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Airbus Offer A350 For $85 Million  
User currently offlineAeroPiggot From United States of America, joined May 2005, 283 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 11134 times:

This is an interesting article; it states that internal Boeing documents shows that Airbus has offered the A350 at about half the list price on their web site. How can the 787 compete with that sort of bargaining? It also show that Leahy and friend are prepared to do everything they can to blunt the 787 sales success. At those prices the Qantas and Singapore sales campaigns should be very interesting indeed.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...pace/2002588498_boeingsales28.html


A scientist discovers that which exists, an engineer creates that which never was.
129 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJetMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 11091 times:

Quoting AeroPiggot (Thread starter):
This is an interesting article; it states that internal Boeing documents shows that Airbus has offered the A350 at about half the list price on their web site.

Well, Boeing once also said there wouldn't be a market for an aircraft such as the A320...  scratchchin 

Quoting AeroPiggot (Thread starter):
How can the 787 compete with that sort of bargaining? It also show that Leahy and friend are prepared to do everything they can to blunt the 787 sales success.

Don't base all your conclusions on one questionable source.


Regards,
JM


User currently offlineAither From South Korea, joined Oct 2004, 854 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 11071 times:

Quoting AeroPiggot (Thread starter):
It also show that Leahy and friend are prepared to do everything they can to blunt the 787 sales success

No you're kidding !



Never trust the obvious
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6774 posts, RR: 35
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 11057 times:

And cue Airbus VS Boeing thread in 3, 2, 1....  Wink

User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3159 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 11046 times:

Well, the Seattle Times has a strong pro-Boeing feeling, so I would not take every word of them as a fact.

How the 787 can compete with that sort of bargaining, well, by offering the same discounts.

As you know, the prices paid by the airlines are effectively almost kept secret. The only thing that is not secret is that nobody pays the list price.

There are always rumours, some of them stronger than others, indicating that:

ANA paid about half the list price for it's 787s
Ryanair paid about half the list price for it's 737NGs
NW paid far below list price for its 787s
Air Canada got a great deal on it's 787/777 deal

And the same goes for Airbus, they offered extremely good deals for:

JetBlue's A320s
easyJet's A319s
All Emirates airplanes
Qatar's A350s

It is very normal for a new model, when you are a launch customer ordering in a large quantity. Often, launch customers pay less but also get less guaranties, like little compensation when the delivery is delayed. And they will also still have to see about reliability, fuel burn. Depending on how all these factors are calculated, prices can be lower.

By the way, the higher your list price is, the more you can 'discount'. The list price for the 787-8 is $125 - $135 Million. Not too much higher than the $85 million mentioned.


User currently offlineSlarty From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 342 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 11037 times:

Already being discussed in:

Boeing To Sell Up To 965 Jets In 05 (by N1786b Oct 28 2005 in Civil Aviation)


User currently offlineLemurs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1439 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 11002 times:

Quoting Joost (Reply 4):
Well, the Seattle Times has a strong pro-Boeing feeling, so I would not take every word of them as a fact.

That's an assumption many people make here on A.net, both in the US and abroad. It's just not backed up by the evidence. They have a dedicated aviation desk to follow Boeing around, since they're so important to the local economy. That doesn't make them a cheerleader though. They've been one of Boeing's harshest critics over the years, and have turned up a lot of dirty laundry through investigative reporting. While they're not Anti-Boeing, calling them Pro-Boeing is also a big distortion. Just because they're located here does not make them a PR publication for Boeing.

[Edit: Changed 'but' to 'both'...makes a lot more sense this way. ]

[Edited 2005-10-28 19:20:38]


There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
User currently offlinePlaneDane From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10975 times:

Quoting Joost (Reply 4):
Well, the Seattle Times has a strong pro-Boeing feeling, so I would not take every word of them as a fact.

You're wrong yet again, Joost!!

