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345/346 HGW Versions  
User currently offlineA360 From Portugal, joined Jun 2005, 434 posts, RR: 8
Posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8277 times:

I've read in the forum that when airbus starts producing the HGW version, it will be the end of production of the non-HGW versions. Is that true?

For now, none 345HGW have been ordered, so all the 345 on order are non HGW version... but I suppose if an airline orders the 345 now, it will be the hgw version.

As for the 346HGW, it seem that the first one will be delivered in 2006(when in 2006??) to Ethiad.

So... how many non HGW 346's are left to be delivered? I guess the ones for Iberia, SAA and Thai are all non HGW.... but after those will it all be HGW??

The follow on 346 orders by Lufthansa and Virgin are for HGW versions?? I guess so, because those will be delivered after the first HGW versions start to be delivered, right?

So the 346HGW costumers are: Ethiad, Emirates, Lufthansa??, Virgin Atlantic??, Qatar??

70 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTaromA380 From Romania, joined Sep 2005, 334 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8230 times:

And what are the differences (in detail) for the HGW versions ?

Did Airbus promised anything or they just try to improve the A340, in a relaxed manner ?

Is that the last evolution of the A340 series ?


User currently offlineEGNR From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 513 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8223 times:

The last non-HGW A340-500/-600 wings will be produced before the end of this year. All wings produced from Jan 2nd 2006 will be HGW wings.

The first A340-600HGW is msn 715 and this is due to be delivered to Qatar Airways.



7late7, A3latey, Sukhoi Superlate... what's going on?
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 8152 times:

Went to the Airbus website and tried to find info on the HGW versions but didn't have any luck. Can someone help with a link?
Thanks,
Lumberton



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineA360 From Portugal, joined Jun 2005, 434 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 8065 times:

Lumberton... if you check the specs for the 345/346 you will notice there are 2 versions... one of them heavier, with more powerfull engine and longer range (the HGW version).

The values for the HGW version are between parenthesis.

Quoting EGNR (Reply 2):
The last non-HGW A340-500/-600 wings will be produced before the end of this year. All wings produced from Jan 2nd 2006 will be HGW wings.

The first A340-600HGW is msn 715 and this is due to be delivered to Qatar Airways.

Thanks for the info!

Quoting TaromA380 (Reply 1):
And what are the differences (in detail) for the HGW versions ?

Higher MTOW, more powerfull engines (the same engines as the other versions, but delivering more power) and subsequently longer range.
There may be other changes, but I don't know very much about it... just the basic facts.


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 8015 times:

There's a fair number of changes... the spoilers and some other wing devices will be composite now, and there are other varying changes to the structure of the wing to both strengthen and lighten it.

N


User currently offlineTaromA380 From Romania, joined Sep 2005, 334 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 7922 times:

I cannot wait to see the match 772LR vs. 345HGW. That would be the true LR match, each type entering service next year.

And what about the already ordered 345 & 346 for 2006+ ? Automatic conversion to HGW or not ?


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1001 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 7880 times:

Quoting TaromA380 (Reply 6):
I cannot wait to see the match 772LR vs. 345HGW. That would be the true LR match, each type entering service next year.

Not even. While the A346-HGW comes close to matching the 773ER on range, it still falls way short of payload and fuel consumption. The A345-HGW is even less likely to compete with the 772LR:

- The estimated range for the A345-HGW is 9,000 nm. This falls 420 nm short of the existing 772LR.

- The A345-HGW would not match the payload uplift of the 772LR and would require a much larger fuel volume for a given mission. The A345-HGW is still a weight-limited aircraft, whereas the 772LR is restricted by fuel volume.

- Because the 772LR is limited by fuel volume and not take-off weight, Boeing could hypothetically add a fourth cargo fuel tank and push the 772LR well past 9,420 nm. In theory, this aircraft may be capable of Kangaroo Hop Holy Grail: LHR-SYD and SYD-LHR (or much less sexy: SYD-DFW)

The A345 won a fair number of orders because of early availability, but the 772LR has since tied the A345, and could potentially surge past the A345 in the near future. I wouldn't call the A345's future bright...


User currently offlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3606 posts, RR: 66
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 7853 times:

Quoting TaromA380 (Reply 6):
I cannot wait to see the match 772LR vs. 345HGW. That would be the true LR match, each type entering service next year.

