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Rekkof Project Has Hope After KLM Announcement  
User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2490 posts, RR: 25
Posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 10678 times:

last week we all heard the Rekkof project was cancelled because of KLM. but now both Rekkof, KLM and journalist arnold burlage announced that the rekkof project is even more alive then ever, after rekkof is talking with 3 different engine manufactors to build a super efficient engine.

KLM also said today that the new Fokkers are likely to replace the 50 planes big KLC fleet by 2010, but that the order will be even bigger because also AF will get lots of Rekkofs because of a commen regional fleet , this is actually what the KLM head chief , peter hartman , today announced...

seems like there is a future afteralll

78 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4678 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 10642 times:

so who killed what now ey?


For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2490 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 10625 times:

jurgen don't blame me , im only posting what the press says  Wink last week rekkof sayd KLM was the one killing the project, but now its obviously KLM who's reanimating the F-70/100

User currently offlineJCS From Netherlands, joined Jun 2004, 210 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 10604 times:

MauriceB, you was a little faster. But here what I prepared to post this morning.

Johannes

Apparently Rekkof is still in good contact with KLM. After some rumors in different media, the newspaper Telegraaf makes clear what the point of Rekkof CEO Mr. Jaap Rosen Jacobsen is: "we DIDN'T give up".

De Telegraaf is the biggest newspaper from Netherlands and is regarded for financial & business news.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/2...erstart_Fokker_lijkt_dichtbij.html
SCHIPHOL - Chances for restarting the Fokker-airplanefactory seems to grow to serious during the development of the new very-fuel-reducing new version of the Fokker. KLM supports initiatives to make 'new' Fokker 70/100's airborne, because of fuel-price records. Behind-the-scenes, there are very significant efforts to make achievements.

In case of making the 'go' to build Fokkers, possible locations are Schiphol (AMS), Lelystad, Woensdrecht and Twente.

Aviation investor Jaap R. Rosen Jacobsen, already investing for many years in restarting airlinersproduction, has confirmed the status of these plans. "Aviation is much more dying for new fuel-low airliners instead of entire new aircraft types", he said.

The former military airbase Twenthe, being left by the Royal Airforce, seems at the moment the most potential because of its excellent financial possibilities. Some big local investors, like real estate investor Dick Wessels and Oad-owner [travel organization] ir. Joop ter Haar, are hopfull after negotiation with the CEO of the Fokker-plans.

Apparently the man who wants revitalization of the airliners production in our country has got serious attention from KLM for his new fuel-low Fokker-NG. "If this fuel-low Fokker-airliner is available, we will serious considering to take it in operations around 2010, when our regional-fleet needs to be renewed. That we can make good business with Fokkers speaks from the fact we have more then 50 Fokker-airliners in operation right now." According to a interview YESTERDAY with this newspaper.


User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4320 posts, RR: 36
Reply 4, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 10572 times:

I think it's a last PR attempt of Rekkof, I stopped believing in it. I think behind the scenes, the plug was pulled last summer, and quickly, Air France's affiliates Regional and Brit go for the Emb-170 family and KLM probably as well. It mainly sounds a PR spin. KLM will of course keep all options open and not say they won't ever buy it. Rekkof might want to keep up appearances and come up with vague positive news to keep away the creditors for a few more weeks or months.
De Telegraaf is the biggest newspaper in the Netherlands, but so is The Sun in England and the Bild Zeitung in Germany.



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently onlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5028 posts, RR: 44
Reply 5, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 10569 times:

Interesting. I still think chances of this happening are very small, but I hope I'm wrong...

Anyway, so much for the 'blame the French' movement that was starting on the other thread  Wink


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 6, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 10457 times:

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 4):
I think it's a last PR attempt of Rekkof,

This is pure PR....no chance...


User currently offlineTravellin'man From United States of America, joined May 2001, 530 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 10396 times:

In a world where the 717 never got off the ground more than it did, where Embraer is as dominant as it is becoming, I can't see how Rekkof will do much of anything.


It is not enough to be rude; one must also be incorrect.
User currently offlineKL808 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1584 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 10338 times:

Wow I just hope this is it. I just hope we get something difinitive out of all of this.