The Seattle Times is the last newspaper anyone with even half a brain would call pro-Boeing! Where did you get this crap?!!

Ask anyone who works for Boeing and they'll tell you that there is no harsher critic anywhere of Boeing than that publication. Unlike where you live, the media, industry and government are usually at odds with each other here in the U.S.

And also unlike where you live, the average American couldn't care less what happens to Boeing. If the company were to disappear tomorrow, most people here in the U.S. wouldn't know the difference. So, to attempt to portray a news source as some sort of cheerleader for a private industry in my country really shows your ignorance.

Your assertion is truly pathetic.

[Edited 2005-10-28 19:24:06]

User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10914 times:

Both Boeing & Airbus hand out discounts/heavy discounts depending on the size of the order/customer.

As for the Seattle Times, that is not exactly a Boeing friendly newspaper.....



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User currently offlineAeroPiggot From United States of America, joined May 2005, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10889 times:

Quote:
Slarty: Already being discussed in:

Thanks for pointing that out, I did not see that post, I would refer our discussions over to that forum.

Please see Boeing To Sell Up To 965 Jets In 05 (by N1786b Oct 28 2005 in Civil Aviation)
for further discussions.

Thanks.



A scientist discovers that which exists, an engineer creates that which never was.
User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4312 posts, RR: 29
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10849 times:

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 1):
Well, Boeing once also said there wouldn't be a market for an aircraft such as the A320...

Yes, and I remember vividly when Airbus once claimed that the 737 "is toast". I also remember not too long ago Airbus claiming that the 787 is a desperate move by Boeing and that 330 will compete effectively with just new engines hung on the wings.

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 7):
Ask anyone who works for Boeing and they'll tell you that there is no harsher critic anywhere of Boeing than that publication.

One reason they are harsh is because Boeing is in their own backyard. Given the "investigative reporting" nature of U.S. media, Boeing makes an easy and cheap target to look at for potential scandals.



I'm not a racist...I hate Biden, too.
User currently offlineFlyingHippo From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 680 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10831 times:

I haven't had many chances to get involved in the negotiations between airlines and airplane manufacturers, however, I do get a chance to see some of the numbers offered... (Great to have friends in the finance industry:-p)

Both Airbus and Boeing offers about a 35-45% discount off listed prices, that's pretty much standard. Ofcourse, the size and type of the order will effect how much discount is given, however, hearing Airbus offering $85 million for A350 seems about right.

When AC ordered 773ERs, Boeing offered in a ball park of ~40% discount. (Ofcourse, I cannot reveal my source, apologize in advance for those who ask)


User currently offlineJetMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10795 times:

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 10):
Yes, and I remember vividly when Airbus once claimed that the 737 "is toast". I also remember not too long ago Airbus claiming that the 787 is a desperate move by Boeing and that 330 will compete effectively with just new engines hung on the wings.

I know, but I simply tried to point out one shouldn't take too serious one manufacturer's statements about its rival.


Regards,
JM


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8164 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10791 times:

It may not be true, but you can be sure that CEOs at airlines buying or looking at the 350 will be asking for the $85m price - especially if their pricing is significantly higher.

Right now profit doesn't matter for the 350 - they have to have sales of the 350 because they have to have the 350 flying in order to compete long term with the 787. Boeing could walk away from the 380 market, but Airbus can't walk away from this market.


User currently offlineJetMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10753 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
It may not be true, but you can be sure that CEOs at airlines buying or looking at the 350 will be asking for the $85m price - especially if their pricing is significantly higher.

That's an interesting thought. It's all about tactics. Theoretically that statement could have been made also in order to please shareholders after a lost deal - probably a failed attempt to sell B787s to Emirates. Well, that's just a theory - remember.


Regards,
JM


User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10741 times:

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 1):
Quoting AeroPiggot (Thread starter):
This is an interesting article; it states that internal Boeing documents shows that Airbus has offered the A350 at about half the list price on their web site.

