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AC Plans "polished Aluminum" 767 To Save $  
User currently offlineCYLW From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 435 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13833 times:

From AC's Daily:

Looking to lose weight and save money polished look tested on B767.

Air Canada is considering taking a new polished look to its B767s to further reduce weight from its fleet and offset record fuel prices. The Toronto Paint Shop is currently conducting tests by stripping primer and paint from FIN 613s fuselage, which will then be polished and buffed to give it's aluminum coating a shiny finish the aircraft will keep its Air Canada logo and the new tail design. The removal of primer and paint reduces the aircraft's weight by approximately 360 pounds, which translates into fuel savings of more than $24,000 per year for each aircraft. "Based on our evaluation of FIN 613 over the next few weeks, we'll determine if we'll proceed with other B767s," said Jon Turner, Vice-President, Air Canada Maintenance. Watch for more details in the December issue of Horizons.

59 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMSYYZ From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 851 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13795 times:

Will it look like AA Aircraft ???
That would be ugly .



A346,A343,A342,A332,A333,A310,A300,AB6,A319,A320,A321,B741,B744,B777,B767,B732,B735,B727,B707,B757,MD80,F-70,E-170,B738
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11630 posts, RR: 61
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13765 times:

Looks like AA was ahead of the curve on this one!  Smile

User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9638 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13723 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 2):
Looks like AA was ahead of the curve on this one!

Yes and no. A number of airlines have debated whether or not a polished aluminum surface is better or worse than a painted surface. AA made a decision a long time ago and stuck with it.

To go back to the original post, this might work out. It used to be a hot topic whether or not paint was good. Paint reduces corrosion and helps protect the surface. This saves money. However it weighs more which costs more money. Some airlines go with paint and some go polished aluminum. USair made a big switch when it went from polished aluminum to paint when it rebranded into US Airways. However with the higher fuel prices, the scale might be tipped towards polished aluminum as being cheaper. We will see. However it would be hideous if AC only had polished aluminum on the 767s and maintained toothpaste blue on the rest of the fleet.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12566 posts, RR: 46
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13692 times:
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Hmm, so how will they polish their 787s?  scratchchin 


Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 977 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13631 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):
However it would be hideous if AC only had polished aluminum on the 767s and maintained toothpaste blue on the rest of the fleet.

I agree, it seems like AC might be heading toward a Delta-like plethora of color schemes flying...

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 4):
Hmm, so how will they polish their 787s?

They'll have to use some sort of paint unless they want polished charcole  Wink


User currently offlineMD80fanatic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2660 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13513 times:

So it takes $66.6 dollars of fuel to cart around one pound (about 16 fl oz.) of paint and primer in a year? That sounds a little absurd actually.

User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1961 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 13459 times:

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 6):

The numbers may or may not be correct, but would it sound less absurd if you scaled it up to: $10,656 to carry a 160lb person around all year? That sounds less absurd to me.


User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 13441 times:

Am I right in thinking that al can be anodised to give it a surface colour? Would this be practical (OK not for existing 767's but for new aircraft) instead of painting?

User currently offlineMD80fanatic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2660 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 13374 times:

Good point StuckInCA.

And that's a great idea Art....would look nice as well.  Smile


User currently offlineMSYYZ From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 851 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 13345 times:

If Airlines continue to try to save money by removing paint scheme , we may end up flying on an Aircraft with this colour scheme :

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © French Frogs AirSlides




A346,A343,A342,A332,A333,A310,A300,AB6,A319,A320,A321,B741,B744,B777,B767,B732,B735,B727,B707,B757,MD80,F-70,E-170,B738
User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1961 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 13317 times:

Quoting Art (Reply 8):
can be anodised to give it a surface colour?

Yes it can. It's tough to get consistent color however. Also, I only know of this being done by submerging parts in a tank. Unless there's a process I'm unaware of, you couldn't just anodize the outside. Anodizing can also be clear(ish) or gray or black hard (but that would add weight). I'm sure someone here knows more than I do, but I do specify some anodizing on parts I design.


User currently offlineAirfoilsguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 13307 times:

Anodising would cost a fortune. My question is, don't you have to coat the polished aluminum with something. My experience with aluminum is the it turns black if not coated.

User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 13252 times:

They plan on saving $ 24,000 per aircraft per year.

