to last for 9months is still here
59 Apodino : This shouldn't really come as a surprise. Song was started back in the Leo Mullin days. When Grinstein came to Delta, he made it quite clear he was no
60 ORD : I don't believe these new flights will have BOB. The press release says "Incorporating Delta's new uniforms, improved snack service and award-winning
61 Post contains images PHLBOS : One of the raffle prizes (a recent add-on, mind you) at tomorrow's BOS Airline Show was 2 tickets for any Song flight itinerary. Would one assume tha
62 Cadet57 : Correct me if im wrong, but isnt that some of the most popular leisure routes? I remember everytime i flew dl/ song from bdl the plane had prob 80% c
63 Pope : That's not what I'm saying. I never said DL had the worst FC product in the US. I said it was an also ran. Certainly there are inferior products, but
64 Potomac : in drawing parallels to Ted, i'm just curious - anybody have any real evidence about Ted's performance, aside from the typical "it's a dumb idea" and
65 Post contains images Commavia : Shhh... you're giving away their top business trade secrets!
66 Gokmengs : I agree, I don't know why people see this as a failure. DL saw what truly works for its customers at song and now theya re incorporating that to thei
67 Panamair : Relax, many of the elements that Song had will remain in the Economy cabin! The big changes will be the addition of F (with PTVs obviously) in the fo
68 Alitalia744 : Song was always designed to be a test-market of some sorts, much like companies do with new products before launching nationally. Yes, test markets ar
69 FLAIRPORT : the problem with the BOB is that only on dinner and maybe breakfast flights is it popular. on a noontime flight nobody wants a full meal. They had to
70 PHLBOS : Excerpts below are from Song's website: ATLANTA, Oct. 28, 2005 – Delta Air Lines announced today that it will tap the best features of its highly a
71 MaverickM11 : The Song brand is disappearing; the good things Delta has learned from Song are staying. This is how it should have been in the first place. Same goe
72 N471WN : Just another example of why it is the incredibly incompetent management of DELTA and NOT its many fine workers that they Delta has so many mis-fires..
73 Atrude777 : What about the stations that don't receiev SONG or the 757 service? They will still thik Delta is "bad" because they must fly the RJ or 732 or MD88, p
74 Slider : Perhaps if DL worried more about running and managing an airline and not changing their livery, branding, and identity every couple months, maybe, ju
75 Jrlander : Hmmm... Let's see... Song allowed them to test quicker turn around times, now down to 45 minutes on domestic narrowbody planes; Song allowed them to
76 PHLBOS : One question that has not been asked as of yet is will cities that have DL service but not Song (example: PHL) see some of these Song integration chan
77 Potomac : Slider, you say that Ted is a stupid idea, but why? Sure, there are people out there (I have been one) who go from, say, IAD-MCO on business and would
78 Post contains links BigGSFO : Here is an audio from Marketwatch titled "Song Never Stood a Chance." Interesting: http://www.marketwatch.com/tvradio/p...3-AD3C-98BF8AB2443E%7D&sitei
79 Richierich : I don't agree with that. No company spends millions on a 4-year test market expedition! Song was designed to compete with the likes of AirTran and Je
80 Panamair : " target=_blank>http://www.marketwatch.com/tvradio/p...=yhoo The interviewer is so out-of-touch with the airline business (as are most media people) t
81 Gokmengs : True they needed good calculations for the demand at each flight I guess. Like you I loved the song menu and I hope they somehow migrate that to the
82 Panamair : Actually, while it may be disappointing to some of the Song Founders, the majority of employees are mainline DL and this move would actually improve
83 BigGSFO : I heard that too and thought to myself that they rushed to find the first person who could spell the word "Song" and interviewed him just to get the
84 Smcmac32msn : My big problem with airlines-within-airlines like Song and TED is the fact that they advertised them as "better service" when they came on the market.
85 PHLBOS : Here's a follow-up question: who in their right mind would spend nearly 15 times as much just to get a F/C ticket?
