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FLYi Files For Bankruptcy  
User currently offlineN1786b From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 560 posts, RR: 17
Posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 15143 times:

FLYi files for bankruptcy

Mon Nov 7, 2005 6:40 AM ET
NEW YORK, Nov 7 (Reuters) - FLYi, Inc. (FLYI.O: Quote, Profile, Research), parent of low-fare carrier Independence Air, on Monday said it and its subsidiaries filed to restructure aircraft leases and other obligations under Chapter 11 of the U.S. Bankruptcy Code.

http://today.reuters.com/investing/f...ANSPORT-FLYI-BANKRUPTCY-URGENT.XML


- n1786b

164 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIloveboeing From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 798 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 15103 times:

This doesn't suprise me.....I'm amazed that they made it this far without filing....

I hope their restructuring goes well and I hope they don't go Chapter 7....

Maybe a good first step will be to dump all the CRJs......they're not at all suitable for low-fare operations.....the A319s are much better on fuel.....


User currently offlineTallguy14 From United States of America, joined Jul 2002, 228 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 15062 times:
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What a mess! Did anyone really think their business model would be successful? My thoughts are with all the employees who are now stuck in bankruptcy limbo. Good luck to you all.

User currently offlineBrokenrecord From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 772 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 15016 times:

Finally...

However, I see no way they can restructure. They have too few Airbii, and IMO, this effort is too little, too late.

Hopefully those employed by Flyi can find other employment in short order.


User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13169 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 14979 times:

If I heard CNN correctly, they filed this morning in the USBC District of Northern Virginia. The biz commentator noted they had problems including computer boo-boos that sold flights for like $5 and they had to honor those sales. I think many here would agree that the creation of FLYi was a bad idea and would never work. I wonder how long to Chapter 7/liquidation?

User currently offlineDtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1166 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 14948 times:

Looks like the whole things for sale ,not just a reorg. From AP news-(FLYi said it will seek court approval to auction the business to potential investors or purchasers, which would be expected to be completed within 60 days.) Good luck selling this one to anybody. Been a loser from day one.

User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26017 posts, RR: 50
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 14930 times:

FLYi unfortunately has been a classic case of management incompetence.
From the initial business plan, to its execution the carrier has made one error after another. While they might be somewhat forgiven in the cost department due to the spike in fuel cost, they did not even come close on their revenue projections either.
Never in my life I have seen an airline with such terrible operating margins be reported quarter after quarter.

FLYi went from the best financed start up in history with $350 million in cash (Jetblue only started with $130million)to only having $24 million in the bank today. Stock holders have seen their share value plunge from near $30 to just under 20 cents as of recent.

What a shame for all parties involved.

[Edited 2005-11-07 13:50:20]


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineTallguy14 From United States of America, joined Jul 2002, 228 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 14923 times:
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Once again, it's sad that another carrier has had its undoing at the expense of its employees! It seemed that the Atlantic Coast pilots and management thumbed their noses at UA and were eager to disentangle themselves from the mother ship. They were absolutely convinced that they would be successful. Arrogance and pride seemed to override common sense, in my opinion.

I don't know who was ladle-ing the Company Kool Aid to the pilot group, but they bought it hook, line and sinker. I'm no expert but it seemed clear to me that it just couldn't work.

A friend of mine, a copilot on the CRJ with Independence Air, was furloughed last year and has since found a much better flying job in the corporate world.

Braniff, Eastern........


User currently offlineFlightopsguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 348 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 14891 times:

The $24M was as of Sept.30. It must be less today. The auction sounds like either an asset sale or a white knight. Also sounds like if they cannot do this auction within 60 days, something else must happen.

It's not unusual for a Chapter 11 filing to roll into a 7 or other liquidation.

But maybe there is a pre-planned sale in the works.



A300-330 BAC111/146/J31/41 B99/1900 CV580 B707-777 DC8/9/10 L188/1011 FH227/28/100 SB340 DO228 EMB2/170 CR2-900 SH330-60
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26017 posts, RR: 50
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 14874 times:

Press release says "Unrestricted cash as of the day of filing is $24.0 million."

http://www.flyi.com/company/pressarchive/2005/nov/110705.aspx



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineGSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3096 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 14865 times:

Is there ANY hope for this organization? I'd hate to see them go away completely.


