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NWA... Serious Crackdown On Ebay Mileage Sales  
User currently offlineRedneckslim From Congo (Brazzaville), joined Sep 2005, 97 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 8149 times:

If you are thinking about buying miles on eBay for a NWA flight... Don't! I was already checked in on the 3rd for a trip to NRT when I was told NWA actively monitored the site and voided all transactions. The seller had got a ticket in my name, and all was normal, but as soon as the agent went into the system he handed me the phone, and returned my luggage! The guy who gave me the miles and sold me his white envelope had his account seized and lost 120.000 miles and I'm out two grand. I see several sites selling NWA tix, be real carefull, these worldperk people are all over this, and have even pulled pax off flights in transit overseas! Just not worth it folks!

83 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUSF100FAN From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 42 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 8080 times:

PLEASE folks ban N.W......... They don't care about nobody but themselves.........That's why their FINISHED!!!!!

User currently offlineRedneckslim From Congo (Brazzaville), joined Sep 2005, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8035 times:

The seller had paid real money to earn these miles, NWA is a real thief for pulling this petty B.S. I hope and truly pray the entire operation falls on thier sorry face..... To hell with these rotten people! Good Bye forever NWA!

User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4570 posts, RR: 18
Reply 3, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7868 times:

Instead of hiring people to make sure their customers get the least value for their money perhaps those people should be going out of thier way to make sure their customers are satisfied. Every try calling their 800#? Good luck reaching a person unless you want to buy a new ticket. Forget calling about anything else. You'll just get a message that their reps are busy and the call will be cut off. So if you absolutely want to talk to someone just press the options like you are wanting to buy a ticket. They care long enough to take your money.


Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7846 times:

Quoting Redneckslim (Reply 2):
The seller had paid real money to earn these miles, NWA is a real thief for pulling this petty B.S. I hope and truly pray the entire operation falls on thier sorry face..... To hell with these rotten people! Good Bye forever NWA!

Sorry, I would not say that Northwest is a thief, they did not steal anything, when it comes to mileage award points, the airlines have the final say.

I do not think that it is legal to sell your award miles?

The seller earned the points by purchasing legimated tickets on Northwest, the award is for him to use, or transfer the points to a friend or family member, not for re-sale to the highest bidder......



NO URLS in signature
User currently offlineUAalltheway From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7821 times:

Does anyone know if there have been recent problems doing this with selling CO miles/award tix on ebay?

User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4570 posts, RR: 18
Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7813 times:

You all remember the old days when you could find people selling their tickets in the newspapers?


Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineOOer From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1481 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7471 times:

Welcome to NWA!!!! Another way to screw you over. Technically the rules are there but shouldnt they worry more about surviving than paying people to monitor these websites? Someone paid for those plane tickets that earned those miles, and there is no way of really telling that those actual miles were used for that ticket...!!!! Could be miles for a trip in the future..and this individual decided to donate those miles this time around. Sounds like a lie...but they cant proove otherwise!!!

I have a solution to all the NWA complaints...everybody just quit flying them!!!

Then they can outsource their flight attendants, pilots, rampers, everything and nobody will give a damn!!!


User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3594 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7469 times:

Furthermore, I would say that it is both legal and ethical.

The rules about no selling or bartering award tickets have been around since the inception of the frequent flier programs. When you joined the program, these rules were integral with your acceptance of membership.

Ignorance of the rules (especially since these rules are very well known) is no excuse. If you don't like the rules, you have the option to not join the program.


User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4570 posts, RR: 18
Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7462 times:

My biggest objection is that they are trying to hack the pay of pilots, flight attendants and mechanics yet they have money to pay people to police ebay.


Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineMarshalN From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2005, 1521 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7444 times:

It's funny to read how some people here think they're entitled to miles. Since when? Miles are gifts from the airlines that are completely voluntary. They give it to you however they want, and they let you use it however THEY want. If they say you can only use your miles for flights between YUL and SYD, that's their right and you have to just deal with it. It's free -- you didn't pay for it, you paid for the ticket and your trip, and they gave you the miles as a nice way of saying "thanks, please fly us again".

A good example is BA's program -- it sucks for the leisure traveler, but it's great for the business traveler. That's how they want it, because that's the segment they want to target. Don't like it? Join some other oneworld frequent flyer program that gives you better rewards. Does that make BA unethical because they don't give you the miles that you "bought"? No.


User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4570 posts, RR: 18
Reply 11, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7432 times:

Thats not completely accurate. It isn't a gift. Its not a gift any more than a rebate for purchasing something at Best Buy is a gift. It is a promotional tool used to get you to use their product frequently. FF miles are nothing more than a rebate towards a future ticket. And its not free. You do pay for it. Its part of the price of a ticket. There is no such thing as free in business. You pay for it one way or another. But like a rebate there are terms and conditions in the program. Its like life insurance. The idea is for you to pay into the program and end up losing your coverage for one reason for another before you need the benefit. There are plenty of people that do use the miles. There are plenty others that never get enough for a free ticket.


Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4570 posts, RR: 18
Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7397 times:

I wouldn't spend that much money on ebay personally. Plus you never know. It could have been a NW agent selling you those miles. That way the airlines gets your money and you get nothing. But it would like bitching because you got shorted in a drug deal.


Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineMarshalN From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2005, 1521 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7388 times:

Quoting Indy (Reply 19):
Thats not completely accurate. It isn't a gift. Its not a gift any more than a rebate for purchasing something at Best Buy is a gift. It is a promotional tool used to get you to use their product frequently. FF miles are nothing more than a rebate towards a future ticket. And its not free. You do pay for it. Its part of the price of a ticket. There is no such thing as free in business. You pay for it one way or another. But like a rebate there are terms and conditions in the program. Its like life insurance. The idea is for you to pay into the program and end up losing your coverage for one reason for another before you need the benefit. There are plenty of people that do use the miles. There are plenty others that never get enough for a free ticket.

Yes and no -- when you get the miles you also agree to the terms and conditions, stipulating how these miles can be used. It's not a "trap" for NW to say you can't sell your miles -- that's the terms and conditions you agreed upon when joining the FF program and that's how it shall be done. People who break those rules automatically forefeit their right to the miles, as redneck did here.

There is no monetary value attached to the miles, so in that sense, it's free. They don't owe you anything really -- if they go bankrupt, FF miles aren't worth a dime.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7378 times:

Quoting OOer (Reply 15):
and there is no way of really telling that those actual miles were used for that ticket...!!!! Could be miles for a trip in the future..and this individual decided to donate those miles this time around. Sounds like a lie...but they cant proove otherwise!!!

Ha Ha Ha . . . .   

Ok, let me take you through this real slow; in plain, non-Vulcan english.

a. Numbnut redeems XXX NW WorldPerks miles for a ticket to NRT in RedNecks name.

b. NW issues ticket.

c. NW sees a transaction on EBay between Numbnut and RedNeck for an envelope, that cost $2000 . . . oh, and the bonus is Numbnut is throwing in a ticket to NRT.

d. RedNeck shows up at the airport.

e. NW has his name in the database - illegal transaction of NW WorldPerks miles.

f. NW cancels said ticket, cancels said WorldPerks account, etc, yadda, yadda, blah, blah.

They key here OOer is paras a and c. Read them to yourself, a couple times perhaps . . . 2 + 2 = 4, even today . . .

Quoting Coa764 (Reply 20):

   Excellent use of one of my favorite emoticons    . . . although I usually reserve that one for the Mayor of New Orleans these days.

[Edited 2005-11-06 08:23:47]

User currently offlineFilejw From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 359 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7352 times:

All you have to do is read the rules boys,I'm a NAW employee but its the same as if you brought a coupon to my pizza shop.No resale is no resale.

User currently offlinePlanespotting From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3529 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7325 times:

I think the legal precedent would indicate that these frequent flier miles fall under the same category as coupons (as Filejw pointed out). The cash value of most coupons is 1/20th of a cent or less. Technically, a free round trip could also be worth that amount of money as "resale", since that would be one "coupon" in an entire transaction.

it's not the sweetest rule in NWA's book, but it is legal.



Do you like movies about gladiators?
User currently offlineAAFLT1871 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2333 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7320 times:

Quoting Filejw (Reply 24):
,I'm a NAW employee

Really? Are you sure?


My question is how did NW get the names of the people involved off of eBay? I mean did the guy post his FF # on there or?



Where did everybody go?
User currently offlineSu From Russia, joined Apr 2004, 360 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 7295 times:

I can't believe people actually justifying this post. When you sign up for a mileage program with any airlines you agree to abide with that program's rules. And in every program it says that selling, bargaining of miles and certificates are forbidden. I am not sure why is the author not happy for loosing money? As it was said in previous posts read the rules.


"Life is too short to take it serious..."
User currently offlineApodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4287 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 7201 times:

Ok we all know that Northwest Airlines is not the best airline in the world for a number of reasons. That being said, Every airline has the same rule about sale of miles. If you did this as an AAdvantage member, or a SkyMiles member, or a Mileage Plus member, for example, you could be caught and suffer the same fate. Also remember that management reserves the right in most cases to suspend any account for any reason. That is normally listed in the terms of membership. Northwest in my opinion in this situation did nothing unethical or illegal, they are simply using their right to enforce their rules of membership, as any airline has.

