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787:How Important Is A BA Order?  
User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2465 posts, RR: 1
Posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 7253 times:

I'm wondering what the effects of a BA 787 would be. Would a BA order influence other airlines?

Am I placing too much emphasis on BA? If so, what airline would be a more important 787 customer?


The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4659 posts, RR: 23
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 7180 times:

I think all airlines are important to have orders from. The more the merrier Boeing would be!

However, I guess there is a certain prestige to landing some more of the "blue chip" carriers, like Singapore Airlines, Qantas, Cathay Pacific, British Airways and the like...

Trent.



I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 7147 times:

I think the B787 promising sales figures make the existence of the a bellweather customer less important. By all indications, Boeing has quite a bit of forward momentum already. The 787 customer base is fairly diverse.

Of course, BA is one of the world's leading airlines and a big order would serve as big feather in Boeing's cap.


User currently offlineWrighbrothers From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 1875 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 7131 times:

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Thread starter):
I'm wondering what the effects of a BA 787 would be.

If it's a big order, then it will be important.

Wrighbrothers



Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2037 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 7059 times:

I would suggest that a BA order for the 747ADv or A380 would be far more important to these programmes, than one for the 787 which is likely to be a massive success anyway.


it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12181 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 7045 times:

Quoting N79969 (Reply 2):
Of course, BA is one of the world's leading airlines and a big order would serve as big feather in Boeing's cap.



Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 3):
If it's a big order, then it will be important.

I think you both are right. I'm sure that when BA gets around to ordering their B-767-300ER replacements, both Airbus, with the A-350 and Boeing with the B787 will be right there competing hard for the sale.

But, today I believe that BA will begin ordering B-787-800/900s in 2008-2009 to replace the B-767-300ERs. I also think they will order the B-747-ADV, about that same time to begin replacing the B-747-400s.

Maybe sometime around 2012 they will begin ordering the B-787-10 to begin replacing the B-777-200/200ERs they took delievery of in the mid to late '90s, unless there is a good deal on the B-777-200LR.

Around 2008, AA will begin to order the B-787-300 to replace the A-300-600Rs. That will be AA's first B-787 order.


User currently offlineWrighbrothers From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 1875 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6997 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 5):
both Airbus, with the A-350 and Boeing with the B787 will be right there competing hard for the sale.

You bet, but IMHO, BA will go for the B787, However, I think it will be a mix of short haul 787-3's and Long Haul 787-9's.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 5):
also think they will order the B-747-ADV, about that same time to begin replacing the B-747-400s.

Yes, but not untill the 2010 mark, then the oldest 744 will be 20-21 years old, then the replacement will be a valid one , if you get what i'm saying.

BA's first priority is to replace the 767's, and I personaly think they'll go boeing, but Airbus will fight hard.

744 replaqcement- 747ADV around , 2010-2015
767 replacement- 787-3's ( S.H) and 787-9's ( L/H) , around , 2007-2010
777 replacemnet- 777 LR/300, OR 787-10. around , 2008-2010.


Wrighbrothers



Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2465 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6894 times:

Hmmm. I forgot that BA won't be ordering for a few years. So Boeing needs to put heavy pressure on SQ and/or CX.

My thinking was that if Boeing could land a BA or SQ order, that would create a psychological avalanche where it would be perceived that the world's elite airlines were ordering the 787 and other airlines would want to follow.

If Boeing could land BA(which is highly likely) and another major like SQ or CX(also possible) would that be enough to relegate the A350 to bridesmaid status?

Boeing has CO, NW, AA, and most likely UA already, so most of the us is in Boeing's hands.

Thoughts?


** Disclaimer: Yes, I favor the 787 over the A350. The 747 over the A380 and the 777 over the A330/A340. **



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineDistantHorizon From Portugal, joined Oct 2005, 224 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6812 times:

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 7):
My thinking was that if Boeing could land a BA or SQ order, that would create a psychological avalanche where it would be perceived that the world's elite airlines were ordering the 787 and other airlines would want to follow.

