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Aeroflot To Choose Between A350 And 787 Next Week  
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 10 months 6 hours ago) and read 12415 times:

The company is due to reveal the successful bidder on Thursday 3 November, awarding business with a list value not far short of $3 billion.

“We are looking at taking deliveries starting in 2009,” says director for route network management Alexander Kanischev. “Our long-term plan envisages acquiring up to 22 long-range passenger aircraft.”

If the airline decides to go with Airbus, it would have to wait a little longer for first deliveries as the A350 is not due to enter service until mid-2010.



From Flight International:
http://www.flightinternational.com/A...350+and+787+next+week.html#Scene_1



[Edited 2005-10-28 11:43:17]

49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJoKeR From Serbia, joined Nov 2004, 2238 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 6 hours ago) and read 12376 times:

This announcement will be the one to watch, could be quite interesting!

Any bets?



Kafa, čaj, šraf?
User currently offlineJetMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 6 hours ago) and read 12376 times:

That will be an extremely interesting announcement. Both companies should have realistic chances.

“We are looking at taking deliveries starting in 2009,”

Well, they might have a preference to get the first birds in 2009, but that doesn't exclude a later date. Some months shouldn't make such a big difference if they get a good deal.


Regards,
JM


User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3509 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 6 hours ago) and read 12324 times:

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 2):
“We are looking at taking deliveries starting in 2009,”

I think 787 for 2009 are already sold out and A350 will not be ready. I think Airbus still has political advantage.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 6 hours ago) and read 12289 times:

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 2):
Both companies should have realistic chances.

I think politics will play a major role here. Expect Washington, Berlin & Paris to give Aeroflot free "advise" to make a "balanced" "realistic" and "wise" decision.

Recent involvement of Russian industry (Irkut) by A is no coincidence IMO.


User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5025 posts, RR: 44
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 6 hours ago) and read 12284 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 3):
I think 787 for 2009 are already sold out and A350 will not be ready. I think Airbus still has political advantage.

I think the exact opposite: Russia wants to keep both the US and EU happy, and Airbus already has the narrowbody deal. This order is Boeing's to lose, I believe.


User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25062 posts, RR: 46
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 4 hours ago) and read 12118 times:

hmm, could be coincidence however the Russian Minister of Industry will be visiting the US and will be meeting with of all companies... Boeing


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineDynkrisolo From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1862 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 4 hours ago) and read 12031 times:

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 5):
I think the exact opposite: Russia wants to keep both the US and EU happy, and Airbus already has the narrowbody deal. This order is Boeing's to lose, I believe.

I have my first agreement with Scorpio.  Wink Yes, I also think Russia will likely play both sides even. So, the scenario of narrowbody orders to Airbus and widebody orders to Boeing seems to be the most logical split.


User currently offlineUSAF336TFS From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1445 posts, RR: 52
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 3 hours ago) and read 11997 times:

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 5):
Quoting Danny (Reply 3):
I think 787 for 2009 are already sold out and A350 will not be ready. I think Airbus still has political advantage.

I think the exact opposite: Russia wants to keep both the US and EU happy, and Airbus already has the narrowbody deal. This order is Boeing's to lose, I believe.

Couldn't agree with you more. Boeing's advantage here is that they may be able to find Aeroflot some used MD-11 freighters which they desperately want.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 6):
hmm, could be coincidence however the Russian Minister of Industry will be visiting the US and will be meeting with of all companies... Boeing

This is telling. And as has been pointed out, Airbus has their short haul fleet pretty much wrapped up. I expect Boeing to get this order.



336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
User currently offlineAmy From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 1150 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 3 hours ago) and read 11979 times:

Quoting Dynkrisolo (Reply 7):
narrowbody orders to Airbus and widebody orders to Boeing seems to be the most logical split.

I'd like to think that Aeroflot will take the aircraft that's best suited to their needs... but you're probably right.



A340-300 - slow, but awesome!
User currently offlineKorg747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 549 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 3 hours ago) and read 11963 times:

It also makes sense to get the 787s since the A350s are sized similer to the 777-200ER, which they let go off, versus the 787 which is close to the 767s they operate now.


Please excuse my English!
User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 3 hours ago) and read 11955 times:

Quoting Dynkrisolo (Reply 7):
I have my first agreement with Scorpio. Yes, I also think Russia will likely play both sides even.

Strange...I also agree with Scorpio.


