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Delta & Winglets  
User currently offlineAbrelosojos From Venezuela, joined May 2005, 5090 posts, RR: 55
Posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2707 times:

Is DL the only major airline not to have any winglets on any of its MAINLINE aircraft fleets? This was my random thought on flight number 54 in 30 days on DL.

-A.


Live, and let live.
12 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinePIA777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1738 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2703 times:

They had them before on MD-11s. Does UA have them?

PIA777



GO CUBS!!
User currently offlineSonOfACaptain From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1747 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2685 times:

Quoting PIA777 (Reply 1):
Does UA have them?

744, and the A320 family if you want to count them.

-SOAC

[Edited 2005-11-13 07:26:40]


Non Illegitimi Carborundum
User currently offlineFlynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2555 times:

Delta also flew the A310 which is equipped with them.


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User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12142 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2549 times:

DL also had them on a few B-727-200s. But, I thought that they were planning to install them on the B-737-800s.

User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2513 times:

While not directly winglets per se, DL does have wingtip fences on their 764s. Not the same as winglets, but they serve the same role.
DL currently doesn't have any plans to put any winglets on either of their planes, though in the long term, I would expect winglets to be put on both the 757 and 738, as those will be mostly used for transcon flying and most Latin America flying.
In the past, winglet-equipped planes included the A310s, the MD-11s, and test-wise also 2 727s (N510DL and N511DL IIRC), which were equipped with (Valsan?) winglets for several trials, but in the end DL wasn't satisfied with the results.


User currently offlineJumbojet From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2491 times:

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 5):
but in the end DL wasn't satisfied with the results.

i read somewhere that the annual savings could be in the hundreds of thousnds of dollars, of course considering the route flown and how many hours the plane is used. Which would of course also save the useage of jet fuel. Prob just another cost DL could do without for now, even with all the savings built in.


User currently offlineHawaiian717 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3193 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 2400 times:

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 5):
While not directly winglets per se, DL does have wingtip fences on their 764s. Not the same as winglets, but they serve the same role.

Those are raked wingtips, not wingtip fences.


User currently offlineGQfluffy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 2342 times:

Quoting Jumbojet (Reply 6):
Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 5):
but in the end DL wasn't satisfied with the results.

i read somewhere that the annual savings could be in the hundreds of thousnds of dollars, of course considering the route flown and how many hours the plane is used. Which would of course also save the useage of jet fuel. Prob just another cost DL could do without for now, even with all the savings built in.

I think Jumbojet was refering to DL putting winglets on the 727, not the 757 or the 738. The winglets lowered the 727's fuel burn, but not really enough to make a difference. The good ole 727 just burns too much.  Sad


User currently offlineAeroWeanie From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1609 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 2228 times:
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Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 8):
The winglets lowered the 727's fuel burn, but not really enough to make a difference.

Not so. Delta measured the guarenteed 5% savings while flying two 727s with Valsan winglets for a year. 5% is good, even with cheap jet fuel. What killed it was that Boeing stated that the structures would no longer by warenteed if the aircraft flew with winglets.


User currently offlineAkjetBlue From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 790 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 2164 times:

I'm not sure how long it lasted but it was done with the 727s and short lived.


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User currently offlineAbrelosojos From Venezuela, joined May 2005, 5090 posts, RR: 55
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 2107 times:

Thanks all. Can someone give me a crash course on the different types of winglets and the advantage/disadvantages? Otherwise post me a link which has some info -

Thanks,
A.



Live, and let live.
User currently offlineAeroWeanie From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1609 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 2044 times:
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Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 11):
Thanks all. Can someone give me a crash course on the different types of winglets and the advantage/disadvantages?

My post from a Tech/Ops thread, back in March:

For a first-order analysis of the benefit from a winglet, lay it down flat as if it was a span extension. Hence, taller is better. Then, look at whether the winglet joins the wing in a sharp break or a smooth flow. Smooth is better.

Using this criteria, I'll rank the winglets (and raked tip):

1) The A3100/310/318/319/320/321/380 "winglets" are the least effective, but also increase wing bending moments the least. I have never seen a published number for how much they reduce drag (even Jupp's patent US4,714,215 says little), but I'd guess they are worth 1-1.5% drag improvement.

2) The MD-11 winglets come next. They are a direct outgrowth of Whitcomb's original designs. I have some NASA reports on the flight testing of a similar winglet on a DC-10. According to CR-3704, these winglets are produce a 2-2.5% drag reduction in cruise.

3) The Valsan/Quietwing 727 winglets are a latter Whitcomb influenced design. Coupled with a flap droop on the 727, they are reputed to be worth about 5%. The flap droop reduces wing bending moments and helps reduce wave drag, so the 5% is a mixture of effects. The winglet by itself is probably worth about 3%.

4) The 747-400 and A330/340 winglets are rather similar. They fall on the wing span extension line. I've read that the 747-400 winglets produce about a 3.5% drag reduction.

5) The 776-400ER/777-300ER/777-200LR raked tips also fall on the span extension line. They produce varying amounts of drag reduction, depending on their span. They also increase wing bending moments quite a bit.

6) The API/APB blended winglets produce better results than the span extension line indicates. The 737NG winglets are first generation and I've read that they produce about a 4.5% drag reduction. Later API/APB winglets improve on this.


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