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TAM Requested Sao Paulo-London Service  
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Posted (8 years 11 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4226 times:
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Yesterday TAM has requested, since they get the information that a revision on the bilateral between Brazil and United Kingdom will take place on January 2006, approval from Brazilian CERNAI (DOT) to fly a route Brazil-United Kingdom (probably GRU-LGW).

This is a top route with very high loads and yields for both British Airways and Varig, but in order to obtain the frequencies , TAM need:

1) The bilateral revision allowing additional 7 (or more) frequencies per week for Brazilian airlines;

2) Varig states that it`s not in condition to use the additional frequencies as per a Brazilian Law Resolution of 2003, routes to Europe, Asia and Middle East may not be used by more than 1 brazilian airline (this restriction do not applies for the destinations already attended by more than 1 company like CDG)

3) TAM need to receive back from Etihad on 2006 their 3 A332 (now wet-leased). One will be used to make GRU-JFK daily. Two could run the new GRU-LGW.

This revision on bilateral has been requested by British side, so probably British will add new service to Brazil OR Virgin will start their wish-list service to Rio.

TAM is very close to American (and also uses British lounge at MIA , Virgin lounge at JFK) and it could drive London as their new destination. But Varig could be in better shape and improve their London route, avoiding a new player.

IMO TAM will start GRU-LGW while Virgin could run the GIG-LHR.

Good to Brazil and UK

Felipe


New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2162 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (8 years 11 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4205 times:

Do you have sources?

User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4201 times:

I think Sao Paolo is well served from the UK. We have both Varig and BA to choose from. That seems sufficient.

Of course what we really could do with is an airline to serve the UK from either Caracas, Bogota or Lima where there are no services from London at present.


User currently offlineBBJII From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 850 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (8 years 11 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4200 times:

Good Luck to TAM....

nice ro see that the need for more flight exsists and hopefully othe Soth American carriers will follow suit.



Remember: The Bird Hit You, You Didn't Hit The Bird.....
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Reply 4, posted (8 years 11 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4186 times:
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Quoting AF022 (Reply 1):
Do you have sources?

Yes. I'm now in ATL Airport, but i have some very good friends on Brazilian CERNAI, it`s the authority that grants slots for international flights to our companies. They confirmed UK has requested a formal revision on the bilateral and that negotiations will begin on january 06.

TAM has posted a formal request for any additional frequencies on the brazilian side.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4176 times:
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Quoting Orion737 (Reply 2):
I think Sao Paolo is well served from the UK. We have both Varig and BA to choose from. That seems sufficient.

That's why i believe that Virgin could run a LHR-GIG flight.

Also, both BA and Varig obtain high loads (and yields!) during all the year. RG in many days face overbook (and i remember they do not use a very good equipment in the route). It`s almost impossible to do a short term book in the brazilian side.

Tam is looking for premium routes to use 2 planes next year, and London seems a good market for them.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineJJMNGR From Brazil, joined May 2004, 1018 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4150 times:

Yes, it is right confirmed. All the information proceed.

User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4128 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
This revision on bilateral has been requested by British side, so probably British will add new service to Brazil OR Virgin will start their wish-list service to Rio.

The UK requested the revision prompted by VS, which wants to run LHR/LGW-GIG flights. VS stated and restated many times it want to start GIG services. The revision in the bilateral could lead to two new airlines in the UK-Brazil market: VS and TAM, in addition to BA and RG.

GRU is currently one of BA most profitable routes worldwide. The daily B747 is always full on biz/first and has also high loads on economy. GRU is a money machine for both BA and RG.

As Felipe mentioned, GIG could open a new window market for VS, especially if they provide onward connections to VS's Asian/Far East routes, including Australia.

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 2):
I think Sao Paolo is well served from the UK.

Brazil is well served from LHR (14 weekly flights), but there is room for improved. If compared to CDG (38 weekly flights), FRA (24 weekly flights), LIS (58 weekly flights), MAD (24 weekly flights), LHR still is outperformed by other major markets.

Interesting to note that this Tuesday will mark the return of regular charter flights from the Uk to Northeast Brazil on the route LGW-NAT every Tuesday with the B763.

TAM is making important inroads in RG intercontinental markets, first CDG, then JFK and now LON.