Quoting JCS (Reply 3):
The former military airbase Twenthe, being left by the Royal Airforce, seems at the moment the most potential because of its excellent financial possibilities.

This is great news for the cities of Hengelo, Oldenzaal and Enschede if it really is true.

Groetjes

Drew



AMS-LAX-MNL
User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4678 posts, RR: 50
Reply 9, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 10337 times:

Quoting Travellin'man (Reply 7):
In a world where the 717 never got off the ground more than it did, where Embraer is as dominant as it is becoming, I can't see how Rekkof will do much of anything.

In a world where the Boeing was quickly becoming the leading aircraft manufacturer with Lockheed virtually inexistant and the A300 not selling that well I couldn't see how Airbus would do much of anything.

(just to compare, not an A. vs B. war, we all know what became of the situation back then)

and maurice, you were also using your own feelings in the last thread (where did the press say KLM killed the rekkof project  Wink)



For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2490 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10190 times:

and maurice, you were also using your own feelings in the last thread (where did the press say KLM killed the rekkof project )



the spokesman of Rekkof said it in the radio interview



you lose  Wink


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10164 times:

I think Hartman picked up the phone said the Fokkers are doing fine at this moment. Hartman told Rekkof they would have a better chance if they put new more fuel efficient engines on the aircraft.

Burlage picked it up, saw news value and made loose comments into a possible announcement of a new aircrafty manufacturer.

KLM isn't in the business of financing / launching aerospace companies.


User currently offlineDakota From Netherlands, joined Feb 2000, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 10074 times:

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 10):
and maurice, you were also using your own feelings in the last thread (where did the press say KLM killed the rekkof project )



the spokesman of Rekkof said it in the radio interview

MauriceB, I am curious about which spokesman of Rekkof said this and where.


User currently offlineAviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 42
Reply 13, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 10052 times:

Guess Rekkof is reading this forum too Big grin
Anyway the story is quite simple, the initial plan was indeed rejected so plan B was pulled of the shelf which is not a new plan btw but developed at the same time as plan A just in case.
Plan B is plan A with new engines where all the rest stays at it was.
Meaning the new wings and updated avionics from plan A combined with new engines, which sounds more reasonable to start with anyway.

Something did change today though.
At the sidelines(something like in between) I was working on a certain project without any hurry though.
Suddenly today I had to drop all I was doing because "this project" needs to be finished in the next 7 weeks, nobody told me why the rush so all of a sudden..... not that I would have been able to tell you anyway.

So who knows what the future might hold in store  Wink

WTH



The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
User currently offlineMrocktor From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1668 posts, RR: 50
Reply 14, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 9991 times:

And here we go again... ;D

New engines mean new certification, which in turn means 2 year's worth of development testing at the barest minimum. Due to the F70 and F100's great structural efficiency, a new technology engine could make them competitive with the E-jets.

A "new" engine, i.e. an existing engine put on the Fokker could shorten that development period, on the other hand the resulting airframe/engine combination would not overwhelm existing established players in terms of performance.

I believe there is no marketplace solution that would put Fokker back in business. Government interference can change that, of course.

mrocktor


User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6146 posts, RR: 35
Reply 15, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 9842 times:

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 14):
A "new" engine, i.e. an existing engine put on the Fokker could shorten that development period...

True... but then why even bother with new builds???? With the number of airfarmes available it would be even cheaper (and faster) to just STC a more efficient existing engine.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 16, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 9778 times:

KLM would be crazy to buy a plane with no solid foundation in other customers.

Otherwise, Rekkof could easily fold right after or during delivery of KLM's order, with no support path available.

N


User currently offlineMrocktor From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1668 posts, RR: 50
Reply 17, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 9739 times:

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 15):
but then why even bother with new builds???? With the number of airfarmes available it would be even cheaper (and faster) to just STC a more efficient existing engine.

I'm not familiar with that kind of thing. How hard is it to STC an engine? Considering it affects performance so much it can't be simple.

mrocktor


User currently offlineAviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 42
Reply 18, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 9680 times:

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 14):
New engines mean new certification, which in turn means 2 year's worth of development testing at the barest minimum.

No I don't think so.
If I remember correctly the whole F100 certification was done in 14 months and that was a lot more then would be needed in this case.
Performance calculations are for the biggest part done by computer and simulations after which you only verify the gathered data by actually flying.

