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Are The "Tenerife" Pan Am Crew Still Living  
User currently offlineXms3200 From Sweden, joined Apr 2005, 108 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 82080 times:
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On Mar. 25th 1977, two 747's crashed into each other in
Tenerife killing approx. 583 people. I was wondering if the Pan Am pilots are still living, or even the cabin crew. The Pan Am captain's name was Victor Grubbs.

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDogfighter2111 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1968 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 82050 times:

There is one female cabin crew member in her 50's that are still alive. There are still a few PAX alive aswell.

Thanks
Mike


User currently offlineIberiadc852 From Spain, joined May 2005, 270 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 82024 times:

The co-pilot is still living. The pilot (Victor Grubbs) and the flight engineer have already died. In www.tenerifecrash.com there is a lot of information about all that. In case you don't find it in the proper webpage you will find it in the video they sell in it The editor is the co-pilot himself, Robert Bragg.


variety is the spice of life; that's what made the "old times" so good
User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3347 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 81991 times:

One flight attendant from the flight was featured in a magazine of some sort. She threw fifty some passengers out of a door on a broken arm and assisted relief crews before going to a hospital herself.

Oddly enough, shortly before Christmas of 1988, a college came to her and asked her to switch trips. She had to refuse because of a family engagement. Turns out the trip included flight 103 as a segment. Amazing she averted death on-duty twice in a few years.

AAndrew


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 81973 times:

I just read Robert Bragg's transcript, and it is shockingly poorly written!

Interesting, but just riddled with errors!


User currently offlineIberiadc852 From Spain, joined May 2005, 270 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 81963 times:

In that webpage there is a not very well know photo of the two planes parked at Tenerife's ramp less than an hour before the crash. It is slightly different version of a better known one, which has already been published here, but I think this one is better. Besides, in this one you can also see at the bottom right of the photo a SATA DC-8 backtracking in the same way the two 747 did, which was one of the last airplanes that took off before the crash, and which was parked just in front of the two Boeings.


variety is the spice of life; that's what made the "old times" so good
User currently offlineParisien From France, joined Dec 2000, 821 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 81944 times:

saw a documentary of it on a french tv recently (cant remember the channel though). If that was the video, it was very interesting. There were so many "if only"s as I guess common to catastrophic events. The salient if onlys I remember from the film: no missing pax for KL so that it could have left on time (ealier); enough space for PA to move past KL to reach the runway etc. etc. the fog moved in very fast it seems....

User currently offlineDeC From Greece, joined Aug 2005, 616 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 81932 times:

Are you talking about this incident?

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19770327-1
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19770327-0

it was March the 27th, 1977 and not in the 25th



DEC
User currently offlineFanofjets From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1964 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 81786 times:

Thanks for the Web site - some interesting stuff here. However, not to be picky, but several of the crash and aftermat pictures are of the LH 747-130 that crashed on takeoff in Nairobi, Kenya, on November 20, 1974:

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19741120-0



The aeroplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
User currently offlineRDYNYC From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 65 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 81711 times:

Yes, the Purser is still alive and well working for United!

User currently offlineRG828 From Brazil, joined Jan 2004, 582 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 81503 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 4):
I just read Robert Bragg's transcript, and it is shockingly poorly written!

Interesting, but just riddled with errors!

What's hilarious is that he did'nt even know where the Canary Islands were when he bid the charter.

Not good considering they were dubbed "The World's most experienced airline!"



I dont know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone
User currently offlineLevg79 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 994 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 81378 times:

Quoting RG828 (Reply 10):
What's hilarious is that he did'nt even know where the Canary Islands were when he bid the charter.

Not good considering they were dubbed "The World's most experienced airline!"

Not only that, but he says that 747 has about 16 wheels. Wouldn't the 747 co-pilot know that it actually has 18?

Leo.



A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
User currently offlineTG992 From New Zealand, joined Jan 2001, 2910 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 81332 times:

Quoting RG828 (Reply 10):

What's hilarious is that he did'nt even know where the Canary Islands were when he bid the charter.

Not good considering they were dubbed "The World's most experienced airline!"