I think TAM is about to join OW, and in this way BA could help TAM to establish a slot in LHR. If BA-TAM partnerhsip BA could also hub its operations in GRU, as TAM could provide onward connections for the Brazilian and deep South America market. BA-TAM could also pose an obstacle for VS to enter the Brazilian market...on the other hand, TAM could also partnership with VS...let's see how things develop...VS and TAM have a similar strategy without participating in any major alliance.

Rgs,


User currently offlineRafabozzolla From Brazil, joined Apr 2000, 1229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 11 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4047 times:

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 6):
Yes, it is right confirmed. All the information proceed.

Do you know if the request is for LHR or LGW?


User currently offlineB742 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 3768 posts, RR: 19
Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4027 times:

Excellent news, about time LHR received another S. American carrier!

Have they requested LHR or LGW, can they fly to LHR?

I would love to see VS in GIG as much as TAM in LGW/LHR!  Smile

GIG-GRU-JFK starts Nov 11, can't wait!  Smile
http://www.tamairlines.com/

BTW will TAM use their brand new A330's that have recently been seen at TLS for this route, and which terminal will be used in JFK?

Can BA operate double daily GRU flights, or are they only allowed 7x weekly?

Rob!  wave 


User currently offlineRunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2194 posts, RR: 35
Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4014 times:

Quoting B742 (Reply 9):
Have they requested LHR or LGW, can they fly to LHR?

They can request LHR but whether they get any useful and workable slots there is doubtful. Unless another carrier gives them their slots chances are their London airport will be Gatwick.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 11, posted (8 years 11 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3959 times:

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 8):
Do you know if the request is for LHR or LGW?



Quoting B742 (Reply 9):
Have they requested LHR or LGW, can they fly to LHR?

There are NO slots in LHR, unless 1) TAM "buys" the slots from another airline; or 2) another airline (e.g. AA, BA or VS) "gives" the slots to TAM. Otherwise TAM would have to operate in LGW, which is a major drawback since high-yielding pax prefer much more LHR due to transport connections to the City, etc.

Interesting to note that RG has "enhanced" slots in LHR for the daily GRU-LHR flights and the 3 x week LHR-CPH flights!

Quoting B742 (Reply 9):
Can BA operate double daily GRU flights, or are they only allowed 7x weekly

No. The current UK-Brazil is now operating in its limit: 14 weekly flights. With the liberalisation we can expect a major shake-up in this market, maybe both TAM and VC enter the market.

It is a fact that OW and Sky are trying very hard to attract TAM to their alliance. Maybe as part of the negotiations of TAM joining OW, BA would give them slots in LHR...just a feeling. In my opinion, OW is the "right" alliance for TAM since TAM keeps a strategic partnership with AA in the US market. If TAM joins OW we could also see TAM starting operations to MAD, and reforcing SCL. TAM is also very close to JAL, a future OW member.

Rgs,


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3812 times:
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Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 11):
Interesting to note that RG has "enhanced" slots in LHR for the daily GRU-LHR flights and the 3 x week LHR-CPH flights!

Hardi i see RG defending its position at LHR: they probably will increase flights to/from LHR using their slots to CPH. Varig will obtain more 777`s soonest and probably they start to use them to LHR.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 11):

It is a fact that OW and Sky are trying very hard to attract TAM to their alliance. Maybe as part of the negotiations of TAM joining OW, BA would give them slots in LHR...just a feeling. In my opinion, OW is the "right" alliance for TAM since TAM keeps a strategic partnership with AA in the US market. If TAM joins OW we could also see TAM starting operations to MAD, and reforcing SCL. TAM is also very close to JAL, a future OW member.

Agree 100%, and also TAM keep using BA lounge at MIA.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32799 posts, RR: 71
Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3795 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 12):
Hardi i see RG defending its position at LHR: they probably will increase flights to/from LHR using their slots to CPH.

Slots are time alloted, so unless Varig can use the same exact take-off/landing slots for GRU-LHR, that is not happening.



a.
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Reply 14, posted (8 years 11 months 16 hours ago) and read 3680 times:
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Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13):
Slots are time alloted, so unless Varig can use the same exact take-off/landing slots for GRU-LHR, that is not happening.

Its possible for RG to change the slot with other company ?

As the plane nowadays leaves LHR about two hours after it arrives, RG could put a second flight with departure two days after the first one. The same for the return as the plane arrive from CPH before come back to Brazil.

I think it`s possible to run the second flight with those slots.

Have you returned to MIA MAH4546 ?