86 Smcmac32msn : I don't know... I think you could get a learjet flight for just a little more!!! LOL.
87 ERJ170 : More likely scenerio... Person A buys a coach ticket for $305 ATL to LAX, with a 25 lb bag, uses an upgrade coupon, and moves to FC... gets free food
88 Post contains images PHLBOS : One picture's worth 1000 words. That may be the only surviving song aircraft.[Edited 2005-10-28 20:17:27]
89 Jayspilot : This is a good thing period. as said above and in the press releases, delta is going to take the best of song and make that the new delta airlines.
90 Post contains links FA4B6 : from reuters.com: http://today.reuters.com/investing/f...IDST_0_AIRLINES-DELTA-UPDATE-2.XML Crogalski: great post!
91 UA744Flagship : I forgot to add... it's working. Perception becomes reality much of the time, just as there are people who book on Southwest no matter, even if there
92 N471WN : I am simply amazed that folks are defending DELTA on this embarrassing announcement on SONG by saying this is better for "mainline" DAL employees. DEL
93 ORD : Song has only been around about 2-1/2 years, not four.
94 Gigneil : This is the best idea Delta has ever had. Converting 50+ more aircraft to a 2 class Song experience will most assuredly drive revenue. Fantastic idea.
95 Aerofan : I just love it when exec make remarks like the ones made in the article about DL becoming the the choice of people flying transcontinental or about be
96 PlanesNTrains : I tend to agree. How hard was it to figure out that the amenities on Song would play well on most routes? In reality, though, it may very well have b
97 F27XXX : What does this mean to the traditional SONG routes to Florida? Are they gonna stay or go ? Tony
98 Panamair : They will stay although I'm not sure whether all of the NE-Florida flights will still be all-757s. They may have a mix of MD88s or 757s or 738s as we
99 Richierich : Assuming this statement is true, why did it take a massive investment into a doomed subsidiary to make it happen? Couldn't they have done this withou
100 Cloud4000 : Does anyone know what Song aircraft are going to be switched over to mainline?
101 JetBluefan1 : All of them. JetBluefan1
102 Richierich : Ummm, all of them
103 Ckfred : First of all, I think it makes sense to put back First Class on Song routes. There are people who are road warriors that expect upgrades, either becau
104 Galapagapop : What lessons will DL learn? This is identical to the DL Express unit. Just more paint, bigger aircraft and more losses. Its just a mystery how any air
105 SESGDL : From the official PR: "Song will continue to fly as a separate brand and customers will be able to book flights on Song until May 2006. The aircraft w
106 Potomac : it is far from identical to delta express. the song product is better and more favorably received than the mainline product, though it is not practica
107 Bigdrewfl : It was only a matter of time..... JETBLUE ROCKS!!!!
108 Potomac : i echo the comments made about this not necessarily being a 'victory' for jetblue. song as a distinct entity may be going away, but the popular produc
109 Jrlander : Can the non ER 767-300's make it from NYC to some European destinations? If so, converting those over to international service might make sense.
110 JetBluefan1 : I actually think this is a win for JetBlue. The Song experience will no longer be marketed as a separate product. What would their ads say: "If your f
111 Sspontak : Exactly was A.netters have been saying for the last couple of years is finally happening. Rolling Song into Mainline and adding first class. This was
112 Jrlander : Delta's costs have a lot to do with their debt levels. Their actual costs of flying are pretty low. They have extremely large FF numbers in the NE and
113 Potomac : thats a good point jetbluefan1, if delta really wants to be successful bringing in the song brand into mainline, it needs to be system-wide rather tha
114 MAH4546 : They are not severely low-yielding, especially PBI and FLL, which have a very strong amount of last minute travel and business traffic.
115 AANYC : Oh yes, and JetBlue's new advertising campaign is so HOT. "I had 2 customers that wanted to sit together, so I did" or "Someone came and asked what g
116 N509JB : Don't flatter yourself. Essentially, Song is living on in mainline Delta. The paint scheme is the only thing changing. I've actually know about this
117 Airzim : Best thought on this thread bar none. The Delta bigots have been defending how revolutionary and profitable SONG has been, then when it gets cancelle
118 Post contains links FA4B6 : "A victory for JetBlue" http://today.reuters.com/business/ne...basicIndustries&storyID=nN28522085 And AANYC .. that commerical is called "Mockumentary
119 SKYYBLUE : I just started training for B6 and Song/Delta was used many times in the last three days as an example concerning business/product.