Finally made it to an airline mecca!
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 14807 times:

As badly as I feel for the employees, I have some concerns that venture capitalists are not going to be lining up with offers of DIP financing. If the biz plan has a 109% breakeven load factor (the last number I heard), it indicates the biz plan is fundamentally flawed, and that has to be fixed before anyone can/will lend them any more funds.

Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 1):
This doesn't suprise me.....I'm amazed that they made it this far without filing....

Ditto, times 2. I would have though they would have taken refuge in 11 before the laws changed in October. Unless I missed one somewhere, FlyI will be the first airline that filed under the new laws...


User currently offlineLN-MOW From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 1908 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 14787 times:

I'm surprised that there is enough money in the company to even allow Ch. 11 .. Flightopsguy is probably right.

I wonder if there's any connection between this and Sir Richard's announcement yesterday that Virgin America is on the move ... ?? I can see him picking up AOC and Airbii at the auction and let the rest go Ch. 7 .... A quick way in ..



- I am LN-MOW, and I approve this message.
User currently offlineIloveboeing From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 798 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 14752 times:

Quoting LN-MOW (Reply 12):
I wonder if there's any connection between this and Sir Richard's announcement yesterday that Virgin America is on the move

That could be a possibility.....I heard about them originally wanting to start in SFO, but if they buy Independence, IAD could also be a good base......


User currently offlineLN-MOW From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 1908 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 14696 times:

He wouldn't want Independence. He would want the AOC and the aircraft. He already has Management and concept in place, no reason for him to want anything else.
IAD? Why? Why would VA make money in IAD when DH couldn't?



- I am LN-MOW, and I approve this message.
User currently offlineBnatraveler From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 412 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 14668 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

interesting if it is Branson

DJ = Virgin Blue
DH = ACA/Independence/future Virgin America?


User currently offlineIloveboeing From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 798 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 14666 times:

Quoting LN-MOW (Reply 14):
IAD? Why? Why would VA make money in IAD when DH couldn't?

I think it's quite possible.......if they use more efficient narrowbodies, like the A320 or B737, with PTVs, etc, then they can have low-fares and be a formidable competitor to UA and others at IAD.....

Indepedence's major flaw was Regional Jets. As long as they use larger aircraft, which have lower operating costs, VA should be fine....


User currently offlineATWZW170 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 904 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 14473 times:

You know Mesa is going to put in some bid to buy the carrier, but for a lot less then what it was offering last year. I don't think FlyI really has anything to offer...a hand full of A319's and a bunch of CRJ's that no one wants. It's sad to see this happen but maybe if they had a better fare structure and weren't offering $29 fares they could have made it a bit longer....I pretty much agree that Chapter 7 is just around the corner.


Success is getting what you want...happiness is liking what you get
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8602 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 14454 times:
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Quoting ATWZW170 (Reply 17):
I don't think FlyI really has anything to offer...a hand full of A319's

are the A319's actually FlyI's to offer though ? I was under the impression ( and of course I could be mistaken ) that everything was leased in which case there are no assets for anyone to be interested in buying - can they legally sell the leases ?



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineIloveboeing From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 798 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 14448 times:

Quoting ATWZW170 (Reply 17):
You know Mesa is going to put in some bid to buy the carrier, but for a lot less then what it was offering last year. I don't think FlyI really has anything to offer...a hand full of A319's and a bunch of CRJ's that no one wants. It's sad to see this happen but maybe if they had a better fare structure and weren't offering $29 fares they could have made it a bit longer....I pretty much agree that Chapter 7 is just around the corner.

And if they had ditched the CRJ's right from the start and stuck with the A319s and added Satellite TV, then they would have had lower costs and got the demand needed with low fares, and they'd be doing much better.


User currently offlineSunking737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2057 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 14446 times:

They could end up on Ebay with that little commuter FLORIDA COASTAL.


Just an MSPAVGEEK
User currently offlineFlightopsguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 348 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 14347 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 9):
Press release says "Unrestricted cash as of the day of filing is $24.0 million."

You are absolutely correct. My error.

I'm not sure what assets they can sell. My understanding was that pretty much everything except the Dornier parts already are mortgaged. The company name? The FF database? LGA slots? What else does the company have clear title to that could be sold on an unrestricted basis? I doubt Mesa or any other small jet provider would want the A319's. And again, I don't see where these aircraft are FlyI's to sell.