The most time consuming thing with certification is the airframe which didn't change for the F100 and won't change for the possible NG.

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 14):
Due to the F70 and F100's great structural efficiency, a new technology engine could make them competitive with the E-jets

Efficient it is, the airframe which basically still is an F28 airframe(although many parts switched from aluminum to composite) developed in the sixties is still lighter then Embraer or Bombardier ever managed not to mention Airbus and Boeing.


Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 14):
Government interference can change that

Rekkof does not want Government influence.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 15):
With the number of airframes available it would be even cheaper (and faster) to just STC a more efficient existing engine.

That would be my idea too, who knows.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 16):
Rekkof could easily fold right after or during delivery of KLM's order, with no support path available

Rekkof never had the intention to give any support, Fokker services committed itself to take that part.

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 17):
How hard is it to STC an engine? Considering it affects performance so much it can't be simple.

In essence it is not different from a new engine with one difference though, you don't have to wait for that new engine.
Also we still have the proto F100 so if needed work can begin tomorrow.


WTH



The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
User currently offlineLifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1920 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 9671 times:

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 15):
True... but then why even bother with new builds???? With the number of airfarmes available it would be even cheaper (and faster) to just STC a more efficient existing engine.

Yes, this can be the case. However, it's not only about new engines. It's the combination of new engines, new (or improved, dunno, maybe Aviopic knows) wings and new avionics that leads to the more efficient Fokker 70/100.

Cheers!  wave 



Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
User currently offlineAviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 42
Reply 20, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 9602 times:

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 19):
It's the combination of new engines, new (or improved, dunno, maybe Aviopic knows) wings and new avionics that leads to the more efficient Fokker 70/100.

Yes Aviopic knows but Aviopic can not tell all he knows Big grin
Wings: yes and no.......it's a bit difficult to say right now.
The Fokker wings are one of the most efficient around being super critical(a Fokker patent).
Still it was never intention to use them on the new Rekkof not because the molds were destroyed by Shorts(Bombardier) as many people believed but because they are F100 wings and the main focus of Rekkof is the F70.
Whether the new wings are going to be super critical as well I do not know at this point, at least they are going to be F70 wings...... don't want to be more specific.

Avionics new engines will need some kind of Fadec system so that will be new.
The better economics of new engines is largely coming from the new electronic control and not so much from the engine.
It's like going from a carburetor to an computerized fuel injected engine.

Further there is no need to change much other then the replacement of the EFIS and MFDS crt's for LCD's which means that the now integrated symbol generators will become a new and separate item.
No need to develop something new here, Rockwell Collins has them on the shelf.
Don't forget that F70/100 development never stopped and they are very much up to date.
For example they are certified for Cat 3c autoland a thingy still not found in the 170/190 not to mention the B737NG.
Dedicated maintenance computer, dark cockpit philosophy, centralized fault annuciation are all items still not present on the 73NG.
A new AFCAS(Automatic Flight and Augmentation System) which in essence was a B76 autopilot but heavily modified(and I know cos i did it myself) was already developed before Fokker went down the drain and is just lying around and ready to put in place.

Guess the biggest F70/100 advantage is still weight and with new engines it can only get better.



The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
User currently offlineAviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 42
Reply 21, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 9480 times:

More news from Iran !

http://www.mehrnews.ir/en/NewsDetail.aspx?NewsID=249925



The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
User currently offlineLifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1920 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 9134 times:

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 21):
More news from Iran !

http://www.mehrnews.ir/en/NewsDetail...49925

Now there's a good example in how not to write a clear article...

But in short, HESA is going to built 30% of the new parts needed for the Fokker 70 and 100...

Cheers!  wave 



Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
User currently offlineLijnden From Philippines, joined Apr 2003, 564 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 8962 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Happy to see that Iran is willing to buy Rekkofs. Soon other ME airliners will follow. How about Lufthansa, they showed some interest in the products of Rekkof? How about the other Sky-team partners like NWA and Delta/Song and Continental? What about Sweden? That was a large F-28 market. Maybe SAS will downscale some of the internal scandic flight to R-100's? And ofcourse the biggest potential country: Russia. Maybe Puttin was here last week to discuss a plane purchase to replace some of the old SU aircraft with R-100's?