120 ORD : I am the one that originally posted about a new livery. Although pure speculation at this point, I based my belief this will happen on comments Paul
121 Post contains images N509JB : Haha, just like a over simplistic Jetblue "fan". Like this is a question of winning and losing. The Song product has been so successful for Delta tha
122 WDBRR : I have flown both Jetblue and Song. I really think Song is very tacky, the lime green and white colors were ugly and the green, orange and bright blue
123 Richierich : I think its a hell of a lot more than just the paint scheme that is changing.... the whole brand is going away! No more Song flights - I think that i
124 Richierich : Oh puhleeze... Delta lost BIG TIME. This makes Jetblue's decision to pull out of ATL look tiny. Song was supposed to be Delta's answer to the LCC air
125 DeltaGator : They would lose a huge amount of their business travellers if they did this one. I know you already responded to this one but I can't think of any of
126 Potomac : if we are talking about what wasn't 'successful', it seems like it wasn't the overall Song product as much as it was the Song product being separate f
127 N509JB : No, it's not. No, it didn't. Again, as a theme of our "conversations" I know, and you don't. It name only. But hey, keep saying it if it helps you sl
128 Delta4eva : I'm sure DL would love to, but the costs of putting PTVs in every aircraft would be enormous. DL will start with the long-haul domestic routes and th
129 UAL-Fan : I think it's required to repaint the planes with new Livery after you go bankrupt. File bk, stiff all of your employees and creditors, repaint the pla
130 YoungFlyer : I flying Song in april, do think this will affect me in some way?
131 Airzim : Its funny you keep saying it yet nobody believes you. "Song wasn't a ticket to disaster," Mr. Grinstein said today, "but the track record is not good
132 Galapagapop : Wrong. Song vs B6 was the decision anyone made when going to florida in New York (Same for other markets or carriers). People preferred Song's inflig
133 N509JB : It wasn't losing "heaps or shit loads" of money. Again, the Song product is living on in mainline Delta. This is what people wanted. This is what man
134 Potomac : yes, let's tell it like it is. Song, as a separate and distinct product for Delta, wasn't profitable. but it was popular enough that it is being integ
135 Zippyjet : I never warmed up to the name Song for an airline. Best of luck to DL.
136 Gokmengs : I think you are or were smoking when you read the press release, how does a product being expanded with even more features such as First frickin clas
137 N509JB : So which is it? B
138 Xkorpyoh : Agree.. i love everthing about Song except the Name. I always wanted the Song product to be mainline DL and this is the start. Really great news!. I
139 Aanyc : Um, (as you put it), ask about 500 Song flight attendants if they will be furloughed, and they are going to tell you yes. After all of their hard wor
140 N509JB : There haven't been any announcements, and In-Flight is already accounted for in the past round that they did announce. I think they'll (you'll) be fi
141 Cloud4000 : I should have been more clear. Which particular aircraft are going to repainted and retroffitted?
142 Lono : Yes Grinstein said so.... did he ever get rid of them???? Say that to my friend who has 20 years in dept 120 who is done January 2006 The Kool Aid is
143 N509JB : Ok, and show me wher they said they will lay off the FA's effeccted by Song being folded into mainline. Go on, it should be fun to see your results!
144 Lono : Dept 120 is ramp/cargo...... Dooohhh!!! Ummmm yep... and it caused me to quit DL after 13 years.... Sad state of affairs for DL....