And what about the already ordered 345 & 346 for 2006+ ? Automatic conversion to HGW or not ?

Haven't all A345's on order been delivered? Unless someone orders a new A345HGW, none will enter service.



Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
User currently offlineA360 From Portugal, joined Jun 2005, 434 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 7854 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7):
While the A346-HGW comes close to matching the 773ER on range

Close to matching?? The 346HGW has longer range than the 773ER has. 7900nm for the 346HGW vs. 7880nm for the 773ER. Big grin

Those 20 nautic milles make the diference! Lol!


User currently offlineA360 From Portugal, joined Jun 2005, 434 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 7826 times:

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 8):
Haven't all A345's on order been delivered? Unless someone orders a new A345HGW, none will enter service.

Not all... there are 6 left to be delivered... 4 for Thai and 2 for Ethiad I think... or the other way around. And those won't be HGW versions.


User currently offlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3606 posts, RR: 66
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 7795 times:

Quoting A360 (Reply 10):
Not all... there are 6 left to be delivered.

Thanks for the correction.



Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9240 posts, RR: 76
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7761 times:

Quoting A360 (Reply 10):
Not all... there are 6 left to be delivered... 4 for Thai and 2 for Ethiad I think... or the other way around. And those won't be HGW versions.

I thought EK and TG one each, and EY x 4 ?



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineTaromA380 From Romania, joined Sep 2005, 334 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7739 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7):
The A345 won a fair number of orders because of early availability, but the 772LR has since tied the A345, and could potentially surge past the A345 in the near future. I wouldn't call the A345's future bright...

Ok. But we are talking about the A345HGW. In theory, it's an improved A345. In practice, we haven't any performance report, as it's just on paper.

The 772LR is still in certification stage, no performance report either (however the future seems quiet bright, based on the very good performances of the 777-series).

So, wait & see. HGW, but how much HGW ?  Smile


User currently offlineA360 From Portugal, joined Jun 2005, 434 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7726 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 12):
I thought EK and TG one each, and EY x 4 ?

EK has received all it's 10 345's... the last one was delivered on the 29th of September.

There are 6 345's to be delivered... 4 for Ethiad and 2 for Thai. ---->This is valid for the 30th of September 2005.

I'm cheking this in the airbus order/deliveries book.  Wink

Check it out: http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre/ --> Then go to the bottom of the page and download the Exek file.


Regards:
A360


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9240 posts, RR: 76
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7709 times:

Quoting A360 (Reply 14):
EK has received all it's 10 345's... the last one was delivered on the 29th of September.

I thought the 10th EK one msn 694 A6-ERJ has not been delivered, and the third TG one msn 698 HS-TLC was in service as of oct 25.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineFeroze From India, joined Dec 2004, 794 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7697 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 12):
I thought EK and TG one each, and EY x 4 ?



Quoting Zeke (Reply 15):
Quoting A360 (Reply 14):
EK has received all it's 10 345's... the last one was delivered on the 29th of September.

I thought the 10th EK one msn 694 A6-ERJ has not been delivered, and the third TG one msn 698 HS-TLC was in service as of oct 25.

EMIRATES RECEIVES ITS ENTIRE ORDER OF AIRBUS A340-500

Emirates, the Dubai-based international airline equipped with one of the most modern fleets in the world, has received its entire order of Airbus A340-500s with the arrival of its 10th A340-500 aircraft.


http://www.emirates.com/uk/AboutEmir...ews/GN_NewsDetail.asp?yr=2005&St=2

Regards,

Feroze


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 7007 posts, RR: 63
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 7230 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7):
The A345 won a fair number of orders because of early availability, but the 772LR has since tied the A345

Really? Airbus have sold 26 A345s to six customers. Boeing have sold 5 777-200LRs to two customers. I guess you could add in the 9 777-200Fs for two customers to take the total to 14 but that's still just half the A345 total.


User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6530 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 17):
Airbus have sold 26 A345s to six customers. Boeing have sold 5 777-200LRs to two customers.

Some of the T7s for AC, AI or QR might be -200LRs, too. Does anybody know fur sure?

Quoting A360 (Reply 14):
There are 6 345's to be delivered... 4 for Ethiad and 2 for Thai.

Yes, and according to my knowledge none of these are HGW.

Concerning the -600HGW, IIRC only those for EK (20), EY (4) and QR (4) are HGW, the rest not.

