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What Led DL And CO To Go All-Boeing?  
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6536 posts, RR: 2
Posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6188 times:

Was there a catalyst for Delta and Continental to go all-Boeing (including McD)? More airlines I believe are going all-Airbus, and most airlines are operating mixed fleets.

What made Delta and Continental order 737NGs, 767-400ERs, and 777-200ERs over A320 family aircraft, A330-200s, and A340-300s?


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5032 posts, RR: 43
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6146 times:

Pretty simple: Boeing offered them a deal they couldn't refuse, i.e. steep discounts in exchange for exclusivity. At the time the deals were announced, there was a clause in the contracts that stipulated the airlines (AA, DL and CO) could ONLY buy Boeings for their mainline fleets for the next 20 years. These clauses were removed as a condition to win EU approval for the Boeing-McDD merger, as they were deemed anti-competitive, but the prices remained.

For CO, there's the additional fact that CO's boss, Bethune (who recently left I believe) was a former Boeing boss.


User currently offlinePanAm330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2679 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6141 times:

Well, I'd guess that Gordon Bethune had a little bit to do with CO not ordering an Airbus after they ordered the A300, although I believe that they ordered the A340 as well, which was much more recent and was never taken up.

User currently offlineAirEMS From United States of America, joined May 2004, 684 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6097 times:

Does DL still fly any MD-8X?? or have they retired to the land of Sand and sun?


If Your Dying Were Flying
User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6090 times:

It's also a question of timing. Remember that the US market typically has been 1/2 of world wide lift. DL and CO have been around forever, and typically have been launch for either McDD or Boeing. Airbus has only really been competitive for the last 15-20 years or so, at which time CO and DL already had mostly Boeing fleet.

User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6536 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6079 times:

Quoting AirEMS (Reply 3):
Does DL still fly any MD-8X?? or have they retired to the land of Sand and sun?

Yes, Delta still flies MD-88s as well as MD-90s.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineLemurs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1439 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6050 times:

It's hard to say why this would be a bad thing either. In CO's case, their oldest airplanes are 733's and 735's, and most of them are still less than 10 years old. Otherwise it's hard to argue that any Airbus makes more sense for CO than what they operate now. (Don't read too much into that. I'm not saying they're worse. I'm just saying for what CO needed, the Boeing A/C do great.) They've now managed to consolidate around 4 main types for their entire fleet that all perform their role well. 737/757/767/777 (plus soon 787) The only one that you could really argue would be an obviously better fit is the A332 in place of the 764. It wouldn't make much sense to order an entire new type though since the 762/764/772 share a common rating, which lets them have crew flexibility.


There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
User currently offlineCory6188 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2686 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5871 times:

The use of the same manufacturer, at least in CO's case, also allows for a great amount of consistency for the CO product. Whether you're in a 735 or 777, all of the Boeing aircraft interiors look almost identical - seats, cabin design, everything.

Well, on second thought, that just might result from the fact that CO tries really hard to keep their planes in good shape, but either way, there is a definite difference between the interior of an Airbus and a Boeing.

On a side note, Bethune's legacy at CO doesn't exactly make the airline too endearing towards Airbus.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5846 times:

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 6):
In CO's case, their oldest airplanes are 733's and 735's, and most of them are still less than 10 years old.

Most of the 733's are between 10 and about 16 years of age, actually, the 735's a little younger.

As for CO, several factors:

-Gordon Bethune came abord from Boeing

-CO decided to simplify it's fleet structure, and, since most it's aircraft were Boeing, it was a natural choice

-CO had an absolutely terrible experience dealing with the A-300's.

Pretty simple, really.


User currently offlinePlaneDane From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5663 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
Was there a catalyst for Delta and Continental to go all-Boeing (including McD)? More airlines I believe are going all-Airbus, and most airlines are operating mixed fleets.

What made Delta and Continental order 737NGs, 767-400ERs, and 777-200ERs over A320 family aircraft, A330-200s, and A340-300s?

It has everything to do with running an airline well. A good airline looks for a single source supplier for all of its needs now like for catering, reservations, maintenance and not just for aircraft.

For these airlines, going with just Boeing reduces cost dramatically. Having a single source for aircraft, parts, customer support, etc. reduces overhead and complexity and makes for a much more efficient operation.

This partnership between Boeing and these airlines even extends to having direct input into future product design and collaboration on various other projects.

It is a very symbiotic relationship Boeing enjoys with many airlines nowadays.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26499 posts, RR: 75
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5654 times:

Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 2):

Well, I'd guess that Gordon Bethune had a little bit to do with CO not ordering an Airbus after they ordered the A300, although I believe that they ordered the A340 as well, which was much more recent and was never taken up.

CO's A300s came from Eastern. Also, the A340s were ordered pre-Bethune

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 6):
It wouldn't make much sense to order an entire new type though since the 762/764/772 share a common rating, which lets them have crew flexibility.

The 777 does not share a common rating with any 767. CO does however have common ratings and cross crewing on their 752/753/762/764 fleets.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineMarshalN From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2005, 1521 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5630 times:

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 9):
It has everything to do with running an airline well. A good airline looks for a single source supplier for all of its needs now like for catering, reservations, maintenance and not just for aircraft.

For these airlines, going with just Boeing reduces cost dramatically. Having a single source for aircraft, parts, customer support, etc. reduces overhead and complexity and makes for a much more efficient operation.

This partnership between Boeing and these airlines even extends to having direct input into future product design and collaboration on various other projects.

It is a very symbiotic relationship Boeing enjoys with many airlines nowadays.

Actually, when a seller knows you only want to buy their product, they actually tend to jack up their prices. The best strategy for the buyer is to play the two suppliers off each other and thus get the best price for what they need. Exclusivity is not the most rational choice.