Well, Boeing once also said there wouldn't be a market for an aircraft such as the A320...

Jetmaster

Very true both sides have made comments, that in hindsight look very silly. Here are a couple of Airbus comments:

The "dream machine," or whatever it's called.... it's a PR man's dream, but an engineer's nightmare. (Leahy 6/03)

The 7E7 is a "Chinese Copy (Forgeard 5/04)



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User currently offlineA350 From Germany, joined Nov 2004, 1100 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10729 times:

Quoting AeroPiggot (Thread starter):
This is an interesting article; it states that internal Boeing documents shows that Airbus has offered the A350 at about half the list price on their web site

Thanks a lot for the hint! I have directly used this unique opportunity and ordered my personal A350 for 85 M$ at their online-shop  hyper 

A350



Photography - the art of observing, not the art of arranging
User currently offlinePlaneDane From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10695 times:

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 11):
Both Airbus and Boeing offers about a 35-45% discount off listed prices, that's pretty much standard. Ofcourse, the size and type of the order will effect how much discount is given, however, hearing Airbus offering $85 million for A350 seems about right.

When AC ordered 773ERs, Boeing offered in a ball park of ~40% discount. (Ofcourse, I cannot reveal my source, apologize in advance for those who ask)

Thanks for the info, FlyingHippo.

We, as consumers, don't get to buy automobiles, homes or refrigerators at up to 45% off, do we? The pricing strategies that Boeing and Airbus use just seem very strange to me.


User currently offlinePlaneDane From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10685 times:

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 11):
Both Airbus and Boeing offers about a 35-45% discount off listed prices, that's pretty much standard. Ofcourse, the size and type of the order will effect how much discount is given, however, hearing Airbus offering $85 million for A350 seems about right.

When AC ordered 773ERs, Boeing offered in a ball park of ~40% discount. (Ofcourse, I cannot reveal my source, apologize in advance for those who ask)

Thanks for the info, FlyingHippo.

We, as consumers, don't get to buy automobiles, homes or refrigerators at 35-45% off, do we? The pricing strategies that Boeing and Airbus use just seem very strange to me.


User currently offlineJetMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10660 times:

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 15):
Very true both sides have made comments, that in hindsight look very silly. Here are a couple of Airbus comments:

The "dream machine," or whatever it's called.... it's a PR man's dream, but an engineer's nightmare. (Leahy 6/03)

The 7E7 is a "Chinese Copy (Forgeard 5/04)

I know these comments and they were just silly...


Regards,
JM


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24973 posts, RR: 85
Reply 20, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 10621 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting A350 (Reply 16):
Thanks a lot for the hint! I have directly used this unique opportunity and ordered my personal A350 for 85 M$ at their online-shop

You paid too much. According to this website, you could get a 787 for $60 million.

http://www.answers.com/topic/boeing-787

 Smile

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 10548 times:

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 17):
We, as consumers, don't get to buy automobiles, homes or refrigerators at up to 45% off, do we? The pricing strategies that Boeing and Airbus use just seem very strange to me.

Oh c'mon, no pays the full sticker price for an automobile, there are always dealer discounts, special discounts, this weekend only special discounts....

Pricing complexities for the automobile are strange as well, so much so, that the cost to produce a car is kept very secret....



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User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6849 posts, RR: 63
Reply 22, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 10538 times:

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 10):
I remember vividly when Airbus once claimed that the 737 "is toast".

Well, the 737 that Boeing initially pitched against the A320 IS "toast". It was replaced by the 737NG. Would that have happened without Airbus running away with orders Boeing expected to win?


User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5005 posts, RR: 44
Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 10450 times:

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 7):
The Seattle Times is the last newspaper anyone with even half a brain would call pro-Boeing! Where did you get this crap?!!

Were the personal insults really necessary?

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 7):
Unlike where you live, the media, industry and government are usually at odds with each other here in the U.S.

