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LH Are The 777 And 787 In Their Future?  
User currently offlineGeorgiabill From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 580 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9403 times:
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I have read that Luftansa management believes they can continue to run efficiently with both airbus and boeings in their fleet! I am wondering if the 777-300er and 787 might make up part of the Luftansa fleet in the future.

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineB742 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 3768 posts, RR: 19
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9395 times:

The 787 is probably more likely than the 77W in their future plans!

But maybe LH could replace the 747's with a mix of 77W's and A380's!

LH also has the 346's which are competitors to the 77W's!

Rob!  wave 


User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2818 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9384 times:

787s perhaps. Some people have suggested their A306s could be replaced by 783s.

User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9370 times:

One could argue the 787-3 can be see as a likely replacement for A300/A310

However looking at the relative short flights LH performs with these aircraft and the higher empty weight of the -3 I´m not sure anymore.

LH has the 346 so I´m not sure were the 773 could fit in. Same for 787-8, RR powered A330´s are new in the LH fleet. Longer term, who knows..


User currently offlineBtriple7 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1161 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9344 times:

LH doesn't need another large aircraft like the 777. They have plenty of those. The 787 seems like a likely fit. The 787 has great range, which may be something LH is looking for. If they were to buy the 787, I think it would the -800 and not the -300. They could use the plane in medium range markets (to replace the A300/310s) while still expanding in small long range markets where an A340 is too big.


Just...fly.
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 977 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9258 times:

Quoting Georgiabill (Thread starter):
I am wondering if the 777-300er and 787 might make up part of the Luftansa fleet in the future.

There was a brief period of time around last year when LH considered the 773ER, but decided to continue with an A346 add-on order.

In my opinion, the only the 777F has a decent shot to represent the 777 family at LH. Unless fuel prices skyrocket again or LH begins some truely massive growth, I suspect the 773ER's chance has passed with LH.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 3):
However looking at the relative short flights LH performs with these aircraft and the higher empty weight of the -3 I´m not sure anymore.

In what way? Fuel consumption or landing/weight related expenses?

It has been demonstrated that the 787-3 should burn considerably less fuel for a given mission (within its range) compared to the 763A or A300-6. As you already know, many of the new technology pushing fuel burn down adds opperating weight. The T1000 and Genx are heavier per shipset than the T700 or CF6, but consume sufficently less fuel to make economic sense.

IMO, it isn't suprising that the 787-3 has a high OEW. New generation aircraft are often heavier than their predescors, but still more efficent. The 73G weights more than the 733, but burns considerably less fuel per mission. Being a derrivitive of a long-haul aircraft, I think the OEW situation of the 787-3 is the best that can be done within the constrains of the (first priority) 787-8/9.


User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10736 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9242 times:

I´ve heard just recently that LHs fleet management is indeed seriously interested in the 787. Inside LH there is some concern that they might become too dependent on one supplier (Airbus) and want to change that. The 744 will stay for very long, don´t expect them too leave the fleet in any considerably numbers before 2010 after the oldest have turned 20. The 737 will certainly leave the fleet a lot earlier than the 744 LH is very happy with.

As much as I heard the 747 Adv. and 777 chances aren´t too high though to find their way into LHs fleet, although both might fit into future LH Cargo operation.


User currently offlineGeorgiabill From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 580 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9050 times:
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Agreed the 777-200LR freighter is most likely candidate to join LH in the near future. However I am sure the 777-300ER, could replace the 744 on some routes and give LH options to open new routes from Berlin and Munich which a 744 would be to big and a A340 would be to small. Just a thought!

User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9822 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8988 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 5):
In my opinion, the only the 777F has a decent shot to represent the 777 family at LH. Unless fuel prices skyrocket again or LH begins some truely massive growth, I suspect the 773ER's chance has passed with LH.



Quoting NA (Reply 6):
As much as I heard the 747 Adv. and 777 chances aren´t too high though to find their way into LHs fleet, although both might fit into future LH Cargo operation.



Quoting Georgiabill (Reply 7):
Agreed the 777-200LR freighter is most likely candidate to join LH in the near future. However I am sure the 777-300ER, could replace the 744 on some routes and give LH options to open new routes from Berlin and Munich which a 744 would be to big and a A340 would be to small. Just a thought!

Agreed. The 772LRF is the only MD11F replacement aircraft available so LH Cargo might go for the 772ERF but even if LH will go for the 772LRF it will take a long time as the MD11Fs operated by LH Cargo are still fairly new aircraft. IMO it will take a long time before we can see a Boeing order coming from LH but who knows. Time will tell...

A388


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8932 times:

Quoting Btriple7 (Reply 4):
The 787 seems like a likely fit. The 787 has great range, which may be something LH is looking for. If they were to buy the 787, I think it would the -800 and not the -300.