I would think that the leaseholders on the aircraft and real estate would have a say about auctioning their assets.



A300-330 BAC111/146/J31/41 B99/1900 CV580 B707-777 DC8/9/10 L188/1011 FH227/28/100 SB340 DO228 EMB2/170 CR2-900 SH330-60
User currently offlineKohflot From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 14346 times:

So in the next 60 days, they have to find a 'high bidder' for the few remaining assets.. as mentioned, are their aircraft even considered assets? They're all leased. Seems like the only thing left is the A concourse at IAD.

At the same time, they need to try to prevent a 'brain drain'. Who is going to stay on purpose? Especially after the paycut?


User currently offlineFlightopsguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 348 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 14283 times:

Quoting Kohflot (Reply 22):
So in the next 60 days, they have to find a 'high bidder' for the few remaining assets.. as mentioned, are their aircraft even considered assets? They're all leased. Seems like the only thing left is the A concourse at IAD.

Especially when someone like Branson could negotiate great leases with Airbus directly on brand new airplanes. Isn't most of FlyI's airbus fleet mortgaged to the Airbus financial arm, rather than GECAS or some other entity?

I don't believe they own the actual real estate or the building of Concourse A at IAD, but would appreciate some clarification on this. More likely just leasing the space....may own some of the interior stuff (gate seating, etc.).



A300-330 BAC111/146/J31/41 B99/1900 CV580 B707-777 DC8/9/10 L188/1011 FH227/28/100 SB340 DO228 EMB2/170 CR2-900 SH330-60
User currently offlineORD From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 1389 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 14182 times:

Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 16):
Indepedence's major flaw was Regional Jets. As long as they use larger aircraft, which have lower operating costs, VA should be fine....

Regardless of costs, there is only so much business to go around in the Washington area. United has a very loyal following. It seems that the market there cannot support two hub carriers. As for connecting travelers through IAD, there are a ton of competitive hubs up and down the east coast (perhaps too many).