So wait... first you slam someone for making assumptions based on what we could call prejudice, and then, in the same damn post, you write this???

Pot, meet kettle!

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 11):
Both Airbus and Boeing offers about a 35-45% discount off listed prices, that's pretty much standard.

Actually, on average planes are sold at about 20% below list price (that's the average for Airbus, I'm sure Boeing's is similar), though higher discounts are of course given to strategically important customers and launch customers.


User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24899 posts, RR: 56
Reply 24, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 10423 times:

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 24):
Pot, meet kettle!

You mean: Pot, Kettle, Black  Wink



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
25 Gigneil : Consumer and business to business markets are completely different. I work in technology sales, and discounts of this magnitude are common and part o
26 RedFlyer : True, but then the "toast" comment was made by the world-famous John Leahy in 1994, after Boeing had launched the NG and in response to Boeing's NG m
27 Post contains images Thorben : You think so? These figures seem a little too big to me. I read that even EasyJet got "only" 30% when they ordered 120 A319. FR is supposed to have g
28 N79969 : Presumably with engines. The paper is respected and credible although you elect to deride it as "propaganda" because you do not like the content. As
29 PlaneDane : No they weren't. I apologized directly to Joost for this and suggested deletion of my own post. If you had read what I posted here more carefully, yo
30 Galapagapop : Why is forecasting sales being compared and used to usurp creditability of a finding on numbers? Forecasts are broad and can easily be over or under f
31 Antares : Well $85 million for an A350 isn't as big a bargain as the $90 million offered to and accepted by Qantas for its 744 ERs in 2000. That's business. Ant
32 Post contains images Slarty : I guess in 2004, they weren't really trying to sell much into China?
33 TaromA380 : How dares Airbus make discounts ? Shame ! It's obvious they are trying to hurt Boeing. I suggest a preventive US strike on TLS factory. :D
34 N908AW : Bravo! Source please? The A320 market is precisely the one Boeing entered the far superior 737 in.
35 AeroPiggot : No one is saying that you shouldn't give discounts, but Airbus seems to give massive discounts consistently, in an attempt to win market share. I mea
36 Gigneil : The "far superior" 737? I think the fact the A320 backlog is longer than the 737 can contest that fact. N
37 Post contains images Scorpio : Hmmm... Been a bit too hasty there. Where's my portion of crow? So you take the ones Airbus said about Boeing at face value, but the ones Boeing said
38 RedFlyer : I'd be careful with that comment. Do you realize Boeing has thus far this year racked up more 737 sales alone than Airbus' entire product line? I'm n
39 Scorpio : As I said before, Airbus' average discounts aren't deeper than Boeing's, around 20%. Even if it were, they'd be able to afford it, as their profit ma
40 RedFlyer : I have to agree; I think the number is off by some US$100 million because I thought the number that was tossed around was US$190 million. (Which is s
41 MidnightMike : Boeing made a comment like that quite some time ago, it may prove difficult to find a link.
42 Art : Sorry to refer to the A380 but there has been much handwringing on a.net over Airbus selling the A380 (allegedly) to some launch customers at a 47%+
43 Post contains links and images AeroPiggot : Ok here is some information I found on the A380 launch prices, 90 million to 100 million might have been on the low side, but no far from the actual f
44 Manni : US$ 150 million was roughly € 175 million at that time. US$ 295 million is about € 225 million now.
45 NAV20 : It looks as if Airbus is following the same 'strategy' with the A350 as they employed for the A380 - do whatever it takes to get orders on the books,
46 TrevD : Wishful thinking again Scorpio !! It's well known in the finance community that Airbus isn't trying hard until they get to about 50% off...( cite Ray
47 Antares : NAV20, Can't understand why buying one automatically excludes the other. I mean, what about CX and EK, two of the world's most profitable carriers, mu