LH are big enough to buy both the B787-3 and the B787-8 (and possibly the B787-9/10X as well) The B787-3 and B787-8 are virtually identical other than wingtips and fuselage thickness, neither of which is going to require a different spares inventory or MX training.


User currently offlineA350 From Germany, joined Nov 2004, 1100 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8913 times:

I do expect a large order for 787s or A350s as A343 replacement and for fleet growth, however, not before 2010. The race is probably absolutely open and the better offer wins. In case of an A350 purchase a few 783s are still possible.

For the T7, however, I'm not looking forward, except for the freighter. They will stay with the A346 and order more if they need more.

A350



Photography - the art of observing, not the art of arranging
User currently offlineJumboForever From Japan, joined Jul 2005, 200 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8877 times:

Quoting Georgiabill (Thread starter):
I am wondering if the 777-300er and 787 might make up part of the Luftansa fleet in the future.

Replace the yoke with a sidestick and they order 100s of them Big grin

Just kidding of course...

JumboForever


User currently offlineFCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2348 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 8833 times:

DfwRevolution

Totally agree with this comments.
The only way the T7 family has to be part of the LH fleet is the cargo version.
If the cargo continues to grow at LH , it will be more and more difficult to find MD11Fs , thus the 777-200LRF will be the only solution.I expect very soon.


User currently offlineA350 From Germany, joined Nov 2004, 1100 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 8613 times:

Quoting FCKC (Reply 12):
If the cargo continues to grow at LH , it will be more and more difficult to find MD11Fs , thus the 777-200LRF will be the only solution.I expect very soon.

The A380F is the alternative. LH cargo has already said they consider both the 777F and the A380F. I don't know if they will keep the MD11Fs in case of an A380F purchase, but I think it would make sense to keep them for thinner routes.

A350



Photography - the art of observing, not the art of arranging
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 8547 times:

Quoting A350 (Reply 10):
For the T7, however, I'm not looking forward, except for the freighter. They will stay with the A346 and order more if they need more.

with LH basically purchasing Airbus the past number of years, it will be interesting to see if they will purchase some Boeings...

but in the end, its all about $$$ and they will go where they can get the better deal and what kinds of fleet suits them best.....if Boeing will be able to do the job, then they will purchase Boeings, if Airbus does the job, than Airbus it shall be...

that being said, would be nice to see some new Boeings in LH colours.. yes 



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2818 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 8495 times:

Quoting A350 (Reply 13):
The A380F is the alternative.

Some how I question that. The A380F and the 777F are in very different leagues. The 777F can take denser freight than the A380F, while the A380F can take significantly more. There's no reason that they couldn't have both if they decide they want to introduce the 777 into their fleet.


User currently offlineAmy From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 1150 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 7769 times:

Could the 787-3 make a good replacement for LH's A300-600s?

Seems to me that the range and capacity are roughly comparable, maybe the 787 is a bit larger in capacity.



A340-300 - slow, but awesome!
User currently offlineBuslover From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7692 times:

You can expect a 777 - 300 ER order as replacement for their 744 fleet. Those old birdies just use too much fuel.


The best airplane is the one you fly
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7654 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 14):
that being said, would be nice to see some new Boeings in LH colours..

There are indeed a lot of chances for that. If I had to bet, I'd say 747 Adv. (They have stated interest in that, because the gap between the A346 and the 744 is somewhat small, that between the 744 and the A388 really big.)

Their CEO said he'd be interested in a long-range 787. I guess that means 787-8, for routes where the A343 is a little too big.

LH is an independent company, they can chose whatever plane they like. Although the large Airbus fleet makes more Airbus planes more likely. But they don't want to be with only one manufacturer, not at their size.

Quoting Amy (Reply 16):
Could the 787-3 make a good replacement for LH's A300-600s?

Seems to me that the range and capacity are roughly comparable, maybe the 787 is a bit larger in capacity.

Would make sense. The A306 is their workhorse for domestic and LHR flights, it seems they'll use them until they fall apart.


User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2179 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7620 times:

Quoting Georgiabill (Reply 7):
However I am sure the 777-300ER, could replace the 744 on some routes and give LH options to open new routes from Berlin and Munich which a 744 would be to big and a A340 would be to small.

If a 744 is too big and a 340 (assuming 340-300) too small, they will use the 340-600 hence no real need for the 773ER.

Quoting Buslover (Reply 17):
You can expect a 777 - 300 ER order as replacement for their 744 fleet. Those old birdies just use too much fuel

That should almost be considered as an insult against the 744. QF, AF, KE or SQ who all got brand new 744s in the past few years probably don't share your opinion. Even LH got its more recent 744 not even 4 years ago!



