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Why No Red-eyes On WN?  
User currently offlineJsposaune From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 291 posts, RR: 1
Posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5122 times:

While leaving LAS last night, I noticed all the RON's from WN and it got me thinking...Why are there no redeye trans-cons on WN? With their recent addition of long(er) haul flights, wouldn't this make sense for them? Just curious...

PS: I saw that they do have a couple of flights into BWI that arrive approx 0100-0200, but I don't count those as red-eyes.


There are no stupid questions....only stupid people!!!
19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineBrokenrecord From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 772 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5103 times:

Much like the ground workers at ORF, WN crews don't like to stay up late.  Smile

User currently offlineSocalfive From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5080 times:

They simply cycle the equipment to where it's needed at the end of flight days. This is another cost savings factor.

User currently offlineFlypdx From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 636 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5036 times:

I thought it had to do with MX, as that was when it was scheduled. Someone can correct me.

User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5036 times:

The subject has been covered in past threads, so you might try a search (including archived civil aviation).

The short answer is that the demand isn't there, and the overnight maintenance work requirements....


User currently offlineChiGB1973 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1612 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5014 times:

Quoting Brokenrecord (Reply 1):
Much like the ground workers at ORF, WN crews don't like to stay up late.



Quoting Socalfive (Reply 2):
They simply cycle the equipment to where it's needed at the end of flight days. This is another cost savings factor.



Quoting Flypdx (Reply 3):
I thought it had to do with MX, as that was when it was scheduled

WN F/As have told me there are a lot of military charters done at night.

M


User currently offlineRIPCORDD From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1126 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5001 times:

OPNL Dude have you ever been on a red-eye from LAX to Chicago The last 4 I have taken this year have been sold out and there is like 2 flights leaving 30 mins apart. I know they use it as time for maintence but the demand is there esp with WN I know they would be able to fill them up

User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4998 times:

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 5):
WN F/As have told me there are a lot of military charters done at night.

True, but that's the exception, and not the rule... They're usually on weekends, and many don't involve taking an aircraft from an overnight MX facility...


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4977 times:

Quoting RIPCORDD (Reply 6):
OPNL Dude have you ever been on a red-eye from LAX to Chicago The last 4 I have taken this year have been sold out and there is like 2 flights leaving 30 mins apart. I know they use it as time for maintence but the demand is there esp with WN I know they would be able to fill them up

Perhaps they're not doing as well as the other 361 days of the year. I'll defer to our marketing and MX departments on this one...


User currently offlineChiGB1973 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1612 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4954 times:

Quoting RIPCORDD (Reply 6):
LAX to Chicago

One of the lowest yielding routes. While I was at TZ, even an 80% load factor was not enough.

M


User currently offlineFlewGSW From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4812 times:

WN does not train their pilots for red eyes, saves $ in training.

User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4312 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4753 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting FlewGSW (Reply 10):
WN does not train their pilots for red eyes, saves $ in training.

Are you serious?? I sure hope not.



Next fights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4728 times:

Quoting FlewGSW (Reply 10):
WN does not train their pilots for red eyes, saves $ in training.

That is completely untrue. Besides, WN pilots DO fly at night (all IFR pilots must be able to fly at night anyway) and would have no problem with a redeye



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineNtspelich From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 764 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4707 times:

I know that our last flight in (1099 from LAS) is rather hit or miss. The pax load will be in the 30s for weeks and then spike up around holidays, major events, etc, which is to be expected. However, it's also used as an east coast freight/mail positioning flight, much like our last flight to the west coast (ok PHX isn't west coast, but it's close enough) is used. Basically, stick around for the last inbound and you get a nice variety of freight/mail that had to be bumped earlier in the day throughout the system. Get it all to LAS by 6pm, throw it on there and plop it down in another mega station four hours later. All that's left is getting it out first thing in the morning.

Long story short, it doesn't take many pax upstairs for those flights to break even or make a profit.

That and, contrary to my recent work schedule, we at WN do like to sleep during the night. Nothing beats being the last one out and calling OPNL and his crew in dispatch to get the all clear for the night.

NTS

[Edited 2005-11-03 06:08:45]


United 717 heavy, you're facing the wrong way. Any chance you can powerback to get off of my deice pad?
User currently offlineRDUDDJI From Lesotho, joined Jun 2004, 1422 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4671 times:

Quoting Socalfive (Reply 2):
They simply cycle the equipment to where it's needed at the end of flight days. This is another cost savings factor.

Wrong. Higher utilization of your aircraft results in lower CASM. Not every plane needs overnight MX. Airlines that do red-eyes also do overnight work-packs on their RON aircraft. That's what aircraft routers are for (speaking from routing experience). Most carriers use only a small portion of their fleet for domestic red-eyes (10-20%). I am sure many, if not most WN aircraft are not at a MX facility or contract facility for their RON.

The most rational answer offered in this thread is the one about marketing. WN doesn't feel they need the additional revenue (and/or exposure) from red-eyes. WN also schedules some very tight turns and now that they are in some congested markets (see PHL) the lack of red-eyes also give you recovery time (both aicraft and crew) from upline delays.

Quoting FlewGSW (Reply 10):
WN does not train their pilots for red eyes, saves $ in training.

riiiiiiighhht.  Smile



Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
User currently offlineLuvfa From United States of America, joined May 2005, 439 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4651 times:

I had an ATA pilot commuting on my flight this evening and he told me something interesting! Evidently there is some compatability with our Res systems as far as the code-share goes. Apparently our software doesn't recognize an itinerarythat occurs over more than one calender day, (as a red-eye would sugguest).

That being said however, I do believe that you will see red-eyes on WN in the future. Keep in mind trans-cons didn't exist at Southwest prior to 2002.


User currently offlineSwatpamike From United States of America, joined May 2004, 581 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4640 times:

Hello all

Quoting Ntspelich (Reply 13):
However, it's also used as an east coast freight/mail positioning flight

For the uneducated let me translate what he just said.

That means that Vegas puts all the days left over freight and mail on the last few east bound flights going to BWI, TPA, MCO etc...

Nothing fries my bacon more then 75 pieces of freight on 627 LAS-TPA that's going to PHL.  Smile

Keep it coming LAS, at least we are making money.

Cheers

swatpamike


User currently offlineSWAbubba From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 154 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4313 times:

Quoting FlewGSW (Reply 10):
WN does not train their pilots for red eyes, saves $ in training.

As others have mentioned there is no specific training for red-eyes other than that required for flying at night.

Anyway we do fly red-eyes, just not as scheduled service. We do two LAS-BUF charters every weekend and often do military charters and maintenance ferry flights overnight.

I flew the BUF-LAS-BUF charters a few times, but have since decided that it's not worth the money to stay up all night.


User currently offlineNYCFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1384 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4199 times:

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 4):
The short answer is that the demand isn't there,

Of course there's a demand. Why else does every other airline, including B6, fly redeyes?

You would think redeyes would fit right into WN's business model, because redeyes are all about getting the maximum utilization from each plane. The more hours per day a plane is in the air, the more profit. Redeyes are one of the keys to B6's success (so said Neeleman himself in a speech I saw him give this week.) It's a very good question why WN doesn't do it. Oh well. At least enough other airlines do.


User currently offlineJetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2986 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4191 times:

Red-eyes at most airlines were never operated to be profitable, they were to reposition equipment to the East Coast for morning departures.

I think part of it with Southwest is for their employees. It's a big selling point with Southwest recruiters, that you get to sleep at night if you work for them.



Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
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