User currently offlineBA319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8527 posts, RR: 54
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 3 hours ago) and read 11899 times:
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Quoting Scorpio (Reply 5):
think the exact opposite: Russia wants to keep both the US and EU happy, and Airbus already has the narrowbody deal. This order is Boeing's to lose, I believe.

Could not agree more. SU have just placed order for 7 additional 321's, there are still large numbers of TU's to replace so many more Airbus narrow's could follow, so placing a 787 order will keep Boeing & the USA happy.



111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6885 posts, RR: 63
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 3 hours ago) and read 11816 times:

Quoting Korg747 (Reply 10):
It also makes sense to get the 787s since the A350s are sized similer to the 777-200ER

The A350-900, perhaps, but not the -800.


User currently offlineDalavia From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 546 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 2 hours ago) and read 11763 times:

Where is the Il-96 in this battle?

IMHO it is a sad sign of the times that there are no Russian jets available or being considered for Russia's once-proud flag carrier.

Having said that, I agree with the other posts --- political 'even-handedness' suggests that this order is Boeing's to lose given Aeroflot's recent A319/320/321 orders.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 2 hours ago) and read 11743 times:

Any landing-/overfly rights up for (re)negotiation?

User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 2 hours ago) and read 11674 times:

A few weeks ago..

Airbus offered Russia's aerospace industry as much as a 3 percent stake in its new A350 airliner.

United Aircraft Construction Co., a new company combining Russia's existing aerospace businesses, is interested in the stake, Airbus Chief Executive Gustav Humbert said at a conference in Paris Friday. "We have given an offer of work-share of roughly 3 percent to United Aircraft Co., and they're preparing the bid," he said.

Airbus has an engineering center in Moscow that will help design parts for the plane, Humbert said. Airbus said in December that it offered a 5 percent stake in the A350 to Chinese companies.

Russia is planning to set up an aircraft company by the end of 2006 that will combine OAO Irkut Corp., a maker of Sukhoi fighter planes; OKB Sukhoi; MiG Corp.; OAO Ilyushin; OAO Tupolev; and engineering units and factories.


http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/243864_russia08.html


User currently offlineN1786b From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 559 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 2 hours ago) and read 11644 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 20):
A few weeks ago..

Airbus offered Russia's aerospace industry as much as a 3 percent stake in its new A350 airliner.

So?

Maybe that was for the 7 A321s and 5 (?) leased A320s.

- N1786B


User currently offlineJakeOrion From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1253 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 2 hours ago) and read 11624 times:

Should be interesting. Can't wait to see the outcome for this one. Good luck to both companies for the deal.


Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6484 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 2 hours ago) and read 11602 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 19):
2. It is unknown if B787 will be a better aircraft than A350.

Depends upon your metric. If you're an airline or its shareholders, the 787 is a more economical choice for many routes. The A350-900 may be a better choice for higher capacity routes, barring the existence of the 787-10.

However, if you are BP, Royal Dutch/Shell, Alcoa, or Alcan, you will root for the A350.  Wink



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineKL808 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1584 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 2 hours ago) and read 11580 times:

Quoting N1786b (Reply 21):
So?

That doesn't seem significant but it is for a 20 year program.

A lot of people say that B will win this, ok then ill go for the underdogs and say Airbus will win it all.  Wink

Drew



AMS-LAX-MNL
User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 2 hours ago) and read 11547 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 19):
1. It is unknown what deals Aeroflot is offered.
2. It is unknown if B787 will be a better aircraft than A350.

You state certain facts correctly. But the tea leaves are clearly pointing a certain way. Airlines and lessors that have signed up for the 787 or A350 clearly have done their homework before signing the dotted line and committing billions of dollars. While there are many unknowns about the 787, it has clearly impressed many important players. The A350 may do the same or perhaps better but that remains to be seen.

Like China, Russia uses aircraft purchases as a part of diplomacy. Given recent history and that fact, I think one can reasonably say that 787 may have the edge.

[Edited 2005-10-28 16:19:23]

User currently offlineUSAF336TFS From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1445 posts, RR: 52
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 2 hours ago) and read 11508 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 19):
Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 14):
Ultimately Aeroflot will try and get the best deal for the best aircraft. This one is clearly leaning towards Boeing.