145 AANYC : The conference call moderator Joanne Smith-President of Song. My partner is a Delta/Song flight attendant. She stated 500 current Song flight attenda
146 N509JB : We were talking about FA's. I think of it as an exciting time. But I'm glad you left when you did. Delta needs less of the negative people like you a
147 Airzim : Show me any study anywhere that shows ANY revenue increase by having IFE? You can't because it doesn't exist. That being said you are adding more to
148 Lono : You know nothing of my history with DL... I gave 110 percent when I was with DL when they were a real airline that actually cared about their employe
149 Post contains images JetBlueAtJFK : Yea just a -$58 isn't bad, comon. Yes the ideas were genius and DL got a lot out of it but Song itself was a sort of failure. While this is a win for
150 Gokmengs : Ok now let me put it that way, how is song a failure if its EXPANDING in to the whole DL mainline? are you not seeing that because the planes wont ha
151 Post contains links FA4B6 : a great quote from newsday.com: "Jenny Dervin, a JetBlue spokeswoman, agreed the East Coast market remains highly competitive. "What other airlines do
152 OttoPylit : And your proof of this is where...? If you were over "it"(if it means getting your butt embarrassed in front of the entire a.net community for being
153 Post contains images MiCorazonAzul : All I have to say is: Looks like the public doesn't accept imitations afterall......it was ONLY a matter of time.
154 Gokmengs : You explained so much in detail and better I must add, what I have been trying to explain to some people here that just wont get it. Having said that
155 Airzim : I'll write slowly so you get it this time, IFE has ABSOLUTELY NO YIELD EFFECT. End of discussion. If IFE is so important let's see DL put IFE on the
156 OttoPylit : Really? Where was that said? OttoPylit
157 Airzim : It doesn't say they will expand it to the entire mainline product anywhere in the press release. This is the quote in delta.com. "Offering this exclus
158 Post contains images N509JB : I can show you post after post on here with people drooling over IFE, not flying certain airlines because they don't have it...You sorely underestima
159 Post contains images OttoPylit : Yea, I seem to have that problem. I'll try to dumb it down a bit so I can fit in with the crowd. LOL Otto
160 Airzim : ..and you Sir sorely overestimate its benefits. I'll try and say it again for the third time, no matter what IFE you have, there is no increase in yi
161 SongStar : My 2 cents here...and it will be short....for those of us who started this...it's as if we've been punched in the gut...and i don't know really what t
162 N509JB : Because Song had a different product. B
163 LegendDC9 : What?! so you want to tell me that taking your own aircraft, investing in branding, repainting, advertising, IFE, and new products, putting crews that
164 WDBRR : I flew Song to give it a try, Jetblue had the same prices and more flights. Doesn't surprise me that the fat lady sang.
165 Post contains images JetBlueAtJFK : No we can understand you so get over that and I was just saying what I think, I don't really need to you to post what he said over again, I know hot
166 FA4B6 : I happen to agree with the both of you here, however, I always said that rather then spend all that money on making Song, why not just improve Delta
167 Lono : I feel for you... It is my hope you have a job after the dust has settled... many of my old friends at DL will not... due to DL's crappy marketing...
168 Post contains links and images OttoPylit : It is? I thought it was the other way around. Because they had 2 different products and still do for now. They will soon have the same product and, i
169 Aanyc : JetBlue chic and sophisticated. That is one thing I've never noticed when flying JetBlue. You want to talk sophistication. Then PanAm, TWA, and Easte
170 Rainbird : The 500 FA's that may be furloughed are the result of the two seniority lists being combined effective Jan 1, 2006. Prior to today all of the estimat
171 AANYC : This is true. However, it does not change the fact that they were used by Delta/Song. That's right they were exempt. They did pay a price for this ex
172 WDBRR : I fully agree with this remark....Jetblue portrays themselves a a hip airline to fly.....sort of like what Braniff (I) tried to do (or did).
173 Post contains images SongStar : and to this I say AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! on a side note here....I was flying from LGA - FLL today when the news "broke". It's always great to learn f
174 FlyPNS1 : While Song was a good product, the actual Song brand never caught on. To this day, most people who fly on Song were buying their tickets on Delta.com
175 JetBluefan1 : You have to be kidding me. JetBlue attracts a very high crowd. They are very well known in Manhattan's aristocratic 'The Village' and upper-class Upp
176 Jasond : I watched a documentary recently called 'The Persuaders' which featured the launch of Song and the advertising campaign to promote it. The end result
177 OttoPylit : Song was an experiment. How was Delta to test Zone Boarding, Buy on Board meals, Power Turns for minimal ground time, etc.? They couldn't just roll i
178 FA4B6 : People don't think of us as a discount airline. They think of us as the airline with the leather seats, PTVs, sassy flight attendants, etc. We became
179 FlyPNS1 : DL could have tested all these things at regular mainline. DL does lots of tests at mainline all of the time. And if Song was just a testbed, why was