25 Post contains links Kohflot : A quick Google provides this: http://www.flyi.com/company/pressarchive/1999/gen-concourse.html "The airport authority will provide the financing for t
26 Tbird : Not sure if any of you noticed but they didn't mention anything about DIP financing which most airlines receive when they are in Chap 11 to help them
27 Zvezda : It would be interesting if UA were to buy them.
28 Post contains images Lightsaber : definitely, good luck to all the employees at D. Interesting facts. I'll agree with the chorus. I'm surprised Boyd hasn't written anything about this
29 FLAIRPORT : maybe VA could by FlyI's A319 assets and gates and DH can continue operating a RJ product, but this time a new RJ concept as a connection carrier to U
30 DAYflyer : I think that is a wise staring point. Perhaps America West could pick them up as well, since US has a good presence at National airport.
31 Bicoastal : United just recently rebid its regional network. There's nothing left for DH to take. Mesa, Skywest and others have finalized the new routes/contract
32 Gman3 : Also we at United are hiring flight attendants that will most likely be based at IAD. Keep checking the papers and website for open house info.
33 MiCorazonAzul : so that would explain the employees' long faces while riding to the employee parking lot......and those ATA people aren't smiling much these days eith
34 Jerion : From the FLYI website: We've joined United, US Airways, Delta, Northwest and ATA who have recently been or are still operating under Chapter 11 of the
35 Clickhappy : does this mean no more larry_da_liquidator??? He was a daily source of entertainment for me!
36 N723GW : I am not surprised...however, they seem to be so small that it should be (and I say SHOULD) be a little easier to clean up their mess rather then UA/T
37 Post contains images Tozairport : You know, it's funny. Bubble jet, DAL, and NWA all based their business plans on one fundamental idea - kill United. AMR went on running a business an
38 Post contains images B777A340Fan : Not to sound like a smart ass, but DUH! I (an engineer) could've told Flyi that their business plan wouldn't float, it was a ship sinking day after da
39 N1120A : Restructure what may I ask? The leases for a handful of A319s? Or perhaps CRJs that don't have lease rates that high anyway and that even if they wer
40 Airlinelover : Independance has been a company doomed from the get-go. When they were still ACA, they screwed things up big time, but unfortunately the management is
41 UA744Flagship : It seems that the company has been planning on a DH reduction/elimination for next year. As many know, lots of F/As are being hired for next summer's
42 Cloudy : There's not really much for him to say that he hasn't already said many times in the past few weeks. He hasn't commented on Virgin much, not it a lon
43 IRelayer : This is completely ridiculous. FLYi should be OUT OF BUSINESS starting yesterday...and now they are "restructuring"? I doubt there is much of anything
44 Starrion : I'm as surprised as anyone that they got DiP financing. What assets did they have to put up that wasn't morgaged to the hilt already?
45 Kiwiandrew : I haven't read anywhere that they have got DiP financing - have I missed a post somewhere ?
46 LN-MOW : He'll find another board .. he's already been on the UAL board, but I think it's too quiet for him...
47 N766UA : Too bad, so sad. I really feel sorry for the employees at Indy. With the exception of their IAD staff I think they have some of the hardest working in
48 Post contains links A330323X : Their fleet plan of the minute is apparently for 30 CRJs and 12 A319s. This document also talks about how it was everyone else's fault (fuel, United,
49 Skytony : It is quite interesting to be reading these posts saying that Independence Air will be going into chapter 7 and they have a horrible business plan, wh
50 PlanesNTrains : Sweet, coming from N766"UA". As long as ATA, NW, DL, US, et al get to, why should FlyI be any different? Well if management were the only ones suffer
51 HPRamper : Might F9 be interested in the assets? The Airbus fits them and the CRJs would be a boon for their JetExpress ops which are currently hurting for aircr
52 Quickmover : I don't think the engines on the 319s are the same. As for the rjs, nobody wants the 50 seaters because of the high per passenger costs. 70 or 90 seat
53 Post contains images Mariner : You are correct. Correct again. One mo' time - correct! cheers mariner
54 BigGSFO : How many RJ's does Indy have...?
55 Post contains images Cactus739 : yeah, that would have helped. I can hear the champagne corks popping on 44th Street in Phoenix... Aviation enthusiast huh? Aviation enthusiast huh? I
56 IRelayer : The airlines you listed actually have assets to borrow against and are viable businesses with long histories (with the possible exception of ATA, dep
57 Post contains links PITrules : The whole point behind the filing, to get rid of CRJs. As far as assets allowing CH11 (where are all the A.net experts who said last month Ch.11 isn'
58 BigGSFO : Would AA Eagle be a contender to pick some of these RJ's up?
59 Post contains links Mariner : Yes - but they also have $455 million in liabilities - same link. More importantly, they have $24 million in cash, to keep flying, and they have no D
60 PITrules : Ch.11 will help reduce or eliminate many of those liabilites.