48 Mariner : EADS make excellent profits, and 80% of those profits come from Airbus. If your figures were even halfway true (theyre not), then either: (i) how cou
49 Post contains images NAV20 : I agree, Antares, backing both horses is an option; but problems funding A350 development/production could still leave an airline short of its planne
50 Antares : NAV20, Saw that and had a chuckle. You touch on a managment issue of some importance to both projects. The A350 is far less diffuse than the 787...but
51 Thorben : " target=_blank>http://www.travelbiz.com.au/articles...8.asp Just a couple of lines from that link: That sounds already great. So it's mainly based on
52 NAV20 : Actually no, Thorben. The whole point of the Gellman Report was that the 1992 Agreement on 'launch aid' specified that a Critical Project Appraisal s
53 Post contains images Mariner : But (a) there is no actual, factual evidence of excessive discounting and (b) the profits have not been reduced, at least so far. If we use that nons
54 Post contains images Astuteman : And to put it into context, Break-even at that time was c$150m, against a list (at that time) of $250m. (a profit of $40m on an A380? - OMG! ) That s
55 Thorben : If Boeing is so sure about that, then they should complain at the appropriate place. If I understand it right, it is about an EU-US agreement, so it
56 Adria : It doesn't matter on what side the newspaper is.......is has its "information" from a "internal" Boeing document......so that's why this is useless i
57 NAV20 : Yes. From the Preface:- "Under the terms of a 1992 agreement between the United States and the European Union, in order to qualify for “state aid
58 Scorpio : Umm... no. Fact. Straight from EADS' financial reports. Then the finance community 'knows' wrong, doesn't it?
59 Post contains images TaromA380 : I see. But here on A.net we are rambling in the night "I hear that they sold ..." "I am sure they did that ..." "It seems that ...". And if ever one
60 Ruscoe : The thing to remember is that the most revolutionary part of the 787 program is the method of manufacture. This is where the greatest risk lies in the
61 Post contains images LifelinerOne : Heard, heard... We all heard something on Airbus or Boeing discounting their plances. Unless someone shows me the invoice, it's all speculation. Chee
62 Art : OK, no problem. Report produced is a problem, though. Gellman: cost of producing aircraft proportional to weight (an aircraft weighing 2x costs twice
63 NAV20 : Gellman estimated the (2004) cost of the A380 at $199.7M., Art. Given that the 'sticker price' is now around $290M., it looks as if they were certainl
64 Abba : Isn't that another way of saying "competition"? Giving the best product at the lowest prize? Abba
65 Abba : Well just note that sometimes the strongest and most outspoken critics of e.g. a football team is their most loyal fans.... (Without saying anything
66 Abba : I love it - That is what makes Airbus such a great company. (And - don't tell anybody!! - that is also what makes Boeing a great company!) In other w
67 NumberTwelve : When I see the dreamliner link, I am wondering where the dolphin 787 is. How innovative, etc. So when there are people saying that the 350 is same as
68 Scorpio : NumberTwelve, Please don't start that crap again. It's getting old, and not what this thread is about.
69 NumberTwelve : Antares, first of all: I have to know where all the subsidaries my government pays to Airbus, will go. And there is no difference between an old plan
70 Post contains images QFA001 : FWIW, my first reaction was that $85m is good value for Airbus. In recent times, they've been selling A330s for $70m. So, if they can sell A350s at $
71 TrevD : Quite simply actually. By selling on variable cost only it's fairly Easy (no pun intended) to make a profit on a A319 when you don't have to pay for
72 TrevD : You mean the same financial reports showing a growing debt obligation, now to the tune of $20B Euros. Now this one is classic. If you have any experi
73 Post contains images Scorpio : Oh man, not this tripe again FWIW, A320 development costs have been completely recovered, loans have been completely paid back, and Airbus has even b