Be kind to animals!
User currently offlineFokker70NG From Netherlands, joined Nov 2005, 234 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 8924 times:

The current developments around Rekkof almost forced me to become a A.net member, because it really made me wanting to participate in this discussions.  Smile

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 22):
Now there's a good example in how not to write a clear article...

But in short, HESA is going to built 30% of the new parts needed for the Fokker 70 and 100...

Is this only for Fokkers for the Iranian domestic market to get round the export bans? Or will they produce parts for all Fokkers which Rekkof will assemble (in case the project will succeed, of course)? Do you know which parts HESA will build?



Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -Albert Einstein
25 Aviopic : Russia is showing interest for some time but not for new airframes(they have a perfect 70-100 seat themselves). A potential customer wanted to operat
26 Amy : I really want to see this happen! Could the BR710 be a possible new engine? It has around the same (slightly higher) thrust and is well tested by the
27 Incitatus : Where did that one come from? F70 empty operating weight is 49984 lb. E-170's is 46606 lbs. Notice that the payload for the F70 is only 15800 lb whil
28 Sllevin : I can't believe that KL/AF would buy from Rekkof when they have not begun to tap the 60 (!) sub-15 year old F100's available right now, for bargain-ba
29 AMSSFO : I would love to see Rekkof succeed! Available right now? Where? You can't buy a plane that's used by someone else. Almost all of those ~60 F100s have
30 Planemaker : Actually, Putin is putting pressure on Russian carriers to sign on to the RRJ. If they, do the government will issue them import permits for Boeing a
31 Fokker70NG : You shouldn't forget that the F70 seats 79 in standard config, against 70 in the E-170. I guess that counts too.
32 Scorpio : You don't expect a US airline to buy a plane that has 30% IRANIAN parts, do you?
33 Jasond : This sounds like it but I would like to believe it. F28's and F100's have done and still do wonderful service where I live. There's nothing wrong wit
34 Mrocktor : What are the pitch, seat width, aisle width of the F70's standard config? mrocktor
35 Hardiwv : Good summary! Rgs,
36 Post contains images Fokker70NG : I think this image clearly shows the OEW per seat is comparable with the modern RJ's. The OEW per seat of the F100 is even much lower than any modern
37 Incitatus : Come on, this chart is totally biased! On a superficial inspection, I can see the seat count for the E-175 is wrong. Also the scale doesn't help. The
38 Post contains images Joost : It is from the Rekkof marketing department, that's why
39 Post contains images Fokker70NG : Of course it is, but I don't feel like calculating it all by myself. Although I must admit it is somewhat biased, you must admit that even if you adj
40 Post contains images MIAMIx707 : I'm not from Brazil or the Netherllands ..and I'd love it if the Rekkof F-100s started selling more than all those ugly small jets such as the Embraer
41 Post contains images LifelinerOne : Now that won't help, because plan B from Rekkof is a sort of new wing, new avionics and new engines. So, fitting new engines can help, but it won't b
42 Incitatus : You don't feel like calculating it yourself but you are perfectly fine with posting garbage information? No I am not. I have not posted deceiving adv
43 AMSSFO : When did that happen?
44 Allessandro : Does anybody know which engines Rekkof is looking into?? I have checked the sites of RR, PWC and GE and found these three options in the range upto 20
45 Post contains images Fokker70NG : Well, apparently the journalist got it wrong then. I don't think it's garbage. The OEW's seem to be rather correct, but of course it's somewhat biase
46 Post contains images Aviopic : Would be a very good choice, to be honest it was already selected for an update when Fokker was still alive. So who knows how much of the engineering
47 Sllevin : Without the same wings, you have defined an entirely new aircraft. Changing engines is one thing, but wings are something else entirely. Going from a
48 AMSSFO : 3 will go to Carpatair (of which one will be placed with Moldavian); they are now serviced at DNR and the first one will be delivered soon 5 will go
49 Post contains images LifelinerOne : Hmm.. Willem, I somehow got the feeling you know more than you're willing to tell here... It's also said that KLM is going to pick up the Air France
50 Fokker70NG : All AF's F100's and F70's? How many do they have?
