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QF Response To OzJet Busines Class?  
User currently offlineSimpilicity From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3564 times:

How will QF respond to OzJet business class at full economy fares?

QF won't have a lot of room to move. They make a lot of money out of business types who pay full Y & they can't drop these fares.

Will they thrown f.f. points around or give away f.f. seats (at times when they f.f. seats are always available) or give away limited QF club entry?

OzJet who should be launching this month in Australia between SYD/MEL will allow 15 minute check in with up to 3 pieces of carry on baggage.

How can they do this? Easy, they're aiming at business market or those current paying fully flexible economy fares (business types/public servants) on the "big red rat" (QF) & will only have 60 C seats 2-2 x 15 rows on each 737.

OzJet's overheads will be incredibly low, so QF would be nuts to try & take them on price wise. QF could try & make a big deal about how old OzJets 732's are, but they have to be careful as some of their 743's are early 80's models.

Or might QF do a Southwest & give away a bottle of booze or something else with a reasonable perceived value?

Can anyone suggest how QF might respond?

One things for sure it's going to be interesting, especially as OzJet have said they should have 12 x 732's flying by mid-2006 & will be flying to all Australian capitals inc. PER (only nonstop from ADL initially) it certainly wouldn't be hard to find more if required. Apparently if non peak hour flights aren't busy they'll just park them for a few hours, as they are not paying any leasing fees (except maybe on paper) on the European (EAAC) aircraft.

84 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineYUAMB From Australia, joined Nov 2005, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3525 times:

I dont think QF has a problem until OzJet gets the planes to fly enough frequencies to compete with them. What frequencies will they be flying SYD-MEL at? I highly doubt they would be able to match the cityflyer service of flights every 30 minutes. I would say this would appeal to the business traveller.

On top of that, what about reliability? If an OzJet plane needs to go to maintenance, they dont exactly have much to step in. Qf would have no problem however.

In the end, i think people are going to look at the two and when they see a fancy business class seat on a unknown new airline flying every few hours compared to
a normal economy (which isnt that bad anyway) seat on a proven reliable safe airline, then QF (or even VirginBlue) will be chosen, but thats just me.

Id still give OzJet a shot just to fly on the 732. Apart from that, unless they happen to have a flight at the time i want at a price much lower than Qantas or VirginBlue, then i dont think ill bother.


User currently offlineHKGKaiTak From Australia, joined Jun 2005, 1050 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3518 times:

My guess is they won't really respond, they don't really need to ... but, I suspect if they have to they could:

- Promote their more frequent schedules - Ozjet might have business class seats and late check-in etc, but they don't have nearly as frequent schedules as does QF.

- Promote their newer aircraft - I think both QF and DJ will find it irresistible to get mileage out of the fact that it runs 737NGs as opposed to Ozjet's much older 732s.

- More FF points - perhaps full economy on Cityflyer routes will get more FF points or some sort of extra sweetener here, although whether any of the FFs can redeem these extra points is another matter.

- Higher Commissions - Ozjet made a song and dance about how they were going to pay travel agents whereas QF pays nothing meaningful - I can see both QF and DJ waiting and seeing how much business corporate agents are giving Ozjet and then respond with added commission, perhaps again only on full econ?

- Sweeter corporate deals - perhaps QF can offer sweeter overrides on corporate bookings that they get cheaper fares the more they book QF, this can make corporates / agents think twice before booking Ozjet. Although with the way QF has been treating agents, I think this is unlikely unless Ozjet really is a success.



4 Engines 4 LongHaul
User currently offlineMNeo From Bulgaria, joined Mar 2004, 776 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3516 times:

I think that that could work but if the flight was a little longer. SYD-MEL is not long enough to justfiy a customer to swtich his airline just to fly buisness.


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User currently offlineSimpilicity From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3499 times:

Quoting YUAMB (Reply 1):
On top of that, what about reliability? If an OzJet plane needs to go to maintenance, they dont exactly have much to step in. Qf would have no problem however.

In the end, i think people are going to look at the two and when they see a fancy business class seat on a unknown new airline flying every few hours compared to
a normal economy (which isnt that bad anyway) seat on a proven reliable safe airline, then QF (or even VirginBlue) will be chosen, but thats just me.