180 Lono : Exciting time's eh...... Good quote...
181 Post contains images LongbowPilot : Hmmm It didn't take very friggen long for this to turn into a mad rash of a DL bash! GOD PEOPLE, WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU! You are the most impatient p
182 1F : This will be my first public posting to this or any other forum bulletin board on the web of any genre. This particular forum was brought to my attent
183 LongbowPilot : WOW, now that is some shady shit! Kind of interesting to cut the pilots pay to save money, and we could cut the apron strings and gain far more.... T
184 Post contains images Lightsaber : I wonder, an overall more competitive DL would be more of a hassle to them than song. My understanding too. Bummer. They've delivered a good product.
185 LongbowPilot : Why would they furlough the F/A? I mean a few would be warranted, but while they absorb songs aircraft they are going to need F/As still so i don't f
186 Bucky707 : SongStar, Sorry that Song is going away and you will be back on the mainline. It was refreshing to work with the Song FAs everytime I flew it. As a g
187 Panamair : LOL! One of the funniest lines in this whole nasty thread! Sorry, but NO LCC (B6, Song, whatever) can remain "subtle, chic, and sophisticated", for v
188 1F : One of the greatest faults within DAL is that in years past (lets go to pre-Allen days) is the employee groups didn't use more common sense & organize
189 Post contains images Lightsaber : First, niteresting posts and welcome to a.net. As to long posts, you won't have me being the first to throw the stone in the glass house! I'll agree
190 1F : Yes, in fact I do. Both the 24 & 72 month investment amortization schedules. I'll pull all public from Moody for you if you're interested (some lease
191 Gokmengs : Excuse me I suggest you re-read my posts. I'm a DL platinum Medallion and I never bashed DL. Show me where I did, or apologize please. They are, read
192 AANYC : I must have flown JetBlue on off days. I don't recall seeing any "aristocratic upper-class" people from the city. Each time I have passed through ter
193 JetBluefan1 : You're making it sound like people who are going to Florida are stupid. That's simply not the case. I fly JetBlue to Florida all the time and I'm not
194 AANYC : I have been a f/a for over 20 years. The type of cars and someone's income does not dictate how they will behave onboard and aircraft. I have come in
195 JetBluefan1 : AANYC, I agree with you. Many people in the tri-state area and Palm Beach/Fort Lauderdale area are obnoxious, and they are not always the most pleasan
196 WDBRR : I just want to add....that Jetblue flight a month ago that had to land at LAX with a turned wheel ...did have an actress onboard who was interviewed a
197 BigGSFO : I would admit that jetBlue has done a fine job at establishing their unique brand and trendy image, however I wouldn't necessarily call them "sophisti
198 Post contains images N509JB : Because it's IMPOSSIBLE to do the types of things Song did over Delta's HUGE mainline fleet. THESE TYPE OF THINGS TAKE TIME. Having Song helped speed
199 Post contains links JetBluefan1 : I have given more than adequate evidence for a normal person to realize that what you just said is incorrect. I bet you 75% of Nassau County Long Isl
200 WDBRR : So the same can be said about any airline that MATCHES a fare, they will also attract the same crowd.....I am sure these types will also fly AA, CO,
201 N509JB : I watched people come off and go on Jetblue planes for 2 years, I have many friends that still work there that say the same thing. There's nothing yo
202 Mariner : That's not what I read. I read that Delta is going to improve the Delta domestic service, by incorporating some elements that were conisdered success
203 Evan767 : I think this is the best idea Delta has had in a while. So basically, all they're doing is transforming all 757's coach into an award-winning Song sty
204 Db373 : With all due respect Songstar, Song was also developed using Delta's money, so without DL, there would have never been a Song, and hence, you would e
205 Aanyc : This may be true. However, that is not how Delta treated them. They were payed at a lower rate than mainline, less benefits, and no duty regs. They w
206 N509JB : That's just not true. The techniques and a lot of FA's from Songs inflight service will be implemented. B
207 Aanyc : I don't know where you are getting your information from. Over 500 of the current Song flight attendants are currently subject to furlough. Of that n
208 N509JB : I know things that aren't available to you. B
209 Aanyc : I am glad that you have a crystal ball Joanne Smith-President of Song stated yesterday at 2pm EDT (conference call for Song f/a's) that 500 current S
210 OttoPylit : Thats the thing that no one is getting. They aren't eliminating it. They are turning the entire Delta product into a Song product. People loved Song,