And I thought the 787 was a so much better plane than the A350 it didn't need that psychological things...  Wink


User currently offlineCrazyHorse From Austria, joined Nov 2005, 328 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6778 times:

When BA order a big number of 787, then this order is surely a important order. The question is, if an order from BA will affect the aviation industries and other airlines follow BA.
Maybe the coming QF order shows which aircraft other Oneworld-Member will order.


User currently offlineBtriple7 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1184 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 6577 times:

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 7):
My thinking was that if Boeing could land a BA or SQ order, that would create a psychological avalanche where it would be perceived that the world's elite airlines were ordering the 787 and other airlines would want to follow.

I wouldn't say it would be psychological. Airlines don't order planes because some elite airline did. Airlines just order planes because they suit their needs.

As far as how important a BA order would be, Boeing just wants more orders, whether the orders come from BA or some small, middle-of-nowhere airline. If BA did order some 787s, it would certainly boost the morale of the 787 program, but it wouldn't start a psychological avalanche of orders. I do not see BA ordering the aircraft until after the plane enters commercial service.

Just my  twocents  ,
Btriple7



Just...fly.
User currently offlineBA319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8589 posts, RR: 54
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 6542 times:
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I don't think it matters as BA are not a launch customer or are in the early round of customers.

In the long term, I feel BA are more likely to order versions of the 787 over the A350.

Whilst it appears the A350 will be a superb aircraft, the reduced capacity of the 787-3 will appeal to BA for the euro short hauls whilst 787-8/9 will be work fine for the longer thin routes served by the 763 today.

The A350 will be a superb plane, but just a bit too much of a plane for BA's short haul european flights that the 763 is used on today.



111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
User currently offlineFCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2348 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6404 times:

Of course it will be important for Boeing to win a 787 order by a prestigious airline as BA , but if they won't get it , doesn't really matter , since this programm will be a success.Do not forget , as soon as the American airlines will recover the health , be sure they will order a huge number of 787s.
BA or not , the 787 will reach very soon the 1000 units sold.


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6382 times:

As far as psychological/PR values go, I would say that a A350 order from BA would be a bigger victory for Airbus in terms of morale than a 787 order would be for Boeing. It would represent an entry to BA's widebody fleet which is all Boeing.

User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8478 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6365 times:

I think BA is one of the airlines Boeing really wants to sell the 787 to, both for the revenues and for the boost it would give the program. But it's the same for all the major airlines.

What I would like to know: Has BA put down their refundable deposits for some slots? My bet is yes, along with QF, CX, SQ and a lot of other airlines.


User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3420 posts, RR: 16
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6332 times:

I think the order is more tied to whether or not LHR is opened up. BA will probably use this aircraft for opening up more point-to-point. They casn go on the offensive and not worry about adding larger aircraft to protect their major routes in and out of LHR. If it's opened up, I would go on record that they would reluctantly order the A380 to maximize those flights with the added capacity. Other carriers are way more important to the market for this aircraft right now.

User currently offlineWAH64D From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 966 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6295 times:

I don't think BA under Willie Walsh will go for the 787. He's distinctly pro-Airbus and I think Airbus would likely give a better deal on A350 than Boeing would on 787. This is purely because the B787 is more or less guaranteed to be a runaway success whereas its early days for the A350. Engine choice will also be a factor as BA are none too keen on GE after the non ER 772s.

This is all a few years down the track anyway. The 767 fleet will be around for a while yet after the "dusk" cabin upgrade.



I AM the No-spotalotacus.
User currently offlineBtriple7 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1184 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6268 times:

Quoting WAH64D (Reply 16):
I don't think BA under Willie Walsh will go for the 787. He's distinctly pro-Airbus and I think Airbus would likely give a better deal on A350 than Boeing would on 787.

Where did that come from?! How in the world can you say he is pro-Airbus? I suppose you could say he helped convert EI to an all-Airbus fleet, but this certainly doesn't make him pro-Airbus. Even if he was, I am sure he would be open to the 787.

Quoting WAH64D (Reply 16):
Engine choice will also be a factor as BA are none too keen on GE after the non ER 772s.