OzJet will have plenty of back up aircraft, including Bae146-300's.

Hardly unknown, Stoddart's been running European for quite a while & doing vry well out of it.

QF economy inc. middle seat, just won't stack up against 2-2 business seating.

If QF even mentions how old OzJet's 732's are, there will be a photo of QF's dodgy old 743 in major newspapers.

I think QF are going to be in trouble, with very little room to move. Apparently, OzJet will start with 2 aircraft doing 8 flights a day in each direction MEL/SYD.

I do however, think they will eventually go 2 class, with maybe say 30 C class & 60 Y or something a similar, which give them a lot more flexibility.

Lastly, the aircraft will be available for charter at reasonable rates never before seen in Australia !!!


User currently offlineAussie_ From Australia, joined Dec 2000, 1766 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3449 times:

Qantas already dropped their business class fares on major routes a couple of months ago in anticipation of Ozjet. The new rates are very close to the Full Economy fare level.

Simplicity - how much do you know about this aircraft charter side of things? Could you perhaps email me if you have further info? I am interested!


User currently offlineAntares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 39
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3398 times:

I am not convinced Oz Jet understands who its customers will be.

The frequent (but no longer as high yielding as before) business traveller is predominantly drawn from corporate accounts, have little or no control over choice of carrier, and are largely unavailable to Oz Jet.

The rich individual market who already flies in domestic business class with Qantas and has club status and FF points is both very small in proportion to the rest of the market, and can't be prised out of the Qantas Club longes even with a crowbar.

The sole trader or SME independent traveller, the ones largely enticed to fly more often than before by the dramatic fall in fares in real terms since 2000, is a potential target for Oz Jet, but they currently have an FFP option with Qantas and will get one with Virgin Blue no doubt by the New year.

I doubt this last sector is sufficiently large to support Oz Jet, and it is price sensitive. It will pay a premium as it does now to fly Virgin Blue rather than Jetstar but it is difficult to see Oz Jet collecting a sufficiently high 'premium' over the current range of Y fares to survive.

Remember. Oz Jet will be stalked by the estalbished carriers using as much information they can extract from all distribution channels as possible, plus the inevitable 'spy' with a hand clicker working the gates when Oz Jet comes and goes.

Using such information the incumbents will selectively price against Oz Jet.

It is difficult to work out whether this is a dumber project than Rekkof's un-dead Fokkers. Probably not, At least it has some airliners to play with.

Antares


User currently offlineSimpilicity From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3296 times:

Quoting Antares (Reply 6):
I am not convinced Oz Jet understands who its customers will be.

Think they know EXACTLY who their customers are:-

1) public servants who aren't at high enough level to fly business class at QF fares, but can on OzJet (wank value)

2) business types who fly a lot but in economy & sometimes get stuck in middle seat.


User currently offlineAntares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 39
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3251 times:

Simplicity,

If so they have identified people who will want to fly Oz Jet, or at least seriously think about so doing.

But both groups predominantly have no power over their choice of airline. Public servants largely fly how QBT (Qantas Business Travel) tells them to, just ask Virgin Blue and REX!

There is a pool of truly independent domestic business purposes travellers for Oz Jet to seek. A sub set of that group never bothers asking how much the fare costs because it doesn't matter to them and they usually fly in business class and will not be moved, be assured, out of their Qantas Club rooms.

The others can be won over if the price and schedule is right. But let us look at the nature of the market. There are no detailed impartial breakdowns of domestic travellers available. What we often do is set a line, say at $200 including all taxes etc, below which the customer is by far most likely to be a bargain hunting, seldom flying leisure traveller.

Above $200, the customer is more likely flying for professional reasons and far less likely to tolerate the conditionality of the very cheapest fares.

These genuinely independent business oriented travellers, largely self employed or working for the very few firms in the country who aren't counting every cent of their business travel budgets, may struggle to represent 5-6% of total passengers boarded country wide.

Oz Jet would find it hard to survive if it won 100% of that sector. Because of its limited network, it can only address about 50% of them anyhow, predominantly in the golden triangle.