211 N509JB : I wasn't talking about how many were gonna get laid off, if you go back and read my post. I was talking about the inflight service / style. That will
212 FlyPNS1 : This makes no sense. You say the elite FF's loved Song, but then you say they avoided Song because of no perks. If there were no perks and elites are
213 Panamair : The perception of the ordinary Joe Traveller may be but I really think the "benefit" to B6 is way overstated. It's not like DL is withdrawing from th
214 Post contains images OttoPylit : Fine, let me re-phrase it to make the point a little more clear. The Delta FF's loved Song's style and service(legroom, PTV's, service), but didn't l
215 Post contains images JetBlueAtJFK : What off-days are you talking about, there are no trailers on Long Island (If there is it has like 2 in the park) and people are not usually poor. Ye
216 Post contains images Mariner : I haven't heard such snobbery since I was last in England. I went to an Andrea Boccelli concert in Nassau County, and, believe me, it was several tho
217 Post contains images JetBlueAtJFK : I said no poor area's I did not say no obnoxious middle class ($ wise) and low class personality wise. Sorry I am stating what is true here. About car
218 Mariner : As I read it, you are equating the presence of money with "good" behaviour and the absence of money with "bad" behaviour. That isn't the way I find t
219 Post contains images JetBlueAtJFK : You no what I will take back part of what I said. There is one town in Nassau that has people who are poor in it. Hempstead (the actual town itself no
220 Lono : Ummmmm OK.....???? True that.... Perfect..... GO DONG!!!!! Yea!!! DONG
221 JetBluefan1 : Basically what's being said about Long Island is all stereotypes. We have a population of 3 million people. Yes, there will be obnoxious people. And y
222 LongbowPilot : I am very sorry, I slandered you... I reread your post and alas I read it wrong. Please accept my apology. Aren't there more than JUST B6 flying out
223 Post contains images Gokmengs : Accepted! Thank you I still don't know how my name got in that post I'm sorry but the whole argument you guys are having is ridicilous. Both B6 and S
224 Bigdrewfl : Well truth of the matter is that Song itself wont be available anymore and Jetblue is!!! The way I see it Jetblue is the winner because they are still
225 Post contains images Lightsaber : Yes, I'm interested. Can you send a link direct? Please, don't go out of your way, whatever is easy to compile. Absolutely true. However, through alu
226 Post contains images Mariner : cheers mariner
227 LongbowPilot : Christ, you are thick fricken headed! Song is an airline within the airline, Delta is absorbing the airline and placing the product within in its str
228 Post contains links Revelation : And the answer is: Taryn Manning! Thanks, Wikipedia! Yes, and you can't find a study anywhere that shows a revenue increase by using padded seats ins
229 Post contains images JetBlueAtJFK : After I've truly though it over I semi agree with you know about the worst formula but the Song over B6, no, lie. Out of everyone I know, my sister,
230 Post contains images SongStar : Ahhhh....I wasn't going to post on this topic anymore....but when a median age 14 year old ( reading your profile ) starts talking about "all the peo
231 Post contains images OttoPylit : Fortunately, DL already has a large amount of 738's and will probably be accepting orders once profitability comes back. Or turn to the 739, which is
232 DeltaMIA : There is far too much analyzing into this announcement. Bottom line is DL achieved what it wanted to with Song in 3 years instead of 5 years. Song's s
233 Mariner : I'd love to see a press release saying that. A year (?) ago, the Delta CEO said it should be called Swan Song. Note that it was the Delta CEO that sa
234 Post contains images N509JB : Ha! A True Delta employee, one who can laugh at himself and the situation, but relax with the knowledge that Delta will be back stronger and ever. Qu
235 DeltaMIA : He simply implied that had he been CEO he wouldn't have created an airline within an airline to compete in DL's most competitive routes. However to c
236 N509JB : Note that after he said that, he said he was mistaken and that Song was a great addition to Delta's future. And as it turns out, you can take that st
237 Mariner : He said he thought it should end. He has ended it. What is the problem? I don't understand why the Delta people are so defensive about this. There wa
238 N509JB : We've already explained this to you. Read the 2 posts above yours again. B
239 DeltaMIA : I didn't say it. I was summarizing what the DAL CEO said. I am not being defensive. I am stating it wasn't a failure. I actually view the merger as a
240 ExFATboy : Geez, we've been through this before. I've seen just as much "trashy" dress and behaviour on network carriers as on LCCs. That's God's honest truth.