61 KcrwFlyer : Anyone think they might adopt Larger Regional Jets? Maybe they could start some p2p routes that dont have any competetion from DL or another major.
62 Mariner : So - Mr. Skeen is wrong? cheers mariner
63 Dtw9 : It may help to eliminate many of their liabilities, but at the same time their assets are now only worth what someone is willing to pay.The only thing
64 StuckInCA : I (sort of) understand the relative importance of Ch 11 to the economy - - or at least the argument for it, but I can't help but be disturbed by this
65 PlanesNTrains : No need - I understand everything you're saying. The point is that every time an airline goes BK, there is someone on this board who proclaims "XYZ A
66 COEWR : I had a chance to fly them from EWR-JAX just after they started...awesome service...I was booked from JAX-EWR to have over an our layover in IAD. My
67 PlanesNTrains : I wonder the same thing every time. It's a bummer that the carrier with what most consider a good product and great service ends up biting it. Back t
68 HPRamper : I didn't know all they had was the CR2. As far as I'm concerned the CR2 is worthless with too high a breakeven point. So count out QX snapping those
69 Commavia : Eagle wants absolutely nothing to do with them. Eagle is committed to Embraer's 50-seat EMB145, not the Bombardier CRJ200s flyI uses, and Eagle actua
70 Post contains links and images Lightsaber : I wonder how much of that $378 million in assets is truly unencumbered... IIRC correctly, Indy pledged a lot for collateral. However, I was wrong wit
71 PITrules : Wrong about what? The link you provided does not quote Skeen discussing $455 million in liabilites. Are you quoting Skeen possibly selling the compan
72 N908AW : IIRC, DH's chapter 11 reorganization is going to be slightly harder because of the new rules, correct? I'm going to have to be crude here. Independenc
73 Gigneil : They're not going to try. At all. They are going to liquidate... the press release even says so, Mariner is right. This is the best thing. N
74 Mariner : Um - that was the basis of my original post. cheers mariner
75 Simairlinenet : It's about time. Let's review the problems in Independence's business model that I came up with at the time of their rebranding: -Model tried and fail
76 BoomBoom : I thought the new rules only apply to personal bankruptcy...
77 N908AW : Somebody here said NW and DL filed prior to October 15th because that was when these new laws came into effect...
78 N766UA : You're a friggin' idiot if you're assuming that my username has anything to do with my opinions. #1 N766UA is for the airplane, not the airline, and
79 Gigneil : They're not reorganizing. They are liquidating, but under their own control as long as they can. That is all. N
80 DCA-ROCguy : Eagle wants absolutely nothing to do with them. Eagle is committed to Embraer's 50-seat EMB145, not the Bombardier CRJ200s flyI uses, and Eagle actual
81 PITrules : And the basis of my original reply to you was that Ch.11 can/will be used to help eliminate or reduce the liabilities you brought up in reply 59.
82 Jalto27R : $24 million? That's it?! Wow! I knew this company was doing bad, but that just is..horrific. I'm sorry to see an airline go down, but I think everyone
83 PlanesNTrains : Not just them, though. You can also thank the lenders, lessors, etc who continue to allow these carriers to survive rather than pull the plug. True,
84 N766UA : Ah, I think I get it now. Sorry bout that, I'm just kind of sick of the ill-informed associations so I get ticked. No harm no foul.
85 Mariner : The only reason I raised the liabilities is because you completely ignored them. Your post #57: It is called balance - as in "balance sheet". Now, pe
86 Post contains links Redngold : I don't know if anyone else has mentioned this, but if Mesa was to pick up some of the CRJs, they could fold them into their new Hawaii division: http
87 WGW2707 : If he is concerned about shareholder value - which, as the CEO of a publicly traded company he should be - why did he not do this months ago? Well I t
88 Mariner : I think that would be almost impossible to prove. He would claim - as he is claiming - that it might all have been different, or at least, surviveabl
89 Flightopsguy : Good post. I'll bet that you see some shareholder lawsuits. Who was the speculator that bought lots of their stock about 6 months ago? I think their
90 Jetdeltamsy : Skeen deserves to be strung up by his b@##$. He burned through hundreds of millions of dollars of stockholder equity. This bankruptcy should have occu
91 WGW2707 : What happens if their stock (during the next 60 days) goes down below a value of 1 cent? Nothing. It's already considered "valueless." Some morons tra
92 Post contains links Mariner : Indy has already said the stock will "likely" be cancelled. http://biz.yahoo.com/bizj/051107/1187810.html?.v=1 But it was going to be delisted anyway
93 ContnlEliteCMH : I have -- twice. Both times I selected them to avoid walk-up fares at other airlines, including my preferred choice. One of those times was two days
94 Post contains links United787 : According to my understanding of this Crain's article, it appears as though the decision to liquidate through an auction has already been decided. htt
95 WGW2707 : It wsn't simply a fleet issue, it was an obsession with turf/market share. I dread to think how much money was wasted in the attempts to control MKE a