It will be competing against Qantas Clubs, Blue Rooms and Suit Zones and barely concealed Qantas plans to offer upgrades galore to full Y passengers anyhow to remove them from the Oz Jet temptation.

So out of that notional 5-6% of the total business oriented market, Oz Jet will struggle to get a third, or about 2% of the total domestic market, if it lasts long enough.

I respect Mr Stoddart for having a go and risking his and his associates money. And they will loose it, all of it, every last dollar.

Antares


User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3252 times:

Quoting Simpilicity (Reply 4):
Hardly unknown, Stoddart's been running European for quite a while & doing vry well out of it.

I suggest you do a little more fact finding before you make a statement like that! Stoddard ran EAC into the ground. If his track record is to be used as a guide, he will do the same with OzJet.


User currently offlineSimpilicity From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3240 times:

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 9):
Quoting Simpilicity (Reply 4):
Hardly unknown, Stoddart's been running European for quite a while & doing vry well out of it.

I suggest you do a little more fact finding before you make a statement like that! Stoddard ran EAC into the ground. If his track record is to be used as a guide, he will do the same with OzJet.

From what I understand, he sold EAAC to a management company who stuffed it up & then, as they couldn't make 3rd progress payment, he took the compaany & aircraft back !!!


User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3189 times:

Quoting Simpilicity (Reply 10):
From what I understand, he sold EAAC to a management company who stuffed it up & then, as they couldn't make 3rd progress payment, he took the compaany & aircraft back !!!

That is totally incorrect. Stoddard had been trying to sell EAC, but no one would buy it for the price he wanted. He's the one that stuffed it up. I'm sure the same will happen at OzJet. He needs to decide if he wants to run an airline or F1 cars!


User currently offlineSimpilicity From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3159 times:

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 11):
From what I understand, he sold EAAC to a management company who stuffed it up & then, as they couldn't make 3rd progress payment, he took the compaany & aircraft back !!!

That is totally incorrect. Stoddard had been trying to sell EAC, but no one would buy it for the price he wanted. He's the one that stuffed it up. I'm sure the same will happen at OzJet. He needs to decide if he wants to run an airline or F1 cars!

He sold Minardi a while ago for USD$35 Million.

He sold EAAC, with 3 progress payments. They paid #1, #2, then asked for an extension on #3, which he gave, but they couldn't do it, so he took it all back.

That's the story, we 've been told & in the media here. I'm sure if it wasn't accurate, someone in the media, would have picked up by now.

Sounds like you have a grudge against him or EAAC? Did u used to work for them?

I think it's going to be hard to OzJet to not succeed. They'd have to try hard to fail, with his overheads so low. Lowest in Australia by far !!! & that's the name of the game, keeping costs LOW !!!


User currently offlineAntares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 39
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3143 times:

Simplicity,

If they were keeping costs low in the current fuel environment they wouldn't be using the 732 or as occasionally mentioned the BAe146.

If costs are to be kept low in maintenance and support they wouldn't be using either type of jet.

If they are to succeed despite those handicaps, they need to overcome the grip of the established brands and break the hold of corporate accounts over the selection of the carrier in which the overwhelmingly large proportion of frquent business travellers travel.

There are simply not enough people with the freedom of choice and price/value inclinations to feed Oz Jet.

Our discussion would be more meaningful if we were all allowed an insight by Mr Stoddart into his exit strategy.

Antares


User currently offlineSimpilicity From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3102 times:

Quoting Antares (Reply 13):
If they were keeping costs low in the current fuel environment they wouldn't be using the 732 or as occasionally mentioned the BAe146.

If costs are to be kept low in maintenance and support they wouldn't be using either type of jet.

for 732's OzJet have got no aircraft leasing costs & have plenty of spares themselves.

As mentioned earlier, they can park aircraft for a few hours in the middle of the day, whereas QF & DJ must keep theirs moving due to leasing costs & overheads.

What would you rather do, fly in a nice new business class seat, with easy check in & carry on 3 bags, or sit in QF economy & have to wait at baggage carosel for bags to appear hopefully eventually.

Many people will give OzJet a go & many more have choice than you think, especially if it means spending less of the company they work for's money !!!