241 ZKEOJ : Air Canada merged zip and Tango back into the mainline as well - just didn;t work out for them. They rather revamped the complete airline, and increas
242 Mariner : Oh, gosh, I call this defensive: I have not seen that stated anywhere about Song - in any media, any trade paper, any tv interview, any sound bite. C
243 1337Delta764 : I'm not totally sure that PTVs will appear on the entire fleet. For example, nobody and I mean nobody operates MD-80s with IFE. I think this may be be
244 Post contains images BigGSFO : The funniest thing I read all day! Agreed. This scratch fight over the class of folks living in Long Island would be much more entertaining if we cou
245 OttoPylit : As others have said, when Grinstein first stepped onboard, he said it should be called Swan Song. He said so because as the Chief of the BOD, he did
246 N509JB : Uh huh, are you done? Go read my post again. See the part where I said "no matter the airline" Good. Read and think before you reply, don't just reac
247 Mariner : I'm trying to look to the future, not to the past. Whichever way you slice it, the public - as much as they think anything - will think of Song as th
248 N509JB : Ok, so they have a CEO who doesn't know what's going on... ***raising pinkie to corner of mouth*** Riiiiiiiiiight. B
249 ExFATboy : Yes, I know someone said that - I was actually agreeing with you, that some of the JetBlue supporters on the board (such as this one) really overdo i
250 DeltaMIA : No that was just taking offense to that statement. Hence why it was internal and Delta offered Song founders 5 year jet set and flow back programs. N
251 AANYC : Hmmm....13-15 years of age. I guess that says it all. "Trailer Trash" is just a saying it has nothing to do with living in one. No low class people o
252 Post contains images OttoPylit : You were the one that kept bringing up what Grinstein "said" and what he "thought." So who was looking to the past? Because I prefer to insist that i
253 FlyPNS1 : I find this hard to believe that Grinstein knew so little about Song and its purpose. Particularly because the BOD would have had to sign off on anyt
254 Rick : I know this is a little off topic: If there are enough P&W powered 757's from other airlines parked in the desert, would it not be possible for Delta
255 Post contains images Mariner : Who mentioned Frontier? How did Frontier even come into this - or why? Frontier doesn't compete with Song. Frontier does compete with Delta, but appa
256 Post contains images JetBlueAtJFK : I did not say that I said not many poor or Trailer people as living in trailers. But they will still be around just in DL colors and business class s
257 AANYC : I realize that you do not live in a trailer. "Trailer Trash" is a term used by many indicating low class and rude individuals. Believe it or not ther
258 DeltaMIA : BOB will be decided in a few weeks. Personally I think it will be offered in coach, if not, then it will likely be offered 24 hours in advance by pre
259 Alitalia744 : Why would they? Did the creditors cry foul and object when UAL introduced PS service? No, I don't think so.