If they have about 40-50 767s, that would be a maximum savings of about $ 1.2 million. Which is basically peanuts.

Coming to think of it, they're charging for peanuts too. And pillows and blankets now.

How desperate will they get?


User currently offlineMD80fanatic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2660 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 13226 times:

All aluminum that is exposed to air is immediately coated with aluminum oxide....it is automatic process of oxidation....this is what gives aluminum is metallic shine.

I thought that aluminum, in it unoxidized state, is blackish in color. I could be having a senior moment though.  Wink


User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 13203 times:

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 13):
They plan on saving $ 24,000 per aircraft per year.

If they have about 40-50 767s, that would be a maximum savings of about $ 1.2 million. Which is basically peanuts.

Coming to think of it, they're charging for peanuts too. And pillows and blankets now.

How desperate will they get?

A million here, a million there, and you soon have saved $20 million, or $30 million, and that's how a profitable airline thinks these days. There are a thousand ways to economize in a large organization, and many of them are often rejected as "peanuts", too small to bother with. And that's how inefficiencies and high costs become institutionalized.

Desperate? I'd say smart.


User currently offlineMarshalN From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2005, 1521 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 13117 times:

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 13):
If they have about 40-50 767s, that would be a maximum savings of about $ 1.2 million. Which is basically peanuts.



Quoting Sebring (Reply 15):
A million here, a million there, and you soon have saved $20 million, or $30 million, and that's how a profitable airline thinks these days. There are a thousand ways to economize in a large organization, and many of them are often rejected as "peanuts", too small to bother with. And that's how inefficiencies and high costs become institutionalized.

Desperate? I'd say smart.

But how much will it cost to strip the paint off and the re-polish them? I hardly doubt it'll cost anything less than $24,000 a pop for the new paint (or non paint) job done.


User currently offlineYegbey01 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1726 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 13109 times:

HOw much does it cost Air Canada to research the information and do all the testing. If I have to guess.....about a million dollars in salaries and other resources.....

User currently offlineGalapagapop From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 910 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12942 times:

Only 360 pounds??? Not sure creating a subfleet of A/C with a different image for your company is worth $24,000 a year per A/C? Not at all sure a AC 767 would look good either.

User currently offlineStuckinMAF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 12892 times:

Paint is not the problem.

Southwest still paints it's planes. And they make money.

American does not paint (most) of it's planes.

Enough said.


User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12110 posts, RR: 48
Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 12850 times:
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Maybe they will go back to a weight maximum for the FA's! Think about some of those senior guys and gals flying the skies and the weight they have packed on over the years.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineA332 From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 1644 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 12813 times:

Sounds awful to me... and you'd think AC would want to continue on with that "wonderful" new image they've unveiled... kind of silly of AC to want to pursue some hideous aircraft livery to save a couple bucks here and there.


Bad spellers of the world... UNTIE!
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 12812 times:

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 14):
All aluminum that is exposed to air is immediately coated with aluminum oxide....it is automatic process of oxidation....this is what gives aluminum is metallic shine.

I thought that aluminum, in it unoxidized state, is blackish in color. I could be having a senior moment though.

Most aircraft use Alclad aluminum for there skins. Alcad is a thin coat of pure aluminum applied to the aluminum sheets at the mill. The Alclad totals about 10% of the total thickness of the aluminum. Pure aluminum has no strength (like aluminum foil) but will not corrode. When the paint is stripped the surface is buffed with and very fine polish compound and treated with clear alodine to add extra protection. There is no additional coating added as that would defeat the purpose of stripping. Alclad is a trandmark of Alcoa.


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 12544 times:

Quoting Sebring (Reply 15):
There are a thousand ways to economize in a large organization, and many of them are often rejected as "peanuts", too small to bother with. And that's how inefficiencies and high costs become institutionalized.

Sure.
But when it comes at the cost of diluting your brand and image, then its hardly worth it.


User currently offlineA380 From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 658 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 12467 times:

This will make Westjet look beautiful and less 'low-cost', just my opinion...