It took DJ a while but they now carry a good number of corporates, but they're always looking for more.


User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3076 times:

Quoting Simpilicity (Reply 12):
That's the story, we 've been told & in the media here. I'm sure if it wasn't accurate, someone in the media, would have picked up by now.

Sounds like you have a grudge against him or EAAC? Did u used to work for them?

Sorry to tell you it's not true. EAAC was on the block for over a year. The books never were fully audited because of problems at EAAC.

No, never worked for them, never knew anyone who did. However, I did live in the UK and knew all about them. If OzJet is anything like EAAC, you're in for a heap of trouble.

Stoddard will do things on the cheap. He will promise anything he thinks people want and will deliver nothing!

Quoting Simpilicity (Reply 14):
for 732's OzJet have got no aircraft leasing costs & have plenty of spares themselves

He might not have any leasing costs, but there are ownership costs. If he's not leasing the aircraft then he's tied up capital, not his own I guarantee you, to purchase the aircraft. Starting any airline with 737-200 is the most idiotic thing I've ever heard. Even a 3/4/500 makes more sense than that.

Low overhead? Maybe, but his direct operating costs are going to be sky high. Just take a look at what is CASM will be. Again, I think OzJet is probably the biggest joke in the world!

Sounds to me as if you have been drinking his coolaid. Perhaps a little too much of it!


User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3339 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days ago) and read 3059 times:

Quoting Antares (Reply 13):
Our discussion would be more meaningful if we were all allowed an insight by Mr Stoddart into his exit strategy.

I suspect Stoddart's exit strategy will be to sell Ozjet in whatever shape or form its in to either SQ or EK.

Neither of these carriers would then need to fart around with the Australian authorities.

Pick up an 'australian' carrier for next to nothing, and use the Ozjet name for longhaul into North America. The name Ozjet would be appealing in the market...

Just imagine what 'Ozjet' would do as an 800 seat A380 outfit operating LAX-SYD for EK!


User currently offlineAntares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 39
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days ago) and read 3031 times:

6thfreedom,

Interesting thoughts. But if my mail is correct, the low cost long haul subsidiaries of SQ and QF will have implimented large capacity long haul 'value' product jets long before Oz Jet, should it implausibly survive and expand.

Be absolutely assured, SQ and EK would have nothing to do with Stoddard.

The rules allow 100 % foreign ownership of a domestic Australian carrier by a carrier that doesn't already fly to this country, and up to (memory fade) around 35% equity if they already do. There is no issue with the authorites as you put it, the only issue being fitness to fly with an AOC (which is specific as to type) and how deep your cash reserves are in a market with two very profitable and well established groupings.

Antares


User currently offlineANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 3 days ago) and read 3031 times:

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 16):
I suspect Stoddart's exit strategy will be to sell Ozjet in whatever shape or form its in to either SQ or EK.

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe to operate in Australia you need to be owned, and controlled, by Australian (or New Zealand) citizens.

If EK or SQ wanted domestic feed operations, they would have found some way of doing so before now.


User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3339 posts, RR: 20
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2880 times:

Antares,

You may be right. i'll double check my facts.
perhaps i'm confusing it with the whole SQ/VS/DJ structurem which I think gave VS/DJ the first right to operate new routes ex-Australia with the DJ name.

But even with a 35% ownership, I think it would still be an attractive options for SQ should the Aust Govt keep up the barriers for SQ to operate to North America.

Also interesting to read that the whole Pacific access issue has caused such as a sh*t fight in Cabinet earlier this week.

No doubt that Costello and Vaile are supporting greater competition.

I wonder which pollies with QF Chairman Club access are against it??


User currently offlineAntares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 39
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2865 times:

6thfreedom,

The important thing about SQ is that it was able to con Qantas massively over its interest in starting a domestic airline following the Ansett collapse.

Qantas was far more worried about that than Virgin Blue at the time, which only had 7 jets not the 51 flying today. So it gave SQ the most amazingly cheap pro-rata deals ever seen in Australia to connect secondary cities to SQ's Australian gateways. These were so cheap that QF oneworld partner CX has been vomiting ever since. But they also removed the 'threat' hollow that it was, that SQ would throw another $500 million on the barbie after already burning something like that amount of money on its error riddled tilt at effective control of Air New Zealand/Ansett as it then was.