51 SWISSER : Exellent news! With the new engines this will be an exellent product! who do you think will eventually order them? KLM AF VLM (to start with!) Also Lu
52 Fokker70NG : I think if AF/KL will order new Fokkers remains to be seen.. I wonder if there is a restart scenario without KLM involved?
53 Petertenthije : I suppose VLM and one or more Iranian airlines are certain customers, assuming of course the restart does not drag out too long.
54 Post contains images LifelinerOne : Yeah, there is. Lufthansa's name has been tied earlier to the Rekkof project and word was that there even was a Letter of Intent. Don't know what's h
55 Post contains images Petertenthije : Even more????
56 Post contains images Aviopic : Very true but as I said..... I don't know what they are gonna do. The Jetsgo birds are all sold. KLM wants to have more F70's only when they could no
57 Post contains images Petertenthije : Then why would Rek... euh, that unnamed company not come out themselves? Would prove that at least something is happening. This would probably also b
58 Post contains images Fokker70NG : Wasn't Lufthansa's name big enough? Or wasn't Lufthansa really interested in the end? I like guessing, please go on Could it be that this un-named co
59 Post contains links Aviopic : Who said that I meant Rekkof ? Maybe it is a shared operation of 2 or even 3 companies ? See reply 46 second paragraph in this thread. Maybe they don
60 Sllevin : But they WERE available just a couple of months ago, and KL didn't persue them. Heck, AA's entire fleet sat for months and months before the first bi
61 Dons : KLM (KLC) didn't acquire extra F100's with 620 engines. They still operate the fleet of former AIR UK/KLM UK of 15 aircraft. The first extra F100 was
62 Fokker70NG : They are mainly interested in the F70, which is also the main focus of Rekkof. I've read on a forum somewhere (so I'm not sure if it's true) that the
63 Post contains links Lightsaber : Nice info comparison. The Rekkof weight, if we assume 220lbm (100kg) per pax, allows for up to 72 pax. The E170 allows for 90. Yikes, With the seats
64 Post contains links AMSSFO : Where did you get your F70 numbers? The numbers I can find are slightly different: F70 weights from http://www.rekkof.nl/product/graphs/payload_70.ht
65 Aviopic : Yes... Jetsgo went bankrupt and you can't buy anything from a bankrupt organization until the man(don't know how that is called in English) in charge
66 Sllevin : Ah, so Jetsgo buying some planes that had been sitting parked precluded KL from looking at the other *29* airframes that were unsold until recently?
67 DONS : You did in reply 56: Currently stored at Woensdrecht I believe. Ok, you're right, bad maintenance, resulting in bad performance. There are some diffe
68 MIAMIx707 : I'm probably the only one in the whole a.net who would like to see more F-100s around that I care to see A350s or maybe even 787s.. What year can we e
69 Post contains images Aviopic : Did you read the thread Steve ? KLM never showed any interest in more F100's so why should they have been interested in the Jetsgo machines which are
70 Post contains images Fokker70NG : You're not the only one, I'd like to see some Rekkof F70's/F100's too Keep posting, there are enough people who like it. The people who don't like it
71 Sllevin : KL wants to make money. They would make far more money buying the F100's than buying F70's from Rekkof. What they are picking up now are dribs and dr
72 Aviopic : There is because there is a little problem starting from 2009/2010 as I explained but you don't seem to read before posting which is why this will be
73 Bennett123 : Like many on this forum, I do not see Rekkof ever flying for two reasons; 1. If it was viable, it would have happened by now. Perhaps those who suppor
74 Beaucaire : Still six months ago I would have belived a possible new Fokker 70 from Rekkof -for me they are history now . Too many hot air,a website that does not
75 Post contains images Fokker70NG : You must have very good sources. I feel betrayed, because all my sources say they are interested. And you even live more than 6000 miles away! Could
76 Allessandro : The design of the F70/100 (nor the F50/60) has never been frozen after Fokker Aircraft went bankrupt. Fokker Services (FS), the current Type Certific
77 Sllevin : Are these the same definitive sources that don't allow you to know if Rekkof is going to use a new wing or not? Buying 25 Rekkof machines would cost
78 Fokker70NG : Don't forget the Rekkofs will be equipped with new engines, and many other updates which make them comparable with today's RJ's. And also don't forge
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