25 Post contains images RicardoFG : Would AC make up there mind already??? Im finally starting to get used to the tube of toothpaste in the sky, and it looks great on the Embraers!!! I t
26 AirOrange : Agree with StuckinMAF and aircraft with a lot of composite materials will look awfull without paint.
27 EnviroTO : Change the whole look of the plane for 360 pounds of weight reduction on an aircraft which can take-off weighing 350,000 pounds? You can save the same
28 AirbusA6 : I wonder about this. If kings of cost cutting Ryanair, who would happily do anything to save money, still paint their aircraft, are the real savings t
29 Post contains links and images Bmacleod : Won't be the first time they did this..... View Large View MediumPhoto © Frank Schaefer
30 AirxLiban : But think of the millions of dollars of revenue possible from carting around a whopping 360 additional pounds of cargo revenue!
31 ACdreamliner : desperate is not a word i'd choose. they are a low cost carrier in north america now. offering comparable or better fares than even WestJet! Air Cana
32 MD80fanatic : Since we are on a micro-savings scale here....there may be something else to consider...the added drag when not using paint. No matter how polished (o
33 Trayfam : I don't know that it makes much sense. As someone said before, after you pull the 67s out of service, pay for them to be stripped, buffed, and reseale
34 Sebring : Two things are not being considered here. 1) Why a 767-200 for this trial? Because the plane is nearing the end of its service life, and if the experi
35 IRelayer : Whenever something like "we want to save fuel by not painting our aircraft" or "no more free pillows" or "no more free peanuts" comes around, I always
36 AirPacific747 : Can anyone provide a modified airline picture of the paint scheme?
37 ORD : Air Canada's 787s will have to be painted, there is no way around it. Even if an airline like AA orders the 787, their planes will need to be painted
38 Post contains links ORD : Boeing actually found no difference in cost between paint and polish: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aer...zine/aero_05/textonly/fo01txt.html
39 AC7E7 : Hold on a tick... does this mean that if it is believed to be feasible, we will see the end of the tooth paste livery?
40 Post contains images Abrelosojos : = -A.
41 Abrelosojos : = Is it me ... or does the plane look a little sick? -A.
42 Post contains images Motif1 : They actually did: Summary Though the weight of paint adds to fuel consumption, the fuel-cost savings offered by polished surfaces is outweighed by t
43 Visityyj : That plane was a 1-year lease from Eastern. AC just overpainted the cheatline and tail leaving the EA metal elsewhere.
44 ACdreamliner : god i hope not!?!?!? its the 2nd best livery in the skies at the moment, only surpassed by the boeing 'dreamliner' livery...
45 DIA : Why only 767s? Why not try it on several a/c? If this trial livery is successful on the 767, will they trial it on several other a/c types, or will AC
46 Hmmmm... : I love this idea. The AC scheme is sickening. Anything that gets rid of it, even on some of their planes, is an improvement. Unfortunately, the trend
47 N754PR : CX are doing the same with the freighters.
48 FriendlySkies : Airbuses are made of aluminum alloys, just like Boeings. They just put that green coating on it. It might be a different type, but it's still Al.
49 Ha763 : The 767 is the only aircraft in AC's fleet that can go bare aluminum because of Alclad. The A320, 330, and 340 do not use Alclad skins and need to be
50 RJ111 : How does the A340/A330 skin differ from the A300's?
51 MIAMIx707 : AC aircraft are fugly, the new toothpaste livery is a bit better but not great, so an all-metallic 767 should look at least more interesting. If they
52 Reins485 : I think I read some where that for planes going to AA, they would select the Al that would polish the best to the point of rejecting some sheets if th
53 Cessnapimp : No MIAMIx707, As stated many-a-times in this forum, the hybrid livery is just an interim measure until aircraft come in for heavy checks... then the f
54 DarthRandall : They got the idea while watching Back to the Future.
55 ElGreco : There is some automatic polishing machine control by computer (I saw one in Fokker factory in Amsterdam which was made for a big order made by AA for
56 Ha763 : The A300s also are built with skin panels that are coated with the same corrosion protection that is found on all Airbus aircraft, meaning they have
57 Post contains images AIRCANL1011 : I saw the B767 sitting outside the paint shop this afternoon at YYZ. She looked like a silver bullet with a blue tail. It was difficult to get a good
58 AC7E7 : If it ends up saving the company money, I'm sure they will add some kind of cheat line or something to the aircraft. The point is not to have the airc
59 AIRCANL1011 : Is that why they paint the others blue, not to look good but to waste $$$ Gee go figure BTW it does say AIR CANADA on the side in the big red letters
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