Please clarify this. A lot of their 777ERs are GE-powered, and if they didn't power their 787s with GE, then they would just power them with RR.

[Edited 2005-11-02 00:18:57]


Just...fly.
User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24964 posts, RR: 56
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks ago) and read 6222 times:

Ah yes, BA...
Airbus Short Haul
Boeing Long Haul

Hence why IMO you'll never ever see an A380 in BA c/s
The 777 and 747 is much better for BA than the Uglybus.



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6106 times:

Quoting WAH64D (Reply 16):
I don't think BA under Willie Walsh will go for the 787. He's distinctly pro-Airbus and I think Airbus would likely give a better deal on A350 than Boeing would on 787. This is purely because the B787 is more or less guaranteed to be a runaway success whereas its early days for the A350. Engine choice will also be a factor as BA are none too keen on GE after the non ER 772s.

Of course Willie Walsh is also pro-GE. Anyway what does engine choice have to do with the 787 versus A350 debate?



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2465 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6104 times:

Quoting N79969 (Reply 13):
I would say that a A350 order from BA would be a bigger victory for Airbus in terms of morale than a 787 order would be for Boeing.

I agree that it would be a big victory for Airbus if BA chose the A350. However, I think the victory will be bigger for Boeing as it would begin to cement the A350 into the runner up status.

Given the number of major global airlines, I would say Boeing would only need to secure BA, SQ and CX for a virtual blowout of the A350.

AA - Virtually guaranteed as a 787 customer
AC - Locked in
AI - Locked in
AT - Letter of intent
BA - Highly likely to order
CA - Locked in
CO - Locked in
CX - Dead heat between the 787 and A350.
CZ - Locked in
ET - Locked in
FI - Locked in
GA - Locked in
HA - Very good candidate given Boeings financing involvement
KE - Locked in
LO - Locked in
MU - Locked in
NH - Locked in
NW - Locked in
NZ - Locked in
QF - Very close to a deal
SQ - Boeing looks good here.
SU - Good possibility
UA - Likely to order once financially able.

Whether intentional or not, Boeing seemed to use the "Sell a few to many" strategy which locks Airbus out of many carriers with a minimal amount of aircraft.

Thoughts, flames,...?



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineBtriple7 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1184 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6007 times:

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 20):
I would say Boeing would only need to secure BA, SQ and CX for a virtual blowout of the A350.

Knowing SQ, they will probably order both the 787 and the A350.



Just...fly.
User currently offlineSQuared From Canada, joined May 2005, 387 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5994 times:

A BA order would certainly be a prestigious one.

But, traditionally SQ has been the order to get. SQ is known for its extremely shrewd aircraft selection, and is certainly influential among some of its Asian peers. Although some of that influence has waned, one cannot simply discount the SIA factor...

SQuared


User currently offlineTinkerBelle From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5977 times:

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 7):
** Disclaimer: Yes, I favor the 787 over the A350. The 747 over the A380 and the 777 over the A330/A340. **

Gee, what a suprise...lol

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 7):
Boeing has CO, NW, AA, and most likely UA already, so most of the us is in Boeing's hands.

No sure if B has AA and UA on a B787 order...unless you know something we don't.

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 7):
If Boeing could land BA(which is highly likely) and another major like SQ or CX(also possible) would that be enough to relegate the A350 to bridesmaid status?

I think it's already a bridesmaid thus far.... more 787 orders will make the A330 on steroids (A350) a flower girl.

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 7):
My thinking was that if Boeing could land a BA or SQ order, that would create a psychological avalanche where it would be perceived that the world's elite airlines were ordering the 787 and other airlines would want to follow.

You're absolutely right. Throw AA and UA in the mix and wallaaa.


User currently offlineER757 From Cayman Islands, joined May 2005, 2607 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5964 times:

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 4):
I would suggest that a BA order for the 747ADv or A380 would be far more important to these programmes, than one for the 787

I agree with the above, but when an airline the size of BA orders an aircraft model, it's not likely to be 2 or 6 frames, but dozens. So an order from BA would certainly be important to Boeing just for the sheer numbers.