I didn't realise one of the necessary qualifications for being a Pan Am pilot was knowing the location of every island in the world.

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 11):
Not only that, but he says that 747 has about 16 wheels. Wouldn't the 747 co-pilot know that it actually has 18?

I'd assume he was referring to the main gear wheels, not including the nosewheels.

Cut the guy some slack, guys.. his toenail clippings are probably more knowledgable about the 747 than any of us will ever be.



-
User currently offlineLevg79 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 994 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 81291 times:

Quoting TG992 (Reply 12):
Cut the guy some slack, guys.. his toenail clippings are probably more knowledgable about the 747 than any of us will ever be.

I know, I know. I just thought it was kind of weird when he referred to it as a plane with "about 16 wheels". I never meant it as an insult to Mr. Bragg.

Leo.



A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
User currently offlineRG828 From Brazil, joined Jan 2004, 582 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 81282 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Quoting TG992 (Reply 12):
Quoting RG828 (Reply 10):

What's hilarious is that he did'nt even know where the Canary Islands were when he bid the charter.

Not good considering they were dubbed "The World's most experienced airline!"

I didn't realise one of the necessary qualifications for being a Pan Am pilot was knowing the location of every island in the world.

Oh come on, PAA flew EVERYWHERE back then for christsakes! You'd think he would have heard of those Islands off the coast of Africa!



I dont know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone
User currently offlineKensukeAida From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 217 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 81226 times:

These transcripts are clearly very rough drafts that were just transcribed from an audio souce. So, if it puts Mr. Briggs in a false light it's really not his fault. I doubt any one of us could do a flawless interview.

- John


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 16, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 81172 times:

Quoting KensukeAida (Reply 15):
These transcripts are clearly very rough drafts that were just transcribed from an audio souce.

I'm sure that's absolutely right. Most of us would sound pretty incoherent if someone just taped our own firsthand descriptions of something. Personally I'm glad they left it that way, rather than editing and 'sanitising' it so it lost most of its impact and meaning.

Iberiad, thanks for posting the link, it is very informative. I knew the basic cause of the accident - the KLM pilot mistaking his ATC clearance for takeoff clearance - but had never understood before how that could have happened, because procedures (and ATC phrasing) are usually so codified and specific. Now that I understand the time pressures that everyone was under - an overcrowded airport, everyone clamouring to get away, the fog coming down - it's easier to understand. Though no less tragic.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinePipoA380 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1594 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 80528 times:
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Hi,

I was going through the images of the webpage, and this image here got me thinkin'. Look at the tail on the photo, doesn't it look a lot like a LH tail? The crash was between a KLM and a Pan Am wasn't it?




It's not about AIRBUS. it's not about BOEING. It's all about the beauty of FLYING.
User currently offlineDogfighter2111 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1968 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 80498 times:

Quoting PipoA380 (Reply 17):

That is an LH crash.

That is not this accident. All of the debris was on the RWY @ Tenerife therefore you would see that on the RWY or close to a lot of other fuselage if it were the KLM/Pan Am accident.

I think that was the LH CV-440 that crashed upon landing at Bremen, but not sure.

Thanks
Mike

[Edited 2005-10-30 10:38:42]

User currently offlinePipoA380 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1594 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 80469 times:
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Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 18):

Why would they put a LH crash picture under the photo gallery of "the crash" on the teneriffe crash webpage?  scratchchin  I don't get it.

Thanks



It's not about AIRBUS. it's not about BOEING. It's all about the beauty of FLYING.
User currently offlineDogfighter2111 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1968 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 80441 times:

Quoting PipoA380 (Reply 19):

A mistake probably, but that is definetly an LH aircraft. It may have been the CV-440 that crashed on approach to Bremen in 1966 or the LH B747 crash at Nairobi in 1974.

Thanks
Mike

[Edited 2005-10-30 10:40:51]

User currently offlinePipoA380 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1594 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 80417 times:
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Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 20):

Okay! Thanks for that info!
Best regards,
Philippe



It's not about AIRBUS. it's not about BOEING. It's all about the beauty of FLYING.
User currently offlineViscount630 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 235 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 80261 times:
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Quoting Aa757first (Reply 3):
One flight attendant from the flight was featured in a magazine of some sort. She threw fifty some passengers out of a door on a broken arm and assisted relief crews before going to a hospital herself.