74 Atmx2000 : A $15 million increase doesn't seem to be particularly good given the large sum of money Airbus is investing in the A350, unless they expect producti
75 Mariner : Then all one can say is that since JeBlue and Frontier (documented) are paying close to $40 million per plane, you have to wonder why two American co
76 Astuteman : What, all of them? Why on earth would Airbus need to do that? A small percentage, maybe........ It's true that it does happen occasionally, but trust
77 TrevD : 1. Frontier and JetBlue are not paying close to $40M and are, in fact closer to the $19M number, but I appreciate not everyone on this board has indu
78 Mariner : That's interesting. Frontier pays a 10% deposit, subsequently borrows $24 million for ten years with a balloon payment of $10 million at the end of t
79 Astuteman : Gellman also predicted that EVERY single one of those 496 A380's would be sold at a loss (to quote Gellman specifically:- Sale prices:- 1st 50:- $144
80 GBan : How often do you buy 10 automobiles, homes or refrigerators in one order?
81 PlaneDane : You do make a good point. I failed to consider the quantity aspect of airliner purchases.
82 Post contains images QFA001 : You got me. I don't know about every sale. However, I have followed the specifics of a number of sales. I should have said, "Airbus has been selling
83 Iwok : Tarom, I would love to read your "poetic" nuk'em post again, but I cannot find it anywhere. If you were able to look back to my post which replied to
84 Shenzhen : I believe when Boeing first launched the 787, they said the list price would be around the same as a 767, or 120 million. It was also stated (not by B
85 Mariner : Both JetBlue and Frontier signed subsequent contracts - after the Easyjet order with Airbus and after the Ryanair order with Boeing. Any "new discoun
86 Shenzhen : Each and every contract is different. If Indian Airlines wanted simulators/spares/additional training/a new hanger/ they can all be included in the p
87 Shenzhen : Once a contract is signed... its a done deal, nobody will revist the price. However, if JetBlue and Frontier came back to Airbus and asked why they a
88 Mariner : I am sure that everything is a negotation. In at least one case, I know this to be true, but the result was somewhat different from what you are sayi
89 Shenzhen : Mariner, As I stated before, the original contracts signed with JetBlue would not be changed. If Jetblue were negotiating a new batch of airplanes, th
90 Mariner : Why not? I'm aware of a number of times when signed contracts have been renegotiated. I have renogotiated signed contracts. Yes, they are. And, just
91 Post contains images Shenzhen : There are many ways to compensate for damage, but rarely are they discounts to the price, once a contract has been signed. The contract states it wil
92 Mariner : In this particular case, I wasn't talking about renegotiation - although see my post #90 above. I was talking about getting the discount on subsequen
93 Shenzhen : If I were to guess, I would say it was probably close to 40 percent off list, if they were in a heated battle Embraer. But let us not forget that Jet
94 Astuteman : Thanks for the responses QFA001. On reflection, my post was wholly incorrect, and would in fact lead me to contradicting myself somewhere down the li
95 Shenzhen : I don't believe Airbus has ever had a 10 percent margin. Probably not even a 10 percent margin before taxes and interest either. They do talk about i
96 Astuteman : You are quite right - up to the end of 2004. Airbus margin in 1st 1/2 2005 was 12.8%, with c12% forecast for year end. Of course, you are also right
97 Shenzhen : So, Take away interest on 4 - 5 billion (guess), then say 30+ odd percent taxes... not even close to 10 percent.
98 Post contains links NAV20 : Yes EBIT ('Earnings Before Interest and Tax') can be quite misleading. In actual fact, after tax etc., EADS (which includes Airbus) made a net proft o
99 Astuteman : Bit more complex than that - try interest on c$10Bn debt, but offset by similar interest on $9Bn cash for a net effect of c $100m PA interest bill. T
100 Post contains images Mariner : And I thought we were discussing a constant - inflation adjusted dollars. Silly old me. Never underestimate the changing ground rules here on a.net.
101 Thorben : EBIT and even more EBITDA are not very good sources, IMHO. It's better to give the real final result and declare extraordinary costs/gains, if you ha