It seems to me that because of the hate for northwest on this forum, somebody posted this because it was Northwest and is trying to make them look even worse. If this happened on American, United or Continental, I guarantee you wouldn't have all the negativity toward those carriers as you do toward Northwest simply because of company image on this forum. Its sad really.


User currently offlineHS748 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 7182 times:

The ticket was fraudulently obtained. Why do so many people here defend such criminal activity?

User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 21, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 6812 times:

Quoting Indy (Reply 21):
It could have been a NW agent selling you those miles. That way the airlines gets your money and you get nothing.

That would be criminal fraud.


User currently offlineHugo From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 395 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 6528 times:

While I can understand the argument that rules are rules and that the ticket in question was obtained "wrongfully", I feel that NW is not being pragmatic about this incident and their current situation. By their punitive actions on the seller, they just lost an important frequent flying customer.

The reality is that many frequent flyers cannot use their miles and turn their road-warrior lifestyles to their advantage by selling reward travel. I believe airlines put in the non-sale clause to increase revenues by making it more likely for people to have to purchase a ticket. I wonder, however, if this rule really grounded and practical...the frequent flyer who sells surplus miles is probably far more important as a revenue source than the guy who buys travel on ebay.

Given these desperate times for NW, it seems really crazy that they will go to great efforts to kill the goose that laid the golden egg.


User currently offlineAndrewUber From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2528 posts, RR: 40
Reply 23, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 6150 times:

Quoting USF100FAN (Reply 1):
PLEASE folks ban N.W......... They don't care about nobody but themselves.........That's why their FINISHED!!!!!

Sounds like the words of a die-hard (and unemployed) AMFA member to me.... sarcastic 



I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
User currently offlineHS748 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5997 times:

Quoting AndrewUber (Reply 23):
Sounds like the words of a die-hard (and unemployed) AMFA member to me....

And for those of us not from the US, AMFA stands for......?