I can't read the feral cabinet. I know what I'd like to see happen. Which is to on one hand open up Qantas to more competition where this is in the national interest, and on the other, repeal the Qantas sale act and allow it to capitalise on its good name and business plan and get the cheap cash it needs to compete fairly against SQ and EK.

Sadly, such neat solutions are often a pipe dream and the real world will no doubt bite us on the backside in various ways, but I hope not to the unfair detriment of Qantas.

Antares


User currently offlineGardermoen From Australia, joined Jul 1999, 1523 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2816 times:

Ozjet confirms schedules with flight set to start Nov 29 between MEL and SYD.

No matter who ends up flying them, good luck and I hope they last!

all details on their web site www.ozjet.com.au


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3224 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2781 times:

Quoting YUAMB (Reply 1):
On top of that, what about reliability? If an OzJet plane needs to go to maintenance, they dont exactly have much to step in. Qf would have no problem however.

The 732 is a good workhorse of a plane even though it is old. Guys this is going to be somewhat like the NWA DC0-9 situation. JT8D maintenance isn't too expensive because of the very big production run, so that shouldn't be too expensive. Also, the fuel burn of the 732 isn't THAT much more than the 735. Think of it like this. If fuel represents 20% of my CASM, and i bring a new aircraft onto the market that is 20% more efficient, my total fuel saving may be 20%, but my total operating costs saved is only 4%. This is the reason freight companies often use older aircraft, because they don't get the same kind of daily flying time, the financing costs (for newer aircraft) become more expensive and aren't offset by fuel savings.

Also think of it like this. Studdard is going to be employing young 20somethings F/A's who probably only make $27K per year, and who probably fly back to their base each night so they've got no hotel bills. Actually their wages could be lower than that again because they may only be needed part time, but it would be a similar hourly rate to $27 K per year. He could probably afford to offer business class at somewhere around the $160 mark for Syd-Mel. I wouldn't be surprised to see 'advance purchase' type tickets offered at these rates... Now if he stuck new interiors in these 732s, nobody would even notice their age. Anybody who has been on the NWA DC-9s can tell you passengers think they're on a new plane.

Ozjet may not need lounges... it could turns its gates or gate (they may only need 1) into a virtual lounge at each end, with italian furniture, drinks etc there and then.

Basically although i think this market is small...their may actually be some room for it provided they don't try and get too big.


User currently offlineSimpilicity From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2757 times:

thank you Lufthansa. Finally someone who knows what they are talking about.

As I said earlier OzJet's overheads will be incredibly low, but there will be a lot of public servants, who can't fly QF business & so could get stuck in middle seat in economy, who will be able to fly OzJet at their lower fares.

Plus there's a lot of business types who fly QF fully flexible economy, who would much rather fly OzJet business.

Have you seen the ridiculous queues at QF economy checkin lately especially in BNE. That's enough reason alone NOT to fly QF.


User currently offlineJupiter2 From Australia, joined Jan 2001, 915 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2745 times:

Simpilicity,

You would appear to be the one with the beef.... with QF. All your posts seem to be anti QF.

Anyway, I wish Ozjet well, but I give them 6 months, I hope I'm wrong.

Why do you think Public servants get a choice ??? Government is like any other business and has been mentioned they are either tied to QF or DJ and the individual rarely gets to choose.

I just hope for Ozjet that one of their you beaut, dirt cheap to own and operate 732's don't break down in the first couple of weeks of service. If one did and they are down to one aircraft for a couple of days, cancelling half their flights, the competition and the media will have a field day, not that I will believe it will affect all that many passengers.