102 Shenzhen : I thought we were talking about a list price on X date compared to what is actually borrowed against the airplane at some date in the future. The dol
103 Mariner : I believe that some aircratft have been discounted 30%. I do not believe it to be "standard", although I accept, of course, that it may be true of yo
104 Shenzhen : I'm not using any method of accounting. I was merely trying to point out that airplane prices are escalated via an inflation index on a monthly basis
105 Mariner : Sorry, that is not even remotely close to what I said. cheers mariner
106 NAV20 : A misunderstanding there, Thorben. The 'earnings per share' figures are the annual earnings divided by the total number of shares issued by the compa
107 Shenzhen : What you say and what you type seem to be different. Anyway.....
108 Post contains links Thorben : I think I understood it that far. I don't think it is that simple. The whole rate of return would also have to include the value the share has gained
109 Post contains links NAV20 : We're not far apart, Thorben. Only thing is, it's important to distinguish between the rate of return on an investment (basically the profits which ar
110 Thorben : I thank Heaven. I know. IMHO distributed profits + capital gains/losses are the whole return. According to German accounting laws you have do devalue
111 Mariner : What I type and what you read seem to be different. cheers mariner
112 Post contains images QFA001 : I believe that we are on the same page. IMHO, though, the very high discount deals are becoming more prominent (I deliberately avoided the word 'norm
113 NAV20 : Doesn't follow, Thorben, short of them organising a 'price ring'. Classical economic theory holds that, in a doupoly, both firms will cut prices in t
114 Post contains links TrevD : Mariner - your comparing apples and oranges. The individual financings you're seeing in their 10-Q's and 10-K's have nothing to do with the net price
115 Shenzhen : Straight from Frontiers 10-K provided by the link above.... As of March 31, 2005, we have commitments of approximately $524 million to purchase 13 add
116 Mariner : I'm sorry - I can't see anywhere in that SEC filing which suggests that Frontier is paying anywhere close to the $19 million you claimed. I am complet
117 TrevD : That's the point... No where in a 10-K will they ever admit how much they paid for the a/c. The only thing they are obligated to report is how much t
118 Mariner : You can slice it whichever way you like, but the figures originally came from Sam Addoms, who was the CEO at the time of the first Airbus deal. Every
119 Shenzhen : 10K quote We have executed the term sheet for the debt financing for two of our A319 aircraft scheduled for delivery from Airbus in June and July 200
120 Astuteman : No, 12% is A's forecast Op. Profit AFTER R+D expenditure for 2005. R+D is forecast around 8% of turnover. In other words, GROSS profit pre-R+D is for
121 Shenzhen : EADS had a net margin of 3 percent in 2004 and a net margin of 1 percent in 2003.
122 ETStar : Especially one source whose readership majority is composed of Boeing employees![Edited 2005-11-02 09:00:43]
123 Astuteman : Or to put it a bit more in context, Airbus Operating Profit in 2004 AFTER 8.5% R+D expenditure was 9.5%. EADS EBIT in 2004 was 7.7%, EADS other divis
124 Thorben : OK, I admit my knowledge in classic (and neo-classic) economic theory is limited. Those classes I passed somewhen I forgot most of it afterwards. To
125 Astuteman : Won't disagree with that. AFAIK, Airbus on its own this year is operating somewhere around what you'd expect of a large manufacturing company (12% -
126 Post contains links NAV20 : Astuteman - don't forget that 20% of the Airbus Division's profits are paid straight to British Aerospace as part-owners. I should offer my thanks to
127 Astuteman : Agree, particularly as frames being delivered today were ordered during a vicious downturn in the airliner market post 9/11.......
128 TrevD : Thanks Shenzhen...I truly appreciate your comment....also applaud your pointing to the real facts here. w/regards, Trev
129 Thorben : OK, so EADS is making more money with Airbus, less with it's military products. Boeing makes more with the military, less with commercial planes. I t
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