When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlineJohnny From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7594 times:

Hi,

i would love to see new Boeing orders from Lufthansa.
But i do not see a B787-Order because look at Lufthansa´s current big A330/340-Fleet: (Dec.05)

A330-200 (LX) 9
A330-300 (LH) 10
A340-300 (LH) 28
A340-300 (LX) 9
A340-600 (LH) 10 + 7 on order

This is a total of 66 + 7 on order!!!

So,why should LH invest in a completely different Airplane (787) instead of introducing a family-airplane - the A350..?

A shortrange A350 is likely to come as well.

I expect either B747A or B777-300ER Orders as a B744-Replacement!

Johnny  Smile


User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7090 times:

Quoting Johnny (Reply 20):
So,why should LH invest in a completely different Airplane (787) instead of introducing a family-airplane - the A350..?

They could have both, the A350 is maybe a little to big for some routes, so they could buy a bunch of 787-8s. If they buy some 20 of them the family/commonality-issue will be ok, I suppose.


User currently offlineFCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2348 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7020 times:

Don't you think , before purchasing T7s (all versions) or 787s , they have to resolve firstly the 737 problem.
They will choose a new narrow body plane to replace these 737s , but they said it will not be in any case coming from the A320 family or 737NG family.
It will be one out of the successor of both these families.
Can somebody closed to this LH file confirmed in which order they want to buy planes.
T7/787/A350 first , or narrow bodies first ?
It will be interesting to get the answer.
Auf wiedersehen !!!!!!!


User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6944 times:

The two fleet areas (LH and LH cargo) have to be looked at separately as LH runs both as almost separate airlines.

LH is going to need an A306 replacement in the short term, and some have already left the fleet. So it's a short to medium range people carrier they need. Airbus doesn't really have anything in the pot at the moment for that sector as it's not a market they envisage doing much business with. So the 783 would be a favourite to get that business. However more point to point services negate the traffic which needs to be shuttled in and out of FRA by the A306 so they could well just downsize to the A321 on remaining feeder routes with the A330 if required.

As for LH Cargo, freight is the growth driver nowadays and with revised traffic forecasts showing that moving boxes will outstrip moving people for point growth in traffic, then look to see LH Cargo wanting more aircraft in the MD-11 mould. No specialist equipment at the journey end, which means a single decker. There is only one suitable aircraft at the moment and that's the 777F, so I'd say an order is looking probable and sooner than some might think.

They could opt for an A380F as well for major trunk routes but having watched them move to a smaller aircraft as standard and leaving the heavy lifts to Antonov or subcontract operators then their strategy would point to operating the 777F alongside the MD-11.


User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9169 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6178 times:

Quoting NA (Reply 6):
As much as I heard the 747 Adv. and 777 chances aren´t too high though to find their way into LHs fleet, although both might fit into future LH Cargo operation.

What do you mean? They have openly expressed interest in the B 747A and LH is one of the airlines that are pushing for the B 747A, both passengers and cargo version


25 Columba : The were evaluating the 777-300ER last year but went for the A340-600. No way for the 777-300 with LH anymore. Which is sad because while I like the
26 Fraport : According to information from a highly credible source inside LH they don't have to replace the A306 in the short term. Even if a few of them reach a
27 Columba : Agreed, the A300-600 as well as the 737 are both planed to be used beyond 2010. But 2010 is not too far away so I do think that LH is planning for a
28 Bmacleod : LH has been leaning towards Airbus for the past few years especially with ordering the 380 and the bet seems to be that they will ultimately chose the
29 Columba : But LH has said over the years that they have no interest to become independent from Airbus. Although they have ordered the A380 they have shown inte
30 Gigneil : I'm not following this, I'm afraid. There is only one 777 freighter, the 777-200F. It is based on the 777-200LR. There isn't one based on the 777-200
31 Atmx2000 : From the context, I think you meant the opposite: they have no interest in becoming dependent on Airbus.
32 Columba : Yep, typo......
33 Stitch : I am with those who believe that LH will continue with the A346 and A346HGW. Operating efficiencies of the 773ER aside, adding them into the fleet in
34 Aleksandar : But they in fact are dependent on Airbus. I also see no chance for LH to buy 777s. Even if they are in cargo version. You are all mentioning the repl
35 Fraport : It's higly unlikely that LH orders 737NGs. As much as an order for further A32Xs is unlikely. They are propably pushing A and B to come up with succe
36 Zvezda : I agree with previous posters that LH are unlikely to order the B777-300ER. Sooner or later their B747-400s will need to be replaced. In many cases t
37 Columba : The problem is LH does not wants to replace the 737 and the A320 with 737NGs or newly build A320s but both Airbus and Boeing don´t want to come out
38 Georgiabill : I think the 777-300ER is a likely replacement for LH's 744'S. With the improved economics it would allow LH to open new routes or increase frequencies
39 A342 : Stop dreaming Georgiabill. LH won´t buy the 773ER as they already have the A346. Many people have told you this and I do so again, yet you seem to b
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