1. It is unknown what deals Aeroflot is offered.
2. It is unknown if B787 will be a better aircraft than A350.

1. I reference this ENTIRE thread... A.Net is mostly speculation which we all divulge in, and enjoy.

2. I didn't say which one was better. I said the Airlines will decide which one will be better for their own circumstances. The order counts speak for themselves.



336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3509 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 2 hours ago) and read 11493 times:

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 26):
The order counts speak for themselves.

I'm affraid it doesn't. You need to consider for how long each of the models is being offered. Order count in 10-15 years from now will be speaking for itself. Not now.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 10 months 2 hours ago) and read 11488 times:

Quoting N79969 (Reply 25):
Airlines and lessors that have signed up for the 787 or A350 clearly have done their homework before signing the dotted line and committing billions of dollars.

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2147542
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2285612
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2096858

Will ILFC (hopefully) be the first leasing company for the 787? N79969 can you go deeper into this homework thing?


25 GARPD : This order has Airbus written all over it. It just smacks me as the most obvious choice given the political atmosphere and Airbus' recent "moves" with
26 USAF336TFS : You can pick and choose any facts you want to believe. Me, I try and look at everything from all perspectives. In 10 or 15 years, the order count mig
27 Atmx2000 : I'm surprised that no one has brought up the fact that Boeing has employed many Russian aerospace engineers on commercial aircraft development for ma
28 Post contains images BlueSky1976 : Here's whats going to happen: Aeroflot will buy 787s, one of them they will sell to the new Russian aerospace company that will result from the planne
29 GARPD : I agree with you, it makes sense. But since when has that stopped an airline ordering an aircraft it doesn't need due to "other requirements"?[Edited
30 N79969 : Keesje, According to the Wall Street Journal, ILFC has signed up. Given the reputation of that newspaper and that ILFC orders are considered harbinger
31 N328KF : Interesting that you point this out. Look at the noses of the RRJ and 787, and Boeing has a hand in both.
32 Atmx2000 : You ignored the first part of the post. Which other requirements? Boeing already has a significant relationship with Russian vendors and a direct rel
33 GARPD : Again, I completely agree with you. I just get the feeling this is Airbus' order. Why? Simply said, they WANT another A350 order. I won't say despera
34 Atmx2000 : If you arguing that Airbus is going to give steep discounts and/or huge industrial offsets to win the order, well that is certainly a possibility. Th
35 GARPD : Perhaps I should have been clearer from the start, my apologies.
36 Atmx2000 : No problem. My view is that the order probably favors Boeing on the basis of the aircraft, but that Airbus could win if they give a really sweet deal
37 Lumberton : GARPD, based on my (very subjective) impression of Mr. Putin's posturing recently, I feel you may be correct. This will be his chance to show the U.S
38 FCKC : Probably they will go 787.
39 WhiteHatter : My money is on the 788. The A350 may be a little bit too large for SU as they found with their 772ER frames, replacing them with the 763. Unless Airbu
40 Hjulicher : Aeroflot just recently ordered 6 IL-96 300's so I wouldn't say that the Russian aerospace industry is out of luck. Just wait till the RRJ. Once that i
41 Sq212 : Roger. SU ordered 7x 321 last week, A350 should have included in that order if they go for it. Cheers
42 Iwok : I think the Boeing design center in Moskow may be part of this political effort. Also I'd expect Vlad and W to be getting together for a couple of BB
43 Zvezda : SU will order whatever Putin wants them to order. Price and performance are very nearly irrelevant. Anyone making a decision that Putin doesn't like w
44 Post contains links Keesje : Interesting : - deal for 22 aircraft - acquisition MD-11 freighters for new Aeroflot-Cargo is being tied to a possible 787 deal http://www.flightinter
45 EI321 : SU have like 8 767s but dont forget their fleet of IL86/96 (which are more imminent for replacement) is bigger and closer to the size of the A350.
46 Byrdluvs747 : Why is Aeroflot so tied to the MD-11. Couldn't Boeing offer them a deal involving some 744F's?
47 RedChili : Actually, SU didn't get rid of the 772 because it was too big. They did it to get fleet commonality. SU had no problems filling up the 772, but they
48 American 767 : I think that Aeroflot will replace the IL-86 way before the IL-96. Aeroflot recently ordered an additional 6 IL-96's, that means they are planning to
49 DL021 : For the same reason other major freight operators (FedEx, Lufthansa, etc) like the MD-11F..... it does the job in the most effective and economic man
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