She (Dorothy Kelly?) is also featured in "Fasten Your Seat Belts", the excellent story of the history of Pan Ams cabin crews. Her description of the accident and what happened afterwards is not only very chilling, it's very moving. She should actually have been working on the upper deck, but an F/A in the lower deck First Class cabin asked to her swap. He, and all the passengers in that cabin, were killed in the collision.

Her actions during the tragedy were incredibly inspiring. In a famous picture of the aftermath, (used by "Time" I think - sorry I don't have a link) she can be seen tending to injured passengers (still unaware of her own broken arm) with the PA 747 still burning nearby. A real credit to her profession.



RIP Dan-Air. Where the Secret was SERVICE.
User currently offlineIberiadc852 From Spain, joined May 2005, 270 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 80105 times:

I also wonder if some other photos , like the following one, for example,

http://www.tenerifecrash.com/gallery/Crash/pages/pic15.htm

are from the 747 LH Nairobi crash, as probably Fanofjets has pointed out.



variety is the spice of life; that's what made the "old times" so good
User currently offlineBHXFAOTIPYYC From Portugal, joined Jun 2005, 1644 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 80034 times:

Not quite to do with the Tenerife crash, but the LH one in NBO.

One of my good clients used to work for Rolls Royce (a/c engine division) at the time, and he had a colleague on that flight. He said that the guy used to count the number of seconds from the moment the plane began its take-off roll to airborne as habit, and this particular day in NBO, he just kept on counting to the point where he knew their was a problem.

LH informed his wife that he had died, so a couple of days later when he regained consiouness in a NBO hospital, he called her. My client said that she was pretty histerical, as she thought he was calling her from "beyond the grave". He had, in fact, switched seats with someone on board.



Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
25 Mika : There are several pics there of a LH 747, most noticable from the blue cheatline on the fuselage. Kind of a bad mistake really to mix those pics up w
26 TheSorcerer : Was this incident at TFN or TFS? The Sorcerer
27 Post contains images B727230 : I would say a large majority of the photos are from the Lufthansa disaster. There are lots of duplicates as well. Even the photo on the first page sho
28 Daron4000 : That's really interesting! Do you know her name or any of the routes she usually flies b/c that would be cool to be on a flight with her.
29 Post contains links and images Dcrusafon : I met Robert Bragg last year in Tenerife Norte (TFN) He came to thanks the hospital and the local government for all the help they received the day of
30 Navigator : TFS was not built in 1977. The reason they built TFS was among other things this crash at Tenerife Los Rodeos Airport, now TFN. The bad safety reputa
31 Panamair : Dorothy Kelly continued to fly for Pan Am after Tenerife and was based out of LHR by the time Pan Am started failing in the early '90s. I'm not certa
32 RDYNYC : Yea, Dorothy Kelly! I flew with her when I was based in LHR with Pan Am. Didn't know if I should state her name here on "Airliners". If you'd like to
33 ACEregular : I was just wondering before this accident, when Tenerife South was not in existance what was the airport code for Los Rodeos, as being the only airpor
34 Viscount630 : It was TCI (as in Tenerife, Canary Islands)
35 ACEregular : I always thought TCI was the collective code for Tenerife like LON is London and NYC is New York, thanks
36 Orion737 : Can anyone tell me the name of the lady who was the tour representative who diembarked at Tenerife instead of staying on the plane and survived? Is sh
37 Iberiadc852 : Actually, at that time, TFS runway was finished, as the works had started in the first seventies. The terminal building was not built, because of sev
38 Ilovenz : I remember seeing Bob Bragg and Dorothy Kelley being interviewed in 1997 for Survival in the Sky, a four-part documentary on airliner safety. I rememb
39 Iberiadc852 : In the official accident reports they say the age of the crew members; I am almost sure captain Grubbs was 57 and captain Van Zanten 50 or 51. But I
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