RL


25 Antares : Simplicity, If you knew what you were talking about you would know that there are almost no public servants who get to choose who they fly with. This
26 Simpilicity : Jupiter2 if OzJet had to they could change to 2 class very VERY quickly (for 3 aircraft talking a couple of days or nights), then they could do plenty
27 KiwiinOz : My prediction, Ozjet will fail. Sounds negative I know, but working in the travel industry, I am fairly confident in saying there is nearly zero inter
28 Jupiter2 : Simiplicity, They currently have 2 aircraft, their schedule released today indictaes 8 daily flights on each of SYD/MEL and v.v. Now if another aircra
29 TBCITDG : One must also look at FFP that will not be offered by the likes of Ozjet. They have no International affiliation with another airline and above all th
30 PhilSquares : I don't think they'll be quite as low as you might think. I raised the issue of "ownership" costs v. leasing with you and you chose to ignore that. H
31 Marara : As aussie_ has said QF have already intro'd near Y fares, but from what ive read these are only available at off peak times. DJ are about to launch th
32 Antares : Marara, DJ fares have been accessible by the GDS for a while now, although not the web specials. If your agency uses ARNOLD technology, our own homegr
33 Simpilicity : I think OzJet gates will be "lounges". They are talking 10-12 aircraft by middle of 2006. Re f.f. points. Another major downgrade of QF's programme is
34 Marara : Simpilicity, if you are paying cash at a travel agency you are able to get a 1% discount, the agent just needs to know about the entry - most dont ( b
35 Simpilicity : Sorry I wasn't referring to domestic airfares, but rather general retail etc.
36 Antares : Marara, Thanks for the feedback on DJ. I quite like them too, although I'm not sure who is going to end up with control or what that group, if there i
37 PhilSquares : Seems as if things aren't too good at EAC right now. Most employees have been made redundant and they're shutting down operations. Apparently Corsair
38 ClassicLover : Oh really? In relation to credit card points alone, or something else? Do tell. As long as it's not to status credits, I really couldn't give a damn.
39 7LBAC111 : True, but certainly in the UK, the majority of my accounts have clauses which allow employees to travel on alternate (nonpreferred carriers) IF they
40 RichardJF : OZjet will get a very loyal following. This may well get them past the lower reliability issue. A lot of people are going to love a 2+2 737 over 3+3.
41 Antares : RichardJF, An early problem is broken promises. It promised ad nauseum business class at economy fares. It is on the market as of yesterday at $305 on
42 RichardJF : You can't promote an airline for fat people which is what Stoddart correctly understood. It's far better to pitch it as a business airline. Day to day
43 Antares : RichardJF, Please explain the difference between 'a bit chaotic' and telling a porky. He isn't doing what he promised he'd do. You've chosen an exotic
44 Marara : Antares If you look at the fares Ozjet has out they are only the Ozbiz and Ozflexi or something similar. They haven't loaded the Ozsaver fares yet - t
45 Simpilicity : OzJet won't be competing with DJ or JQ. It's only QF they'll be competing against. The last minute checkin, 3 bags on board weighing up to 20kgs, as
46 Antares : Simplicity, Being more costly than QF in economy by a large margin and cheaper than QF in J off peak by a small margin is not a very good start, and i
47 Post contains images QFA001 : How about this chestnut (apologies if I'm repeating): "Mr Stoddart said there was plenty of room for Ozjet in the local short-haul airline industry f
48 Antares : QFA001, Really don't know the answer. I agree with 'not long' on what we have been told, but we haven't been told if a rich (and ill advised) backer i
49 Simpilicity : That's fine, but reps cost a lot of money. A lot of reps work can be done via email. Obviously, nothing is better than a personal visit, but it's 200
50 Post contains images QFA001 : If it is possible to have a one-nail coffin, I think you hammered it in. Having said that, Stoddart somehow manages to keep his businesses afloat. Ma
51 Simpilicity : Most ex AN staff thought they were worth the ridiculous amounts they were paid & the crazy perks & work rules they palyed on. Most (not all) should be
52 Antares : Simplicity, The Oz Jet web site says they are more expensive, by a whacking great margin too. Do the trial bookings yourself. 'Tis a cruel world. (Min
53 Simpilicity : just did a check of QF website against 07 website for 30NOV SYD/MEL/SYD. QF fully flexible Y = AUD$371 & $374 07 business = AUD$305-$325 each way NO C