Regards
Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineAwysBSB From Brazil, joined Sep 2005, 561 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 11 months 14 hours ago) and read 3618 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 11):
It is a fact that OW and Sky are trying very hard to attract TAM to their alliance. Maybe as part of the negotiations of TAM joining OW, BA would give them slots in LHR...just a feeling. In my opinion, OW is the "right" alliance for TAM since TAM keeps a strategic partnership with AA in the US market. If TAM joins OW we could also see TAM starting operations to MAD, and reforcing SCL. TAM is also very close to JAL, a future OW member.

Maybe I am wrong, but I perceive TAM has a great inclination to develop itself independently of the current global alliances (like One World, Sky Team and Star), since this airline has varied alliances.
My hope is that TAM becomes one of the founders (among Vingin, Emirates, Malaysia, etc) of a new global alliance, because the World needs more than three competing airline groups, even if the fourth group be very weak for a short term.


User currently offlineCV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 11 months 14 hours ago) and read 3600 times:

Hi!

I think it is my understanding that TAM is taking advantage of the fact that RG is weak at this moment and still waiting to recover with their finances. I have a great impression of TAM and I just want to share something that hapened with me in June 2004. I was in Asuncion/Paraguay to get my TAM flight to Curitiba, the flight was already delayed from SCL, so the delay was about 1 hour and what I noticed was at TAM counter there was a person playing paraguayan music and at the same time there was a waiter serving soft drinks and aperitifs to the passengers od TAM flight, very, very old fashioned but really, really nice for us the passengers...... and you know, no one complaint about the delay and we were just having some "music hall" relaxed time, so kuddos for TAM!!!
Regards


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32799 posts, RR: 71
Reply 17, posted (8 years 11 months 13 hours ago) and read 3584 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 14):
Its possible for RG to change the slot with other company ?

Yes, but slots are valuable, so getting good slots will cost Varig a lot of money, and slots at LHR cost in the seven digit range.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 14):

I think it`s possible to run the second flight with those slots.

Maybe, but, IIRC, slots are designated for take off and landing.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 14):
Have you returned to MIA MAH4546 ?

No, but I commute between Miami and Chicago. I didn't leave because of the hurricane, I just happen to be living in Chicago right now.



a.
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Reply 18, posted (8 years 11 months 3 hours ago) and read 3420 times:
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Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
Yes, but slots are valuable, so getting good slots will cost Varig a lot of money, and slots at LHR cost in the seven digit range.

And i can`t believe Varig will spend money with slots (as they do not have too much available)

Quoting CV990 (Reply 16):
I think it is my understanding that TAM is taking advantage of the fact that RG is weak at this moment and still waiting to recover with their finances

Yes, you`re right. But as the revision will take place on 2006, as LHR is a top route for RG (Top 5), i can`t see RG alowing JJ strong competition. I believe RG will try to run the additional frequencies, even with 767-300ER !

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25438 posts, RR: 49
Reply 19, posted (8 years 11 months 2 hours ago) and read 3404 times:

Technically Varig does hold enough slots to operate LHR-GRU double daily.
As people might remember the current GRU-LHR flight continues to CPH. By dropping the tag CPH flight Varig end up with two pairs of slots that could be used for LHR-Brazil flights.

In addition Star carriers have on multiple occasions informally swapped slots around at LHR to help each other out, with LH/SK/BD in particular helping their long haul partners at Heathrow.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineDaddiesSecret From Niue, joined Sep 2005, 270 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 11 months ago) and read 3374 times:

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 2):
think Sao Paolo is well served from the UK. We have both Varig and BA to choose from. That seems sufficient.

Why? the more choice the better. Lets face it with the two in the state their in they have no incentive to lower the price, more competition the better!


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3341 times:

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 15):
My hope is that TAM becomes one of the founders (among Vingin, Emirates, Malaysia, etc) of a new global alliance, because the World needs more than three competing airline groups, even if the fourth group be very weak for a short term.

I dont think this will happen. Malaysian is already very close to Sky and will join soon. As I said, my impression is that TAM will soon join OW.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 18):
as LHR is a top route for RG (Top 5), i can`t see RG alowing JJ strong competition. I believe RG will try to run the additional frequencies, even with 767-300ER !

In my opinion RG needs first to improve its service. It will do nothing rather than hurt the airline to increase flights to LHR if you dont even have a good product.

See the case of CDG. Although TAM has enter the CDG market (now with 2 daily flights), RG still keeps running one daily flight. I dont think RG will increase its service to LHR. At least RG has a partner in LHR (BMI).

