MauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2487 posts, RR: 27 Posted (8 years 1 month 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 10310 times:
last week we all heard the Rekkof project was cancelled because of KLM. but now both Rekkof, KLM and journalist arnold burlage announced that the rekkof project is even more alive then ever, after rekkof is talking with 3 different engine manufactors to build a super efficient engine.
KLM also said today that the new Fokkers are likely to replace the 50 planes big KLC fleet by 2010, but that the order will be even bigger because also AF will get lots of Rekkofs because of a commen regional fleet , this is actually what the KLM head chief , peter hartman , today announced...
JCS From Netherlands, joined Jun 2004, 208 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 10236 times:
MauriceB, you was a little faster. But here what I prepared to post this morning.
Apparently Rekkof is still in good contact with KLM. After some rumors in different media, the newspaper Telegraaf makes clear what the point of Rekkof CEO Mr. Jaap Rosen Jacobsen is: "we DIDN'T give up".
De Telegraaf is the biggest newspaper from Netherlands and is regarded for financial & business news.
SCHIPHOL - Chances for restarting the Fokker-airplanefactory seems to grow to serious during the development of the new very-fuel-reducing new version of the Fokker. KLM supports initiatives to make 'new' Fokker 70/100's airborne, because of fuel-price records. Behind-the-scenes, there are very significant efforts to make achievements.
In case of making the 'go' to build Fokkers, possible locations are Schiphol (AMS), Lelystad, Woensdrecht and Twente.
Aviation investor Jaap R. Rosen Jacobsen, already investing for many years in restarting airlinersproduction, has confirmed the status of these plans. "Aviation is much more dying for new fuel-low airliners instead of entire new aircraft types", he said.
The former military airbase Twenthe, being left by the Royal Airforce, seems at the moment the most potential because of its excellent financial possibilities. Some big local investors, like real estate investor Dick Wessels and Oad-owner [travel organization] ir. Joop ter Haar, are hopfull after negotiation with the CEO of the Fokker-plans.
Apparently the man who wants revitalization of the airliners production in our country has got serious attention from KLM for his new fuel-low Fokker-NG. "If this fuel-low Fokker-airliner is available, we will serious considering to take it in operations around 2010, when our regional-fleet needs to be renewed. That we can make good business with Fokkers speaks from the fact we have more then 50 Fokker-airliners in operation right now." According to a interview YESTERDAY with this newspaper.
MEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4210 posts, RR: 36 Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 10204 times:
I think it's a last PR attempt of Rekkof, I stopped believing in it. I think behind the scenes, the plug was pulled last summer, and quickly, Air France's affiliates Regional and Brit go for the Emb-170 family and KLM probably as well. It mainly sounds a PR spin. KLM will of course keep all options open and not say they won't ever buy it. Rekkof might want to keep up appearances and come up with vague positive news to keep away the creditors for a few more weeks or months.
De Telegraaf is the biggest newspaper in the Netherlands, but so is The Sun in England and the Bild Zeitung in Germany.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
JRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4616 posts, RR: 51 Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 month 5 days ago) and read 9969 times:
Quoting Travellin'man (Reply 7): In a world where the 717 never got off the ground more than it did, where Embraer is as dominant as it is becoming, I can't see how Rekkof will do much of anything.
In a world where the Boeing was quickly becoming the leading aircraft manufacturer with Lockheed virtually inexistant and the A300 not selling that well I couldn't see how Airbus would do much of anything.
(just to compare, not an A. vs B. war, we all know what became of the situation back then)
and maurice, you were also using your own feelings in the last thread (where did the press say KLM killed the rekkof project )
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
Aviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 44 Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 month 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 9684 times:
Guess Rekkof is reading this forum too
Anyway the story is quite simple, the initial plan was indeed rejected so plan B was pulled of the shelf which is not a new plan btw but developed at the same time as plan A just in case.
Plan B is plan A with new engines where all the rest stays at it was.
Meaning the new wings and updated avionics from plan A combined with new engines, which sounds more reasonable to start with anyway.
Something did change today though.
At the sidelines(something like in between) I was working on a certain project without any hurry though.
Suddenly today I had to drop all I was doing because "this project" needs to be finished in the next 7 weeks, nobody told me why the rush so all of a sudden..... not that I would have been able to tell you anyway.
So who knows what the future might hold in store
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
Mrocktor From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1661 posts, RR: 50 Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 month 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 9623 times:
And here we go again... ;D
New engines mean new certification, which in turn means 2 year's worth of development testing at the barest minimum. Due to the F70 and F100's great structural efficiency, a new technology engine could make them competitive with the E-jets.
A "new" engine, i.e. an existing engine put on the Fokker could shorten that development period, on the other hand the resulting airframe/engine combination would not overwhelm existing established players in terms of performance.
I believe there is no marketplace solution that would put Fokker back in business. Government interference can change that, of course.
Aviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 44 Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 month 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9312 times:
Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 14): New engines mean new certification, which in turn means 2 year's worth of development testing at the barest minimum.
