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Future EK Flights To South America Routed Via FRA?  
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5928 times:

Hi all,

these days I heard the rumor that EK is planing to route at least the plnd DXB-GRU flight via FRA....

Has anyone more information on this?

regards
Avianca

[Edited 2005-11-04 20:18:21]


Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9643 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5889 times:

FRA seems to be an interesting stopover point since it adds 2500 miles to the route.

DXB-FRA 3013 mi
FRA-GRU 6073 mi
DXB-GRU 7592 mi

A nonstop route probably would need an ultra long range aircraft as it would be the longest route operated by Emirates.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineCrazyHorse From Austria, joined Nov 2005, 328 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5875 times:

Fra seems really interesting for a stopover, but maybe MUC or ZRH is the better alternative for EK.
EK had to use a hub between SouthAmerica and DXB with full traffic rights, also between NorthAmerica and DXB.
When not EK will become much problems with the new destinations.


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5859 times:

Quoting CrazyHorse (Reply 2):
also between NorthAmerica and DXB.

I think CDG was in talk with EK for the stop destination on the California routes.



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineCrazyHorse From Austria, joined Nov 2005, 328 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5849 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 3):
I think CDG was in talk with EK for the stop destination on the California routes.

Really a good choice, but will CDG be a hub or only a stopover without full traffic rights?


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5845 times:

Quoting CrazyHorse (Reply 4):
Really a good choice, but will CDG be a hub or only a stopover without full traffic rights?

I think with full traffic rights.



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineCrazyHorse From Austria, joined Nov 2005, 328 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5837 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 5):
I think with full traffic rights.

I hope it for EK, otherwise EK will become much problems with this services. Not many pax will fly LAX-DXB-MUC, when a direct flight or a short flight will have the same price.


User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5819 times:

What about PHC as a stop ? Situated pretty much on the route, and probably some oil business ? Always good to have a connection to DXB, and I guess fuel is not that expensive there.

ASI is also close to the flight path, but is a military airfield and fuel might be expensive there. PHC divides the flight into 2 legs which can easily flown by both the A332 and B772A with full payload (I chose these two because they´re in the EK fleet, also possible with many other longrangers).

http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=d...&RANGE-COLOR=&MAP-STYLE=&ETOPS=180

However, the infrastructure at PHC has to be improved.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5802 times:

well ASI makse no sense, before this they could use the A345 on a DXB-GRU route and run nonstop.

PHC maks much more sense but I think they will go via Europe to get better loads on the flights if they could get local rights on all flight segments.

regards
Avianca



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5750 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 8):
well ASI makse no sense, before this they could use the A345 on a DXB-GRU route and run nonstop.

Remember that they are in a shortage of aircraft and that they want to start many new ULH routes, so it could be better than nothing. Even their sole A310 could do the route, given 120 minutes ETOPS certification.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 8):
PHC maks much more sense but I think they will go via Europe to get better loads on the flights if they could get local rights on all flight segments.

Via PHC thex have no competiton, which is stiff in Europe.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5738 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 9):
Via PHC thex have no competiton, which is stiff in Europe.

but is there this big demand? maybe some business travellers coming from gig to phc as you pointed out due oil business. but on flights via europe they could fill up the flight without any problem.

regards
Avianca



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineAbrelosojos From Venezuela, joined May 2005, 5100 posts, RR: 55
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5729 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 8):
PHC maks much more sense but I think they will go via Europe to get better loads on the flights if they could get local rights on all flight segments.

= I cannot see the Brazilians or the Germans granting rights to EK. Do you remember RG trying to route their NRT via ZRH and then MUC? Both times, governments stopped action ... I'd be surprised if they allowed it for EK.

-A.



Live, and let live.
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5729 times:

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 11):
I cannot see the Brazilians or the Germans granting rights to EK.

yes its hard to belive but who knows? specially brazilian government is more than intrested on a direct flight into midlle-east region from brazil.

and regarding the germans, who knows, but yes LH is strong and they will do all that EK get not the rights.

what about an alternative stop over in europe, like bru or vie?



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineCrazyHorse From Austria, joined Nov 2005, 328 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5710 times:

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 11):
= I cannot see the Brazilians or the Germans granting rights to EK. Do you remember RG trying to route their NRT via ZRH and then MUC? Both times, governments stopped action ... I'd be surprised if they allowed it for EK.

Maybe the swiss government will allow this route, after their national carrier is know under German banner.


User currently offlinePlanemannyc From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1008 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5648 times:
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I wonder if a stopover in West Africa -- ABJ, ACC, LOS (frequencies of 2-3 per week for each destination, with daily svs to Brazil) could work for them. I guess traffic between those points and Brazil won't be that high -- esp for First and Business Class.

Best,

Wasim / Planemannyc


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5635 times:
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FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Avianca (Reply 12):
yes its hard to belive but who knows? specially brazilian government is more than intrested on a direct flight into midlle-east region from brazil.

I don't know how are the relations between EK, LH and RG but i won't believe they will open a very high premium market (FRA-GIG is RG top route and FRA-GRU is ranked 2nd, also LH are doing great on both FRA-GRU flights) to a strong competitor like EK.
Yes Brazil is highly interested on the flight, but i don't believe Star will allow such a strong new player. I can't see an advantage for LH for example, to allow EK to sell tickets in Germany for Brazil. EK will be the only winner.

Avianca, with some high graduated sources from the Brazilian Government, the route that probably will be started first will be EZE-GIG-DXB. Also Argentina is looking for this flight.