Quoting EGNR (Reply 2):
The last non-HGW A340-500/-600 wings will be produced before the end of this year. All wings produced from Jan 2nd 2006 will be HGW wings.

So does this mean, all -600 with those wings will be HGW? Or is this just an improvement?

Quoting EGNR (Reply 2):
The first A340-600HGW is msn 715 and this is due to be delivered to Qatar Airways.

When is that going to happen? I read it was to be delivered in the 2nd half of 2006, on the other hand I've already seen a picture of an almost completely painted msn 710 rolling around at TLS.


User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6485 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 18):
So does this mean, all -600 with those wings will be HGW? Or is this just an improvement?

All future A340-600 models will become standard with the HGW improvements.

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26815 posts, RR: 75
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6468 times:

Quoting TaromA380 (Reply 6):
I cannot wait to see the match 772LR vs. 345HGW. That would be the true LR match, each type entering service next year.

Nothing true about it. The 772LR will still hand the A345HGW its a$$

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7):
(or much less sexy: SYD-DFW)

SYD-DFW is 2000nm below the still air range of the current 772LR, there would be no need for extra tanks. In fact, it could be run with the de-tanked version

Quoting A360 (Reply 9):
7900nm for the 346HGW vs. 7880nm for the 773ER

Given how baddly the A346 missed its targets, lets wait and see if it actually can make 7900nm



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6435 times:

Quoting WINGS (Reply 19):
Quoting Thorben (Reply 18):
So does this mean, all -600 with those wings will be HGW? Or is this just an improvement?


All future A340-600 models will become standard with the HGW improvements.

How much better are they going to be?


User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6429 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 20):
Given how baddly the A346 missed its targets, lets wait and see if it actually can make 7900nm

Hi N1120A,

When you wrote that the A346 baddly missed its target do you know by how much?
Would you be kind enough to show some facts concerning this?

In regards to the A345 did it too miss its target and by how much?

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26815 posts, RR: 75
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6415 times:

Quoting WINGS (Reply 22):
When you wrote that the A346 baddly missed its target do you know by how much?
Would you be kind enough to show some facts concerning this?

The A346 was supposed to have 8000nm range, which it didn't. Additionally, the wings came in heavier that advertised, much to the chagrin of Cathay Pacific which has not been happy with the fuel burn



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineTaromA380 From Romania, joined Sep 2005, 334 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6380 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 20):
The 772LR will still hand the A345HGW its a$$

You seem to know a lot about uncertified planes performances, and about not-even-built planes too.