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 19):
As people might remember the current GRU-LHR flight continues to CPH. By dropping the tag CPH flight Varig end up with two pairs of slots that could be used for LHR-Brazil flights

Yes, but the timing is not good. As mentioned above slots are timed.

Quoting DaddiesSecret (Reply 20):
Why? the more choice the better.

As mentioned above, I think there is room for more flights between the UK and Brazil. Currently there are 14 weekly flights, which is much less than LIS (58 weekly flights), CDG (38 weekly flights), FRA (31 weekly flights), and MAD (24 weekly flights).

Rgs,


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3275 times:
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Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 21):
In my opinion RG needs first to improve its service. It will do nothing rather than hurt the airline to increase flights to LHR if you dont even have a good product.

Agree with you, but RG has the fact that they are the first option from people in the north/northeast/south for connections. RG loads for LHR are impressive, always full and overbooked.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 21):
See the case of CDG. Although TAM has enter the CDG market (now with 2 daily flights), RG still keeps running one daily flight. I dont think RG will increase its service to LHR. At least RG has a partner in LHR (BMI).

RG tried to block JJ advance adding a 3x week GIG-CDG service with 767-300ER. Service was good, loads and yields are good, but due to the lack of aircraft, RG has stoped the service. Six months after, JJ requested the 3 RG frequencies and added to its GRU-CDG service. There are rumors that RG is obtaining new planes (at lease 1 777-200 and 1 767-300), and also, with money in cash, they can put back to service the grounded widebody fleet (2 777-200 , VRA and VRD, and 1 MD-11).

Lets see the future developments

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32799 posts, RR: 71
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3219 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 19):
Technically Varig does hold enough slots to operate LHR-GRU double daily.
As people might remember the current GRU-LHR flight continues to CPH. By dropping the tag CPH flight Varig end up with two pairs of slots that could be used for LHR-Brazil flights.

Slots cannot at LHR cannot be used whenever an airline pleases. If they could schedule the flights to land/take off at the same designated take off/landing times that the CPH tag operates or do some rescheduling using their other slots, then they could do it, but it might prove challenging.



a.
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25438 posts, RR: 49
Reply 24, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3204 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 23):
Slots cannot at LHR cannot be used whenever an airline pleases. If they could schedule the flights to land/take off at the same designated take off/landing times that the CPH tag operates or do some rescheduling using their other slots, then they could do it, but it might prove challenging.



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 21):

Yes, but the timing is not good. As mentioned above slots are timed.

Right, that is why I mentioned slot trading. Certainly not an impossible task particularly amongst Star members. BD/LH/SK have swapped quite frequently in the last few years with long haul members of the alliance. In particular Varigs current 1pm'ish slot holding being used for LHR-CPH is a quite valuable one if released for something else which might be better timed for Brazil-LHR services
With a little effort no an impossible task at all.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
25 Hardiwv : Interesting point. If RG trades its slots CPH-LHR-CPH it could increase frequencies GRU-LHR from 7 to 10 weekly. You have a point here. Maybe the 3 e
26 2travel2know : Any chance they could fly GRU-SSA-LGW/STN/LTN ? No leisure/cargo market between SSA and the UK?
27 Hardiwv : Thompson-UK started this week a weekly service B763 LGW-NAT (regular charter flight). I dont think RG, TAM or VS would enter any other market than LH
28 LipeGIG : Even with the huge number of charters to/from Brazilian Northeast, it`s a region without strong connections, so, i agree with Hardi, it will be hard
29 Hardiwv : Northeast Brazil is a difficul market, because yields are low and connections not so attractive, so scheduled airlines concentrate on GIG and GRU. As
30 LipeGIG : In fact, a little correction, it's REC-CDG. Hardi, i see DL and AA fighting for the routes to the Northeast (if authorized). Delta is looking for int
31 Hardiwv : AA has the upper hand because of the MIA hub and the partnership with TAM. I'm sceptical about DL operating in other Brazilian markets than GRU or GI
32 Commavia : Delta doesn't stand a chance. American will handily annihilate them on these routes.
33 Hardiwv : Agree with you. Rgs,
34 LipeGIG : Guys, i doubt AA to obtain all of any available additional frequency. Agree that MIA is the perfect hub but remember, Brazilians will be not granted
35 MAH4546 : Most likely a new US-Brazil bilatteral, like with the Portugal-Brazil billateral, will be Open Skies outside of GIG/GRU, so it isn't an issue. Also,
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