54 RichardJF : Paul Stoddart is "that nice young man flying the planes with the lovely big seats." He's going onto a very busy route with something very different th
55 Simpilicity : I agree. I don't see how he can lose. He'll have to try relly hard to stuff it up.
56 KiwiinOz : Actually, primarily corporate. And to clarify, not much interest from within the sector. In particular 2 of the largest corporate travel managers in
57 Antares : Simplicity, Uh, hullo...you forgot to look at Virgin Blue. Plenty of offers of $245 fully flexible one way either way, and $265 in the Suit Zone, SYD-
58 RichardJF : Are Virgin Blue getting the big comfortable seats?
59 Antares : RichardJF, Pay attention. the Oz Jet promise was for the big seats at the same price as a fully flexible Y seat. That promise has been broken within 2
60 RichardJF : Antares-BTW whats the state of play with DJ's live TV?
61 Antares : Last I read they were coming early in the New Year. If it is as good as claimed, just like the JetBlue/Frontier system, it will be a very big plus for
62 Post contains images Marara : Antares, If you look at the conditions on DJ's Fully Flexible tickets you will see that they are not real 'full Y' fares, they are still quite restric
63 Simpilicity : U can't compare QF fully flexible Y & DJ Y !!! Not likely !!
64 KiwiinOz : Over 90% of corporate travel in Australia is still booked via 3rd party travel agents. The trend to direct booking with airline operators is happenin
65 RichardJF : Or perhaps you could rephrase that " It's not the correct business model that Qantas wants to see "
66 Marara : Kiwi, do you mean deals such as preffered status ?
67 Antares : Simplicity, So what. I also quoted the Suit Zone fare which has the least conditions of all, you can even change the employees name before you do the
68 RichardJF : Another central reason why Ozjet will work is that in a sector of the market the Virgin brand is........ loathed. Who are you going to support British
69 Antares : RichardJF, Cold shower time. The seats we loath on the Virgin Blue jets are the same as on board Qantas and Air NZ except for about one-two cms more s
70 RichardJF : All I'm saying is that the Virgin blue brand is a high risk strategy and that this issue hasn't played out. I know what your saying Ozjet looks all ho
71 Aussie_ : I for one am excited by ozjet. They give competition in a much needed sector. However, the media has not taken to the launch, meaning some hefty adver
72 HKGKaiTak : Well I for one thinks OzJet will flop ... but, we'll wait & see. Stoddart does have a business plan he thinks will work and it's clearly not a fly-by-
73 Simpilicity : another person who doesn't understand the economics. OZJET HAS INCREDIBLY LOW OVERHEADS !!! AIRBUS'S LEAHY YESTERDAY SAID THAT 1/3 OF TRAVELLERS BASE
74 JeepBoy : Antares, There seems to be a recurring theme here? One would like to think that all of us would be excited that a new domestic airline is starting up
75 Antares : JeepBoy, Your complaints may be valid. My complaint is that Oz Jet has already broken its core promise, and is charging a $325 one way fare that is mo
76 RichardJF : No it isn't. The pear shaped woman 1. absolutely hates sexism..... a major problem for DJ in a 3 airline market. 2. loves the big seat. A bunch of pe
77 JeepBoy : Antares, I think you'll see some fare changes matching soon. They are not really targetting the locked in QF corporate clients. They may be able to wi
78 Antares : RichardJF, Pear shaped women are beautiful too. Just think Brett Whitely's famous painting. No don't if you are in a public place. Anyhow, I'm all for
79 RichardJF : Personally I'd always go with a more amateurish good idea than a professionally executed bad idea. Despite what I say about the Virgin Blue brand I'm
80 Antares : RichardJF, Well according to a statement on commercial radio a short while ago, DJ just announced a frequent flyer program with Emirates as a partner,
81 RichardJF : This is wonderful news. Like I say Ozjet will be fine because he's not targeting what you think.
82 Marara : Its true that DJ have launched Velocity, their Frequent Flyer program. What is to stop O7 becoming a earn and burn member of another airlines FFP thou
83 Antares : Marara, NZ might become a Velocity partner since it is already a VS partner. Dunno, but possible. The result of this challenge to the Qantas scheme co
84 RichardJF : NZ has a very nice position and any sort of tie up with either QF or DJ would be a major strategic blunder. If he bought/leased new planes with stand
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