No I don't think so.
If I remember correctly the whole F100 certification was done in 14 months and that was a lot more then would be needed in this case.
Performance calculations are for the biggest part done by computer and simulations after which you only verify the gathered data by actually flying.
The most time consuming thing with certification is the airframe which didn't change for the F100 and won't change for the possible NG.
Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 14): Due to the F70 and F100's great structural efficiency, a new technology engine could make them competitive with the E-jets
Efficient it is, the airframe which basically still is an F28 airframe(although many parts switched from aluminum to composite) developed in the sixties is still lighter then Embraer or Bombardier ever managed not to mention Airbus and Boeing.
LifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1897 posts, RR: 8 Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 month 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9303 times:
Quoting Planemaker (Reply 15): True... but then why even bother with new builds???? With the number of airfarmes available it would be even cheaper (and faster) to just STC a more efficient existing engine.
Yes, this can be the case. However, it's not only about new engines. It's the combination of new engines, new (or improved, dunno, maybe Aviopic knows) wings and new avionics that leads to the more efficient Fokker 70/100.
Aviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 44 Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 month 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9234 times:
Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 19): It's the combination of new engines, new (or improved, dunno, maybe Aviopic knows) wings and new avionics that leads to the more efficient Fokker 70/100.
Yes Aviopic knows but Aviopic can not tell all he knows Wings: yes and no.......it's a bit difficult to say right now.
The Fokker wings are one of the most efficient around being super critical(a Fokker patent).
Still it was never intention to use them on the new Rekkof not because the molds were destroyed by Shorts(Bombardier) as many people believed but because they are F100 wings and the main focus of Rekkof is the F70.
Whether the new wings are going to be super critical as well I do not know at this point, at least they are going to be F70 wings...... don't want to be more specific.
Avionics new engines will need some kind of Fadec system so that will be new.
The better economics of new engines is largely coming from the new electronic control and not so much from the engine.
It's like going from a carburetor to an computerized fuel injected engine.
Further there is no need to change much other then the replacement of the EFIS and MFDS crt's for LCD's which means that the now integrated symbol generators will become a new and separate item.
No need to develop something new here, Rockwell Collins has them on the shelf.
Don't forget that F70/100 development never stopped and they are very much up to date.
For example they are certified for Cat 3c autoland a thingy still not found in the 170/190 not to mention the B737NG.
Dedicated maintenance computer, dark cockpit philosophy, centralized fault annuciation are all items still not present on the 73NG.
A new AFCAS(Automatic Flight and Augmentation System) which in essence was a B76 autopilot but heavily modified(and I know cos i did it myself) was already developed before Fokker went down the drain and is just lying around and ready to put in place.
Guess the biggest F70/100 advantage is still weight and with new engines it can only get better.
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
Lijnden From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 557 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 month 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 8594 times:
Happy to see that Iran is willing to buy Rekkofs. Soon other ME airliners will follow. How about Lufthansa, they showed some interest in the products of Rekkof? How about the other Sky-team partners like NWA and Delta/Song and Continental? What about Sweden? That was a large F-28 market. Maybe SAS will downscale some of the internal scandic flight to R-100's? And ofcourse the biggest potential country: Russia. Maybe Puttin was here last week to discuss a plane purchase to replace some of the old SU aircraft with R-100's?
But in short, HESA is going to built 30% of the new parts needed for the Fokker 70 and 100...
Is this only for Fokkers for the Iranian domestic market to get round the export bans? Or will they produce parts for all Fokkers which Rekkof will assemble (in case the project will succeed, of course)? Do you know which parts HESA will build?
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -Albert Einstein
25 Aviopic: Russia is showing interest for some time but not for new airframes(they have a perfect 70-100 seat themselves). A potential customer wanted to operat
26 Amy: I really want to see this happen! Could the BR710 be a possible new engine? It has around the same (slightly higher) thrust and is well tested by the
27 Incitatus: Where did that one come from? F70 empty operating weight is 49984 lb. E-170's is 46606 lbs. Notice that the payload for the F70 is only 15800 lb whil
28 Sllevin: I can't believe that KL/AF would buy from Rekkof when they have not begun to tap the 60 (!) sub-15 year old F100's available right now, for bargain-ba
29 AMSSFO: I would love to see Rekkof succeed! Available right now? Where? You can't buy a plane that's used by someone else. Almost all of those ~60 F100s have
30 Planemaker: Actually, Putin is putting pressure on Russian carriers to sign on to the RRJ. If they, do the government will issue them import permits for Boeing a
31 Fokker70NG: You shouldn't forget that the F70 seats 79 in standard config, against 70 in the E-170. I guess that counts too.
32 Scorpio: You don't expect a US airline to buy a plane that has 30% IRANIAN parts, do you?
33 Jasond: This sounds like it but I would like to believe it. F28's and F100's have done and still do wonderful service where I live. There's nothing wrong wit
34 Mrocktor: What are the pitch, seat width, aisle width of the F70's standard config? mrocktor