25 Post contains images SNATH : That should be EK, not SQ, right? Tony
26 SQuared : SQ ordered both the 757 and the A310, to test them out. Ultimately the A310 won out, because SQ found that its custumers preferred widebodies. Could
27 SNATH : Oh, I see. I knew that SQ had B757s but I didn't know they got them to test them against the A310. Thanks... Tony
28 Post contains images Byrdluvs747 : True, there's no AA order for the 787 yet. However, I think it's highly unlikely we'll see AA run to Airbus for their next widebody order. The two ar
29 Vincewy : Wouldn't 787 be too small for BA's long haul operations out of LHR? If BA ever needs them, it'd be short range versions, intra-EU flights, OR long hau
30 Iloveboeing : I'm really not sure if that would be a good move for SQ. The 787 will have commonality with the 777 and, even though they have the A345 in their flee
31 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : Aside from the flamebait comment, the fact is that having two manufacturers means that weaker aircraft will get more orders than they deserve while s
32 Keesje : I think Boeing would really welcome BA to its 787 customer list. Or LH, AF, KLM, SAS, IB, AA, UA, DL, SQ, MH, CX, QF, EK for that matter..
33 Shenzhen : BA would be considered a strategic order for Boeing. Boeing needs strong airlines on every continent to order the airplane, and currently no blue chip
34 Post contains images Manni : I dont mind you speculating, may I have a go aswell? AA- speculation, based on buy American because its American AC- cancelled, likely to reorder AI-
35 StickShaker : Yes indeed. Theres a lot of new manufacturing processes and logistics to be put in place on what is quite a tight schedule. Dont think we will see an
36 N79969 : This is a good point. I think it would take BA + 2-3 other signficant European 787 orders before Boeing would be able to claim dominance.
37 Kaneporta1 : Since the 787-10 is still just speculation, I think BA will order a bunch of 787-3s for the high density European routes but I wouldn't rule out an A3
38 Post contains images Jacobin777 : the A310 and B757 case really can't be used here as the B787 and A350 are both widebodies.. you may be correct in theory, but I think on a practical
39 Revelation : I think it's more important for BA to order the B787 to keep A and B competing with each other, than it is for Boeing to have BA buy the B787. If BA g
40 WAH64D : Boeing, just like any other commercial aircraft manufacturer will answer the phone to anybody with the money to buy an aircraft and I mean anybody.
41 Post contains links and images Byrdluvs747 : No it's becuase AA has no love for Airbus. Look at their fleet simplification plan. There's a reason it doesn't include Airbus. AA - Yup, the deal is
42 VV701 : I have read a significant number of times that Walsh (and hence from now on BA) are pro-Airbus. Is this just because Aer Lingus operate the A320 and
43 N79969 : American Airlines acquired factory new A300s. However after the 2001 crash in New York, Airbus and American blamed each other for the accident and th
44 Jacobin777 : Walsh's job was to get the fleet intact, and Airbus had provided EI the best combinations and deals...it doesn't have to do with the fact Walsh is an
45 Post contains images Manni : You're missing the point. Did it ever cross your mind that the former CEO of Continental (the one in charge when they commited to the 787) was an ex
46 ClassicLover : Ditto QF incidentally. Trent.
47 Post contains images Btriple7 : I agree 100%, Jacobin777. Walsh is a smart airline CEO. He will go for the best plane for BA. I know he will be open to listen and negociate with bot
48 BlueSky1976 : GE is also offered on A350, so the engines by themselves don't guarantee the sale of particular frame in this case. Keep dreaming... 140 orders + ano
49 RayChuang : My guess right now is that BA will likely order the 787-8 either in 2006 or 2007 to replace the 767-300's powered by Trent 1000 engines. With the new
50 Post contains images Jacobin777 : whooohooo..thanks Btriple7 at least I now know that someone actually agrees with me ..there really is a god up there like LHR-SAN
51 AirbusA6 : Willie Walsh will have an opinion on what aircraft to buy, but there will be plenty others within BA with an equal or greater say. Personally, I think
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