25 Airbazar : I guess that depends on what you mean by "bright future". Given the limited number of routes for these aircraft and the even more limited number of c
26 N1120A : The 772LR has almost completed certification and its range numbers are already known and confirmed through flight testing and through the commercial
27 Post contains links WINGS : The new A340-600HGW should have the following upgrades, Engine thrust 267kn vs (249kn) Range 14,600km vs 13,900km MTOW 380T vs 368T http://www.airbus
28 Astuteman : AFAIK original A346 design range has always been 7500nm. Never seen an Airbus document that said anything other than this. Also AFAIK, the only perfo
29 Post contains links and images Glareskin : Hmm, I had the impression his knowledge was more about bottoms... Ok, not a lot of new orders since then, but the 772LR didn't have too many either..
30 Post contains images Widebodyphotog : The wing may be lighter but both HGW are structurally heavier than their standard versions. Seems like Airbus managed to found somewhere else to add
31 Post contains images TaromA380 : What about the price difference between non-HGW and HGW variants ? Is the HGW a sort of bonus from Airbus ?
32 Thorben : Widebody, somehow your overall lengths seem strange to me. Are you sure about those figures?
33 TaromA380 : You are telling the HGW is an involution, then ! I am lost ...
34 A360 : That means that for example LH's new 346's will (at least some) be HGW, right?
35 Tomcat : Widebodyphotog, It would be interesting if you could produce the same table with an added column for 744, just to appreciate how a 35+ year old design
36 A360 : If you add the 744, add the 773ER too please. Regards: A360
37 RJ111 : The A345/6 haven't really brought a lot, it's just Airbus covering that area of the market. The only (relatively) cheap way to do it was to extend th
38 Karan69 : 6 LRs including the freighter versions for QR 8 LRs including 3 options for AI I am not sure about AC though
39 Post contains images Scbriml : Boeing still only lists 5 sales for the 772LR, the last being 3 years ago! I have no doubt that someone else will buy some soon. Personally I don't c
40 Post contains links Widebodyphotog : 350-500 Seat Aircraft Data 350-500 Design Mission Data -widebodyphotog
41 A360 : Obviously... Calling the 77F the 777LRF is just silly. And including it in the 772LR salles is even more! The lattest developments on boeing's 777 pr
42 Post contains images A360 : You do well... cuz the 777F is undoubtedly not a ULR plane... If under 10000km of range is ULR than we would have thousands of ULR aircrafts flying t
43 B2707SST : Why? We can and should count the A380-800F in A380 sales. The 777F is based on the 777-200LR and is structurally virtually identical. The freighter o
44 A350 : widebodyphotog, thanks a lot for another set of great tables! I have two questions: where did you find the SFC data and how did you calculate the perf
45 Prebennorholm : ...fuel burn and subsequently seat specific costs will increase as well Example, 345 vs. 345HGW 1.5% longer range at MTOW with max fuel (9,050 vs. 9,
46 Stitch : An order is an order and it's money in the bank. Even if Boeing sells only a dozen 772LRs in passenger config, but a hundred in freighter config, Boe
47 A360 : The 777F is a 777-200 sale, not a 772LR sale. I'm not discussing the sucess of the boeing's 777's latest improvements program (772LR/777F/773ER)... I
48 N328KF : That's nonsense. The 777F and 777-200LR shared R&D costs (with each other, and with the 777-300ER, by the way) and therefore any additional unit sale
49 A360 : I'm well aware of that, and have already responded to that... Read post 47.
50 B2707SST : I don't understand where you're going with this. Both the 772LR pax and 777F are 772A derivatives. The 777F is a 772LR derivative. The freighter is b
51 Ikramerica : Yeah, the 772F has the engines, structural changes, wing changes, cockpit changes, and gear of the 772LR. That's the whole reason they can offer it w
52 Gigneil : Mhm. No. It wasn't. It was never supposed to. Kthx. N
53 Post contains images A360 : Ikramerica, B2707SST... there's not much point discussing this any further... we are all aware of the facts on the subjects... I may disagree on some
54 Zeke : How did you come up with the static and cruise thrust, fuel flow, and how did you derive the SFC ? The units in use seem a little unusual. Did you me
55 Widebodyphotog : The cruise thrust values are maximum values and SFC in pounds/pound thrust are intantaneous values for that setting. These values are not specific to
56 Hamlet69 : How do you figure that? According to Airbus's own numbers, the -500HGW sacrifices payload for range. The standard -500 has a maximum range of 8,670nm
57 Zvezda : I suppose that depends on how one defines success. I can guarantee that the bean-counters will define the success of the B777-200LR based on the deve
58 RootsAir : soory for my ignorance. What does HGW mean and what's the difference with and without HGW? thanks BM
59 Post contains images A360 : ^Higher gross weight. Read the rest of the thread please, so that you have your questions answered.
60 Zeke : Not sure what your trying to show then, power output comparisons are normally left for piston and turbo-prop engines aircraft as SFC remains fairly c
61 Thorben : Maybe we can agree to count the 777LRF sales when considering the overall success of the 772LR/773ER-program, but we don't count them in the A345 vs.
62 N328KF : I would like to congratulate you for making your very first insightful comment.
63 Post contains images Zvezda : Credit where credit is due. Thank you Thorben for a valuable contribution.
64 Post contains links Widebodyphotog : Yes, I understand that, I think we are talking about the same thing here. When I say SFC I mean Thrust Specific Fuel Consumption in pounds per pound
65 Post contains images A360 :
66 Post contains links Zeke : Okay, TSFC should be lb/hr/lb where the last lb refers to the pounds of thrust produced not LB/LBTH. Some engine TSFC values here http://www.aircraft
67 Thorben : Zeke, widebody, sorry to interrupt your discussion (of which I don't understand too much), but wouldn't the easiest thing be to take the fuel volume (
68 Widebodyphotog : Granted, but I'm really not interested in going round and round about it. We are talking about the same thing... What's on the table is spec values f
69 Zeke : Generally nothing below FL330/10200m depending on the cost index and ISA deviation, obviously RVSM airspace limits come into play also. The CX ones a
70 AirCanada014 : AC is getting some 777-200LR and 777-200LRF plus 777-300ER
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