Regards
Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5626 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 15):
I don't know how are the relations between EK, LH

well the relations between EK and LH are like a cat and a mouse.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 15):
but i won't believe they will open a very high premium marke

all depands what EK would offer company´s, if EK would get the rights they could get some part of the cake.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 15):
he route that probably will be started first will be EZE-GIG-DXB

would make sense regarding the oil business between UAE and Brazil.
But what I am heard is that GRU is first on the list. Time will tell.

regards
Avianca



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineTrolley Dolley From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5600 times:

The distance DXB-GRU is roughly equivalent to LAX-SYD. This is well within the range of the A345 and all 777 models except the initial non ER versions. I checked the Boeing map too with range circles from DXB. With new aircraft coming on line, so I se no reason why they'd use a ciruitous route with poor 5th right freedoms to serve the market when they can easily do it direct.

User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5605 times:

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 11):
= I cannot see the Brazilians or the Germans granting rights to EK. Do you remember RG trying to route their NRT via ZRH and then MUC? Both times, governments stopped action ... I'd be surprised if they allowed it for EK.

Japan was the "evil protectionist" in this negotiations.


User currently offlineA360 From Portugal, joined Jun 2005, 434 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5578 times:

I think a non-stop to brasil, like it was sugested by LipeGIG is much more likelly than a flight with a stop over. And a continuation of the flight to EZE is very well thought too.

EK will probably do the route using the 345 or 77W.


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5574 times:

Quoting A360 (Reply 19):
I think a non-stop to brasil, like it was sugested by LipeGIG is much more likelly than a flight with a stop over

yes as I can remember EK talked always about DXB-SouthAmerica nonstop, but than last week I heard that rumor from a very good source.

regards



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2162 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5522 times:

I doubt highly EK would go to South America unless it could be done nonstop.

User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5470 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Avianca (Reply 16):
all depands what EK would offer company´s, if EK would get the rights they could get some part of the cake.

I read again the bilateral Germany-Brazil. There is no way to open a frequency or a route in favor of a third country airliner. Its clear that a simple message from Varig or Lufthansa block any kind of traffic.

Some aspects:

EACH one of the parts reserve the right to deny or refuse service by a nominated corporate designated by the other country if:

1) Its not proved that such company keeps a large stake or its control on the hands of the nationals of the other country.

2) --- Not important ---

3) Aircraft in use on the routes between Brazil-Germany or Germany-Brazil are not operated by nationals of the other country.

I doubt LH and RG will allow EK to run FRA-Brazil flights. They have the rights to deny access to the market to any other company not from Brazil or Germany. As i know, EK is not controlled by Brazil or Deutsch Individuals. IMO, there is no way for Brazilian Government to allow EK as they nowadays are trying to help Varig (and RG best routes are on Germany).
TAM will love to fly back to FRA and will probably ask for any frequencies.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 16):
would make sense regarding the oil business between UAE and Brazil.

There are more customers than the strong Oil Business. Connections to Asia are 50% of the demand on SAA GRU-JNB flights, and they keep not the best time table for connections. EK could allow better connections and fight for this market as well other industries in South America like Civil Construction, Food, Automobiles, Shipyards, Planes. I see nowadays GIG-EZE route ahead of GRU just because it will be a strong way to fight with SAA for the connections to Asia.

Quoting A360 (Reply 19):
I think a non-stop to brasil, like it was sugested by LipeGIG is much more likelly than a flight with a stop over. And a continuation of the flight to EZE is very well thought too.

Yes, you're right, and also, this is the route on their map of future routes, not GRU.

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 18):
Japan was the "evil protectionist" in this negotiations.

That's why now RG will code share thru MUC with ANA and LH to Japan. Japan does not grant aproval to RG fly MUC-NRT (i don't understand why Brazil allows JAL to sell GRU-JFK-NRT !)

Regards
Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 5346 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 22):
I read again the bilateral Germany-Brazil. There is no way to open a frequency or a route in favor of a third country airliner. Its clear that a simple message from Varig or Lufthansa block any kind of traffic.

thanks for the info. who knows maybe they are planing instead of the pax flight a cargo flight to route via FRA???

who knows?

regards
Avianca



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineCrazyHorse From Austria, joined Nov 2005, 328 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 5314 times:

Quoting A360 (Reply 19):
I think a non-stop to brasil, like it was sugested by LipeGIG is much more likelly than a flight with a stop over. And a continuation of the flight to EZE is very well thought too.

The demand for an direct flight between Brasil and Dubai seems to be here, but EK could earn more many with stop in Europe and full traffic rights there.
Maybe Switzerland or Austria will allow stops, but EK should be not to bullish.

Manuel


25 LipeGIG : Yes Avianca, or they probably are trying to see all the possibilities EK may have. Brazil keep non-stop service in Europe not to all markets (but pro
26 Avianca : as mentioned before BRU and VIE came in my mind. regards Avianca
27 2travel2know : EK to South America via Cyprus, NAP, ATH, BEY, CAI ?? They flew to IAH via Cyprus. As for stop in West Africa; LOS, SSG, LBV and DLA comes to mind (th
28 Avianca : as I remember EK never served IAH, or was it a special flight?
29 2travel2know : A couple of years ago, I saw a Airbus 340 in IAH, it was Emirates or GULF AIR, which used to fly DXB-Larnaca-IAH twice weekly, the passengers were mo
30 Abrelosojos : = Felipe is right on the money. This is what Brasilian officials have told me as well. = Actually, behind the scene, Germany protested as well - if n
31 PPVRA : Small correction: The MUC stop-over was to PEK (which the Chinese did not grant the rights). NRT/NGO was via ZRH, and I believe RG also tried GVA, bu
32 Hardiwv : Agree. No way EK will get 5th freedom rights for such a premium market. This would be more likely. However, I also think that it is more likely the E
33 LipeGIG : Different from Embratur and Itamaraty (Foreign Relations). Both says that the flight was intended exclusively to Argentina. But negotations with Duba
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