260 LongbowPilot : And you have personally taken a census of the Long Island area? Are you peddling brownies at the terminal entrance and polling them? No, I'm not knoc
261 Post contains images JetBlueAtJFK : Ok so now I am to young to comment and I can not comment until I am older. Again nice try but I am not waiting. Yes I do, I don't just stay in my tow
262 ORD : From ATW Online... "JP Morgan analyst Jamie Baker viewed the step as a positive for Delta and a negative for JetBlue. In a report released Friday, he
263 Post contains images Richierich : Sounds to me like they are ELIMINATING Song (as we know it). As a seperate airline-within-an-airline, it FAILED! Between Otto's posturing and NRK's s
264 PRAirbus : What a shame! Another classic example on how some airlines waste money! Wonder how much they spent on SONG's uniforms (Kate Spade) etc...all that is n
265 Richierich : Good postscripts to a sad song.
266 Post contains images Xkorpyoh : True. Some FFs avoid Song because they prefer the upgrades over PTVs, but others do prefer the fancy IFE instead. (I just dont like not getting prior
267 Post contains images OttoPylit : Not surprising that you find it hard to believe, since you know so little about this whole deal. Grinstein knew so little because he was against havi
268 OttoPylit : LOL I agree. But its part of a marketing effort by a new jeans designer that wants them out. I forget the name of it right offhand, but it is mention
269 Post contains images Mariner : You're getting weird now. Frontier is not "my" airline. The little flag beside my name, in my case, is accurate, I live in New Zealand. Last time I c
270 Richierich : What was proven? Am I missing something? I am quite sure you haven't proven anything to me or anyone else on this website OttoPylit (spelled correctl
271 DeltaMIA : No they aren't. The costs of of operating a Song 757 compared to that same 757 as mainline DL was 20% less until the Song work rules and payscales we
272 Exusair : They are wearing jeans for breast cancer awareness day. 1 day only.....
273 FlyPNS1 : Thanks for the laugh. If Mullin really knew what was going on in the industry, then DL wouldn't be in the mess its currently in. Mullin had no idea h
274 DeltaMIA : No marketing department in their right mind would sell something as a result of a failed attempt. Airlines as a whole have made a lot of changes late
275 OttoPylit : No, no, no. You got it all wrong. You've admitted to me before that you like Frontier, so I was just ribbing you about the U.S. airline you seem to l
276 OttoPylit : Grinstein figured Mullin knew what was going on, otherwise he would have asked him to step down much earlier. That was the view Grinstein had; "Well,
277 FlyPNS1 : Obviously Grinstein figured wrong. I thought you said that DL doesn't backpeddle. Yet, here in your own words, DL backpeddled. DL's been doing that f
278 CO757bos2iah : I'm glad someone on here gets it. Trying to turn a portion of your operation in WN,B6, Frontier,Midwest or whomever is the DUMBIEST thing. It doesn't
279 DeltaMIA : No, but for service on DL with leather seats, PTV's with a start of the art IFE and increased seat pitch it will be called Song service. That isn't a
280 BoeingPride800 : What does this mean for Song passengers. What if you book a trip on Song now and then DL does merge it into mainline. Will your itinerary change? Will
281 Gigneil : Of course it won't, and of course you won't. N
282 Post contains images Mariner : Frontier does not have leather seats. cheers mariner
283 DeltaMIA : Oh my bad. One of the few airlines I haven't had the privilege to fly on.
284 LongbowPilot : Oh My GOD!!!! This is so out of fricken control anymore! You all do nothing but bicker on here. ONLY on the flippin internet can people: kids, corpora
285 Post contains images Richierich : The 757 is a relatively heavy 199-seat aircraft and yes, it does burn a lot of fuel on runs such as MCO-JFK. One way to offset this is by having the
286 Post contains images SongStar : OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!! I love you ....i have to say you have hit the nail on the head....i agree with you 100000%.... and after much thought...I do thin
287 FlyPNS1 : Why should we accept it, when it is wrong? Many of these DL employees are mis-informed and most are very biased. They only see one side of the story.
288 SongStar : FlyPNS1, There is absolutely nothing wrong with disagreeing...and in my post I didn't say there was...I said people weren't being constructive...and t
289 Post contains images OttoPylit : They didn't backpeddle. To backpeddle would mean to change the program back to the way it was. They did not do that. The customers did not like the n
290 LongbowPilot : Insert any airline in that statement, and you would have any number of employees from those airlines fighting for their companies honor. Go sell craz
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