96 WGW2707 : My puzzle becomes simply this - I wonder why the BOD assumes that the CEO who led them into bankruptcy is the right person to lead them out. Fundament
97 AJRfromSYR : I have a ticket with them in April, what is the possible outcomes besides being put on standby through another carrier?
98 Mariner : Given how much money the airline is losing, I would suggest those decisions were seriously flawed. Any organization that is losing such amounts of mo
99 Gsoflyer : In all honesty, I think they should be focusing on Greensboro, Huntsville, Knoxville. They need to drop routes that have a load of competition from Je
100 WGW2707 : Given how much money the airline is losing, I would suggest those decisions were seriously flawed. The cost of aggressively pricing select competitive
101 Mariner : I am not suggesting that it accounts for all of the losses. Everyone is reporting very high load factors and fuel has only been an issue for the past
102 WGW2707 : Everyone is reporting very high load factors and fuel has only been an issue for the past (less than) two years. The problem is that the demand curve
103 Supa7E7 : In terms of corporate planning, one airline made a material bet that oil prices would rise. Southwest bet on it and won. Another airline made a calcul
104 Mariner : To remove it from Northwest, whose service level is so low it is uninteresting to me, and transfer it to Delta, we are still seeing the "fly everywhe
105 Galapagapop : Is it me or is "Die" the absolute worst and most crude word to use in this situation, I feel like I'm listening to a 4 year old. Comment all you want
106 Post contains images UncGSO : Not good news to me. I have my 1st flight on them on Friday (GSO-IAD-GSO) and my brother just booked with them for December (IAD-GSO-IAD)... hopefully
107 PlanesNTrains : I'm not sure if that is a result of demand, or if it is a result of low-fare competition re-conditioning people's price expectations. As Mariner poin
108 Drewfly : What about United picking up Flyi's A139s? They have IAEs, so engine commodity wouldn't be an issue. Cheaper way to continue updating the UA fleet?
109 NASBWI : Keep up that excitement; you won't be disappointed! We may or may not be around for much longer, but while we're here, enjoy the flight. Cheers,
110 UAPremierGuy : Any guesses on how much fares will go up at DCA/IAD as a result of this filing? BWI is a separate issue given WN's presence there, obviously. Never ha
111 SHUPirate1 : If I am not mistaken, didn't United add about 75 daily flights (between themselves and their United Express partners) from their Northern Virginia In
112 Uadc8contrail : SHUPirate1, i wouldnt want to admit that ual was going to run to ord with their tail between their legs and close up shop.....unlike those nice indy f
113 WGW2707 : I'm not sure if that is a result of demand, or if it is a result of low-fare competition re-conditioning people's price expectations. LCCs re-conditio
114 SHUPirate1 : Why not? It's something called humility. I was wrong, I've been wrong before, I'll be wrong again. I'm just not afraid to point out that I've made mi
115 HarvardMan99 : I'm thrilled that they are going out of business. Far too much capacity in the markets. Their just a speck on the screen but too many airlines is just
116 WGW2707 : I'm just not afraid to point out that I've made mistakes. Indeed, the willingness to concede when you are wrong is a mark of maturity. Anyway I hope
117 WGW2707 : I'm thrilled that they are going out of business. Kind of a mean-spirited attitude, don't you think? Do you have any sympathy at all for employees/cre
118 Mariner : But that is the point - they are not making profits. Northwest and Delta have shared that philosophy - and are losing king's ransoms because of it. "
119 WGW2707 : False cause fallacy (and not even a complex cause at that, but apparently a post hoc). You cannot assume that one event was caused by a preceeding ev
120 Flightopsguy : Good observations. I have to go with Mike Boyd's theory that the classic hub and spoke system has the best opportunity for profits in the future. It'
121 Miguelss : Those are sad news indeed. This was my first good experience about service from an airline. Also, FLYi brought low fare carrier to cities as for examp
122 Post contains links Mariner : You keep putting words into my mouth. I did not suggest that there was any relationship between hub and spoke systems and unprofitability. More worry
123 Post contains images StuckInCA : He used AA and CO as examples. Are you using financial performance of DL and NW to refute his statement (that hub-spoke does not equal money losing),
124 Mariner : I was deeply concerned by the representation of my position. I do not believe - and have not said - that there is any relationship between hub/spoke
125 Post contains links KarlB737 : Courtesy: The State Independence Air To Fly Under Bankruptcy http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/13109065.htm
126 FLAIRPORT : funny, on the Price is Right, they gave away a trip to Washington DC from LAX on Indy!
127 Post contains images Lightsaber : So who bid $29?
128 PlanesNTrains : I understand I'm dense - it's the first step in a long road to recovery - but if Volume is UP while price is DOWN, how does that equate a drop in dem
129 UALPHLCS : As I sit back and remember how Airliners.net posters were so fanaticly enthusiastic about Independence Air when it first came out I have to smile. For
