KensukeAida From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 217 posts, RR: 0 Posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3631 times:
Okay, so would it be fair to say then when all current orders are filled (UPS seems to be the only major one for the A300-600), that Airbus will shut down production of this type?
It certainly seems as if the A300/A310 has been milked about as much as it's going to be milked. Many carriers are actively dumping them from pax service. If it weren't useful as a freighter, it would be gone by now.
1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 5770 posts, RR: 2 Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3624 times:
After the 767 is discontinued.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
Gigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16215 posts, RR: 88 Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3592 times:
They did...
Its quite clear that the A300 will have lived a longer life than the 767, despite not being as successful.
If Airbus had designed a 6000nm A300-600R, this might be a different story. They bet wrong.
It doesn't make any sense, really. The A300's wing is bigger... it should have easily supported more fuel, payload, and cargo than the 767-300ER and been a good compliment to the bigger A330.
Col From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2040 posts, RR: 22 Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3592 times:
Don't see where all the airlines are dumping them? There are about 4 x 306 in storage, which are probably awaiting FR conversion. Such is the shortage of frames in the second hand market Fedex purchase new. UPS apparently cancelled 37, but with fuel prices as they are, they might surprise us with keeping some of those orders?
The old Airbus really ain't that bad, the 787 will be its main replacement.
Gigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16215 posts, RR: 88 Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3572 times:
Col-
UPS cancelled those A306s because the US and intra-region markets have topped out. The money is in US-Eur, US-Asia, and Eur-Asia. They're going to downsize their DC-8 fleet (which is a pretty big plane) without really negative effect on lift.
Watch the worldwide A310-300 fleet disappear quickly into the Fedex fold. They're adding as many as they can get their hands on, as some of their A310-200s are really quite old and the A310-300 is much more capable and efficient (and modern, in terms of systems).
Those A300-600s and A310s are going to live on practically forever.
KensukeAida From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 217 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3535 times:
Quoting Col (Reply 4): Don't see where all the airlines are dumping them?
From pax service they are. JAL is dumping theirs next year for instance. KLM sold their A310s to FedEx. KAL has had massive reductions in their A300 fleet size. Ditto for LH. I doubt AA wants them around as soon as a viable alternative comes up.
And in any event, the thread is about new airframes. It is obvious that many of the current ones out there will live on as freighters for FedEx and the like. The freighter orders are not that big to keep the line open as opposed to consolidating and developing an A330 freighter.
The A300 vs. B767 is like the DC-8 vs. 707. One was more successful than the other in pax service, but the other will live on for a lot longer in cargo service.
Gigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16215 posts, RR: 88 Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3530 times:
Arguably, the 707 died as a result of the USAF snapping up used frames for parts for KC-135s.
TrevD From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 327 posts, RR: 3 Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3465 times:
The only reason there are more A300/A310/A306 conversions to freighter than 767's is that the residual values of the 767's are still too high to convert whereas the A300 series values have plumetted to the $10-$15M price range where it's economical to convert.
Believe we'll start seeing 767's starting to be convert in about 2 years...in fact Boeing and ANA just announced a deal that launches the 767-300P-F conversion program.
Zvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 65 Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3392 times:
Quoting KensukeAida (Thread starter): would it be fair to say then when all current orders are filled (UPS seems to be the only major one for the A300-600), that Airbus will shut down production of this type?
No, it wouldn't. It is built on the same line with the other Airbus widebodies (except the WhaleJet) so the A300 will continue to be offered as long as Airbus are making 222 inch diameter fuselages. Since Airbus just committed to the A350, that would probably be at least another 10 years.
Astuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9141 posts, RR: 96 Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3383 times:
Quoting Fedex (Reply 2): I think FedEx just ordered another 6 or 8 new A306's.
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 6): As a Freighter the A300s still have a life.
It's worht bearing in mind that the recent FEDEX order also had options attached (10 I think, but don't have it to hand right now...)
Thorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3352 times:
I think the end of production is near. There are no more A310s and just a bunch of A300Fs to be built. Selling cargo planes while the passenger line is dead happens to a lot of aircraft, like the MD-11, or even the 744.
The A310s and A300 will be around as cargo planes for a very long time, considering how many DC-8s, or 727s, you still see flying cargo.
BA319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8267 posts, RR: 56 Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3274 times:
Quoting KensukeAida (Reply 7): JAL is dumping theirs next year for instance
A rather sweeping and incorrect statement.
Perhaps a few of the older non -600 models, but not many at all.
The JAL A300 & 767 fleet are both being replaced by the 787.
A319XFW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3237 times:
Quoting Astuteman (Reply 12): No, it wouldn't. It is built on the same line with the other Airbus widebodies
No it's not - they are built in a different hangar to the A330/A340 FAL.
Last I heard was that Airbus is planning on supporting them till at least 2040!
Carpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2772 posts, RR: 4 Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3208 times:
Quoting KensukeAida (Reply 7): JAL is dumping theirs next year for instance. KLM sold their A310s to FedEx. KAL has had massive reductions in their A300 fleet size.
JL is phasing out the old A300B2/B4, the -600s aren't going anywhere until the 783 arrives. JL even has the last pax A300 (for now).
KE has phased out the older -600s (mostly non -600Rs) but willl retain those that are left for sometime. Their order for 788 isn't really a good replacement option but KE does use its AB6 fleet well for those short-haul Asian flying similar to what LH does on intra-European routes. ICN nor GMP are slot constrained, so KE may opt to downgauge AB6 flying to 739 or 739X and increase frequency.
Astuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9141 posts, RR: 96 Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3177 times:
Quoting A319XFW (Reply 15): Quoting Astuteman (Reply 12):
No, it wouldn't. It is built on the same line with the other Airbus widebodies
No it's not - they are built in a different hangar to the A330/A340 FAL.
Last I heard was that Airbus is planning on supporting them till at least 2040!
Not my quote, so sorry. The quote belonged to Zvezda
Candid76 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 711 posts, RR: 5 Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3047 times:
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 6): As a Freighter the A300s still have a life.
Would have thought they were ideal for the growing India-Middle East market, maybe IC should convert them not scrap them (as per the 737s)
Quoting TrevD (Reply 9): The only reason there are more A300/A310/A306 conversions to freighter than 767's is that the residual values of the 767's are still too high to convert
Well I don't see customers queueing up at Victorville to snap up the United 762 fleet. Plus a number have been, or are being scrapped. This comment may however be basically true for 763s which are still in high demand for pax.
A342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4655 posts, RR: 4 Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2967 times:
Quoting TrevD (Reply 9): Believe we'll start seeing 767's starting to be convert in about 2 years
It has already started, but as you say, -300 conversions start now.
Quoting Candid76 (Reply 18): Well I don't see customers queueing up at Victorville to snap up the United 762 fleet. Plus a number have been, or are being scrapped.
The A306s and A310s are in higher demand as freighters as they have a wider fuselage. The 767 can take 2 88-in pallets side-by-side, but the highly curbed walls are limiting the wall-side height of those pallets VERY much. It´s not as dramatic with the busses.
Quoting A319XFW (Reply 15): Last I heard was that Airbus is planning on supporting them till at least 2040!
Maybe because some A310s will be converted to the military MRTT versions.
Candid76 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 711 posts, RR: 5 Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2870 times:
Quoting A342 (Reply 19): The A306s and A310s are in higher demand as freighters as they have a wider fuselage. The 767 can take 2 88-in pallets side-by-side, but the highly curbed walls are limiting the wall-side height of those pallets VERY much. It´s not as dramatic with the busses.
Would I be right in saying that this makes them more suitable for package companies (such as ABX and UPS) rather than general cargo airlines?
A342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4655 posts, RR: 4 Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2839 times:
Quoting Candid76 (Reply 20): Would I be right in saying that this makes them more suitable for package companies (such as ABX and UPS) rather than general cargo airlines?
Which planes do you mean here ? Both the A300/310 and the B767 are operated by package companies in large numbers.
Scorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 4934 posts, RR: 47 Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2597 times:
Quoting TrevD (Reply 9): The only reason there are more A300/A310/A306 conversions to freighter than 767's is that the residual values of the 767's are still too high to convert whereas the A300 series values have plumetted to the $10-$15M price range where it's economical to convert.
Not a financial analyst, but could the main reason be the operator base for these planes? A300 and A310 were sold mostly in Western Europe and the Far East, where most 767s were sold in North America and Japan. Airlines in Western Europe on average replace their planes earlier than US and Japanese airlines. That means relatively more A300/A310s end up on the second hand market at a younger age. More planes on offer => value goes down. US and Japanese airlines tend to keep their planes longer, thus less planes on the second hand market => higher value. This tendency has little to do with the manufacturer, as e.g. you can already see European mainline carriers starting to dump relatively new 767-300ERs (SAS, AF, KLM), something no US major is doing.
Also, don't forget that for package freighters the A300/310 can be more attractive as it offers more cargo volume than the 767, thanks to the wider fuselage.
25 Gigneil: Well, that, and the A300 has a superior cargo profile. Actually, it isn't. Great quote. You add so much to the conversation. N
26 Carpethead: You are half correct about Japanese airline. I'll give you JL because they operate planes until they cycle out. NH isn't like that. They replace plan
27 Airways45: The A310 isn't actually being sold by Airbus - the only orders on the books are ancient orders from Iraqi Airways that won't be delivered... If a cust
28 Scorpio: Thank you for another extremely valuable contribution. Everyone will no doubt see you as a shining example of how to make a post from now on. Don't y
29 Col: It is so bad you can't get hold of one for love nor money. Also, on my previous post I was trying to make the point that there are very few frames av
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