25 Post contains images BR715-A1-30 : Good Guy Bad Guy One can turn a bankrupt airline into a great airline The other can turn a great airline into a bankrupt airline.
26 727EMflyer : Well Ebay is more sophisticated than your local flea market. They actually cooperate with industry to safeguard against fraud, like this, forgeries,
27 Post contains links Dougloid : Comin' right up. http://www.amfanatl.org/
28 Aa757first : AMFA is the mechanic's union at Northwest. They are famous for getting 88% of their workforce laid off instead of the 51% the company offered. When w
29 Post contains images Abrelosojos : =
30 Post contains links Toering : My whole take on the deal is that NWA does not want you to use someone else's miles only because they have a big push going right now, charging you to
31 Boeing727flyer : This guy obtained his miles by flying and paying to fly. I just feel NW are being way over the top on this. I will never fly on that airline again. Ju
32 Supa7E7 : Huh? NW did go bankrupt. FF miles are just as good at before. Same goes for UA, US, TZ.
33 Ikramerica : The same could be asked concerning internet downloading of music and movies... Then never FLY again, because it isn't exclusive to NW. They all have
34 Ned Kelly : NW Employees pay for 1 days work to police e-bay = $100 (approx) NW Potential lost revenue saved = $2000 (approx) NW Potential profit = $1900 (approx
35 Jyatlantic : Not really. NW wouldn't have gained the $2000 b/c the member would have redeemed his ticket for free anyhow.
36 Ned Kelly : Yes I am aware that the tickets are normally free & they don't generate revenue in their own right. However if the flight was full and they pax was t
37 HPRamper : I thought there was some way you could transfer worldperks miles to another account, and that it was a one-time only thing, you couldn't do it multipl
38 Jyatlantic : Wow, the starter of this thread was banned the day of this posting. Does this thread violate forum rules?
39 MEA-707 : not really. FF systems count on a substantial part of the mileage not being used, as the original collector is too busy or forgets about it. So the $
40 Bobnwa : What airlines that allow FF tickets to be sold will you be flying on?
41 Jyatlantic : Personally I think NW had no right to seize the miles. In legal terms, the white envelope was sold, and the miles were included as a free gift or ser
42 Jyatlantic : I know eBay will reveal addresses and phone numbers, but will Paypal do so?
43 HPRamper : Isn't Paypal owned by Ebay?
44 777STL : Moral to the story: If you're going to sell miles, do it in a more discrete manner.
45 Jyatlantic : Yes, but there may be some from of "privay agreement" that Paypal exercises but eBay doesn't.
46 Post contains images MarshalN : Sorry, I meant if an airline goes into liqiudation. I forgot bankruptcy rules in the US are pretty messed up I think his language probably did it, no
47 Simpilicity : It is not illegal to to sell award miles/points, it's only against the airlines rules. THEIR RULES AREN'T LAW, THEY ARE JUST AN AIRLINE, THEY CAN'T M
48 BoomBoom : If eBay feels such transactions are fraud, they they shouldn't allow them to proceed in the first place. I have seen many examples where eBay has pul
49 Devil505x : Yeah and remember the USairways luggage fiasco 2 years ago. They don't care about anyone either.
50 Simpilicity : Who says these "transactions" are fraudulent? It's not for eBay or the airlines to make this determination. The airlines in question are acting as ju
51 BoomBoom : I was going off the premise that 727EMflyer put forth: If ebay is going to cooperate with NW to bust award sellers, they ought not allow it in the fi
52 Simpilicity : Ebay have to be careful in making such determinations, especially as it's not illegal, although it might repeat MIGHT be against NW rules. Repeating
53 BoomBoom : It's always against the rules to SELL FF awards!
54 LUVRSW : It was later than that, wasn't it? Maybe 2003 or 2004?
55 Post contains images ZKEOJ : My : Couldn't agree more... If you think the rules suck, join another program! You don't pay for it. You pay for your flights where you accrue the mil
56 Luv2fly : I think you are right!
57 ETStar : How does NW know who the seller is and who the buyer is? Prolly needs a court order or something similar to get such information from eBay/Paypal.
58 Goingboeing : Bravo to Northwest. It's well within their rights to do that, it was in the verbage of the agreement for the FF program that tickets could not be bart
59 UAcosCS : It is not just NWA. I am not a huge fan of NWA but they have a point. It doesn't matter if you paid money for these tickets to earn miles, rules are
60 Incitatus : It's amusing how selling FF tickets becomes fraud and even criminal activity so quickly. It's against the rules, only. Everybody engaging is such sale
61 Post contains links ANCFlyer : I had three posts in this thread deleted for housekeeping reasons . . . . Amongst those posts were extractions of the Frequent Flier rules for AS, UA,
62 Malaysia : I have seen worse stuff such as people trying to sell Buddy Passes, that is worse sounding to me, cause you still have to pay the airline a service fe
63 Goaliemn : Its very possible that the seller sold his miles to 3 or 4 people.. if NWA sees a FF with numerous tickets with different names, going to and from "od
64 ContnlEliteCMH : And yet we have some people on this thread parsing words about "legal" and "judge, jury, and executioner." As if law and due process had anything to
65 DLPMMM : Actually, the FF credit card and other affinity programs make the airlines a raft load of money, and is probably the most profitable part of the lega
66 Jyatlantic : eBay will provide contact info to airlines when requested.
67 Wobbles : While I understand that the thread starter was wrong in doing what he did, NW should put more energy into other things, unless Ebay went to them (ratt
68 Alfa75 : I'm suprised. NW is certainly not my favorite, but I actually had a good experience with their 800# recently.
69 Simpilicity : Yes but who says that the "seller" (what the defintiion of a seller) has provided eBay with correct or genuine contact details. By simply putting an
70 FCYTravis : Nobody with a WorldPerks account is anonymous, Simpilicity. Nobody who travels, period, is anonymous. Not anymore. All Northwest has to do is find the
71 Post contains links OOer : So if Ebay provided another corporation your personal informations...isn't that a violation of their confidentiality agreement you accept when you sig
72 Post contains links ANCFlyer : OOer . . . Not a chance . . . . Extracted from your link: detect and protect us against error, fraud and other criminal activity; Legal Requests. eBay
73 UAcosCS : But you can sell a standby First class possibility for $50.00 and you get a lot of folks buying buddy passes. If your name doesnt match your ID you d
74 Goingboeing : If you nab the buyer, they won't try it again. If enough people end up paying somebody else and getting pulled aside at the airport, pretty soon folk
75 Vfw614 : Just for the sake of clarity: If you are a member of FFP, you have entered into a contract with the carrier and accepted the rules that govern the con
76 BoomBoom : If I'm not mistaken, .06 x 15000 = 900 cents = $9.
77 EA CO AS : True - the miles don't even really belong to the account holder. From NW's Terms and Conditions: Accrued mileage credit and award certificates and aw
78 Burnsie28 : Some posts that were deleted were probably the cause of that, he was basically calling everyone at NW derogatory names and such.
79 LUVRSW : I believe a couple years ago, someone at NW was pinched for this. After that they changed their rules, all buddy pass pax must fly WITH the employee,
80 ContnlEliteCMH : Did you form this brilliant thought before you read the FF agreement, or despite reading it? Be careful how you answer; neither reflect well upon you
81 UAcosCS : You always have a way of responding, this is right on. You pretty much answered the thread.
82 NWADC9 : Yes. Richard Anderson was hired as CEO around 2000-2001. This fool running the airline was hired around 2004. Anderson resigned near October 2004.
83 Goaliemn : A friend was working there at the time.. Someone was selling buddy passes online and got caught. They were initially caught because of the odd city p
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