130 Skytony : UALPHLCS.....Amen to that!
131 Hiflyer : C. Edward Acker Chairman of the Board That is all the explanation you need for the shape FLYI is in and why the current management team is in place. B
132 Vatveng : Nah, that was an overbid. Should've bid $1
133 FutureFO : Lets just say "Ashes to Ashes and Dust to Dust". The auction for the assets is going to go quite swimmingly. There has been no investors for Flyi and
134 PlanesNTrains : That, and some felt that submitting to UA's financial demands would, over time, end with the same result. While their plan was flawed, I for one can
135 IRelayer : Improve your writing skills before critcizing other people's diction. -IR
136 WGW2707 : To clarify Mariner, you said that because DL and NW "fly everywhere, anytime", they are unprofitable. This is a false cause fallacy, plain and simple.
137 Danny : You mixed a few things. Demand is demand and price is price. Demand is measured in unites and price is measured in dollars. Demand is higher because
138 WGW2707 : I'm afraid you're the one who is mixed up here. You've basically confused demand with quantity, or more specifically, an increase in quantity demande
139 Post contains images Danny : If horizontal axis represents quantity then demand is measured in..... yes quantity Demand is the quantity of goods people want to buy and as you sai
140 Bicoastal : My neighbor ramper at United Dulles says the United management there is firmly convinced that Virgin America is going to buy the Independence Air Oper
141 Hiflyer : Probably a little bit of paranoia at the lower management level at United IAD. Branson just stated filing for a certificate in December, first aircra
142 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : Well I knew that was coming. I do understand what you are saying, and have no argument with it's application to this thread. I just think that, in a
143 COEWR : I wish I was home so I could scan the page from my econ book that discusses this. They have a really well laid out example on this exact topic. And,
144 Post contains images LN-MOW : .. and where does UA management think it's possible to hide 120 painted Airbii from nosy A.net photographers ..???
145 WGW2707 : I don't know where you picked this up, but you're way out in left field. Demand, like supply, is measured in quantity and price. In rare cases you ha
146 Post contains links Mariner : Pleased stop putting words into my mouth. At no point did I say that they are unprofitable BECAUSE they fly everywhere all the time. I said, from the
147 WGW2707 : I'm not putting words in your mouth: It would be rather stupid to try to put words in someone's mouth on an online forum. Look at the 10-Q statement.
148 Mariner : But you are. I said that Delta and Northwest are losing money "because they share the philosophy." What philospophy? In this case, the philosophy you
149 PlanesNTrains : Looking back in this thread, i can see where I went woefully wrong - I tried to give my thoughts on Demand to someone who has studied economics. I ki
150 WGW2707 : Mariner, your continued semantic flipfloping and use of logical fallacies is growing rather tiresome. You used a false cause fallacy, then tried to co
151 Mariner : The simple answer is for you to stop claiming that I said what I did not say. Being on the crew hasn't stopped you up till now, and I find it rather
152 Malaysia : I thought last they would use 9 mainline gates when fully utilized last I heard was B20 to B38 and B41-B47
153 Flightopsguy : Almost 50 cancelled flights (arrivals) at IAD yesterday (Wednesday). Anyone know how many belonged to DH? People not showing up to work? Weather at o
154 Malaysia : Yeah I heard that they actually have to close entire Gates due to no employees. such as close A5 and A6 and move those flights to A3 or A4 due to no
155 Lightsaber : Nine mainline gates? Really? Ok, I'll accept I could be *way* off. Does anyone have a definitive link on DH gates? Pardon me for wondering, but renti
156 ATWZW170 : It's not that I want to see anyone unemployed but offering $29 fares, going head to head with UA, and operating the RJ is just not smart. Midway tried
157 Malaysia : LONG LIVE INDEPENDENCE AIR.... does this help? maybe I can wake the DH People up?? come on WAKE UP!!! FIGHT FIGHT!! remember the A gates? oh well you
158 Flightopsguy : Another 50 arrival cancels at IAD today. About 35 from one single carrier. Wonder who it might be?
159 Jeb94 : It showed up in Reuters that FlyI will try to auction itself off. I've learned through insiders that they had planned on operating the RJ for free by
160 KcrwFlyer : Do you have any numbers or statistics that would prove these routes low volume, or is this a guess based on city size?
161 FlyCMH : I don't know who is feeding you these lies, but they are completely false. After looking through our system, I discovered the following: For Wednesda
162 Gsoflyer : I was looking at O&D numbers for these areas, along with the amount of competition in those cities driving down fares, along with population of areas
163 KcrwFlyer : I'm not sure about the other two, but Washington, D.C. is our largest market. I also think we are the smallest city they serve but as far as area pop
164 SaabFA71 : To all Independence Air employees.........pilots, flight attendants, mechanics, customer service/reservations agents, ramp agents, and administrative
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