User currently offlineBigB From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 596 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5619 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 10):
The 777 does not share a common rating with any 767. CO does however have common ratings and cross crewing on their 752/753/762/764 fleets.

Which brings the their fleet to bascially 3 types, 737, 757/767, 777. That what you call effecient.



ETSN Baber, USN
User currently offlineLemurs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1439 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5595 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 10):
The 777 does not share a common rating with any 767. CO does however have common ratings and cross crewing on their 752/753/762/764 fleets.

I thought the 764 did? Or is that just a configurable option? It's also possible I imagined it. I thought the 764/777 shared a rating, and the 762/757 shared rating, and CO staffed as such...



There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1619 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5421 times:

CO Operated DC-10's untill just after 9/11 and MD-80's left last year.....

Also the A300-b4's and b'2 Were dogs for CO and Couldn't fly to HNL or Overwater..


User currently offlineMD90fan From Bahamas, joined Jul 2005, 2931 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5397 times:

Also DL and CO also have 764/ER's because they were designed to their specifications to replace their tri-jet fleets of L-1011's and DC-10's respectively  Smile .


http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
User currently offlinePHXinterrupted From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 474 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5366 times:

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 1):
Pretty simple: Boeing offered them a deal they couldn't refuse, i.e. steep discounts in exchange for exclusivity. At the time the deals were announced, there was a clause in the contracts that stipulated the airlines (AA, DL and CO) could ONLY buy Boeings for their mainline fleets for the next 20 years. These clauses were removed as a condition to win EU approval for the Boeing-McDD merger, as they were deemed anti-competitive, but the prices remained.

For CO, there's the additional fact that CO's boss, Bethune (who recently left I believe) was a former Boeing boss.

Pretty simple: Boeing had the better product for these airlines.



Keepin' it real.
User currently offlineJetMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5346 times:

Quoting PHXinterrupted (Reply 16):

Pretty simple: Boeing had the better product for these airlines.

And exclusive deals (= resulting in low pricing), along with one CEO formerly employed by Boeing, you forgot to add...  Smile


Regards,
JM


User currently offlineContrails From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 1833 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5332 times:

I think it's because Boeing is an American company and builds the best airplanes in the history of aviation.

Just my opinion.



Flying Colors Forever!
User currently offlineJetMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5327 times:

Quoting Contrails (Reply 18):
I think it's because Boeing is an American company and builds the best airplanes in the history of aviation.

I don't think multi-billion companies base their fleet decisions on patriotic feelings...money has no nationality.  Wink


Regards,
JM


User currently offlineCALPilot From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 998 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5312 times:

[quote=Lemurs,reply=13]thought the 764 did? Or is that just a configurable option? It's also possible I imagined it. I thought the 764/777 shared a rating, and the 762/757 shared rating, and CO staffed as such[/quot

No, the Type rating in my pocket is only for the B757/B767, I do not have a rating to fly the B777.

And no, there is not an option for the ratings between the 767 & 777 to cross.

CO pilot sub-bases are three; B737, B757/767, B777.


User currently offlineOttoPylit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5163 times:

For the longest time, Delta was an exclusive Douglas customer. Mr. C.E. Woolman and Donald Douglas were good friends, and Woolman would call Douglas at home to place orders. It was only until after Woolman died that Boeing had any chance of scoring a Delta order.

Many American companies like to promote the American economy. Face it, Boeing and Airbus build similar aircraft, so no one airplane is better suited for a route than another. Boeing is an American company and now the lone American company, although Delta has bought MDD and Lockheed before when they were in the game. Americans hate seeing things that say "Built in Taiwan" or what not, so knowing they are on something that was built in the U.S. certainly couldn't hurt, whether the passenger cares or not.

Boeing has also been around longer than Airbus.

Delta also ended up inheriting some A-310's from the Pan Am purchase and were not happy with them at all. From the A-310's bought, they were all gone by 1995, I believe. Airbus products just don't suit Delta, and I'm happy about that, but thats just me. I don't fly airplanes who's names end with "bus." LOL


OttoPylit


User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5122 times:

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 21):
Delta also ended up inheriting some A-310's from the Pan Am purchase and were not happy with them at all. From the A-310's bought, they were all gone by 1995, I believe.

DL also ordered some directly from Airbus after picking up the PA ones. DL wasn't too happy with the customer support Airbus gave them (let's just say practically nil since DL wasn't interested in the rest of Airbus' lineup), so out went the A310s and any chance of any additional Airbus a/c in the DL fleet.


Boeing became the preferred supplier even before MDD was merged into Boeing. The shortcomings of the MD-11 and the issues early on with the MD-90 (DL was supposed to replace the entire 727 fleet and potentially some of the 737s with the MD-90) caused DL to become exclusively a Boeing customer. Had MDD been successful with the MD-11 and MD-90 programs, I doubt DL would have ever ordered the 737NG and perhaps the 777. DL would have had a fleet of MD-88/90/95 (including the various series of the 90 and 95 MDD had planned), the MD-XX, the MD-11, and possibly the MD-12, and perhaps MDD would have developed a widebody twin as well.


User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5078 times:

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 22):
DL also ordered some directly from Airbus after picking up the PA ones. DL wasn't too happy with the customer support Airbus gave them (let's just say practically nil since DL wasn't interested in the rest of Airbus' lineup), so out went the A310s and any chance of any additional Airbus a/c in the DL fleet.

In 1990 Delta asked Airbus to use Lockheed customer support as a prerequisite to the purchase additional Airbus aircraft. Lockheed customer support personal made a couple of trips to Toulouse for discussions but nothing ever came of it and Delta dumped the A310's a few years later.


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