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A350 Advances, Akin To 787?  
User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 27
Posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5271 times:

As I know, among the many tech and comfort advances that will be integrated into the 787 are things such as larger windows that allow the pax to see the horizon, cabin humidity for less jetlag, wider seats, minimal fuel consumption, etc.

What I don't know is what advances Airbus planning for the A350?


I ask, because I just recently took a trip on an A318, and saw the very-advanced cabin display for the F/As to use......which made me wonder what Airbus is planning for their next jet. (The A318 easily earned the status of being my favorite Airbus. Loved the way it flew, sounds, etc. although I've never been on an Airbus widebody) But I'll leave all that for another discussion...

So what of the A350?


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39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUairFokker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5172 times:

Well, it seems now both Airbus and Boeing care a lot about passengers.
Such is the case with the A380, 787, etc...

Airbus, to successfully compete with the "passenger innovative" Dreamliner, should also apply cabin changes, which, essentially are: bigger cabin dimensions, a kind of ceiling that displays the sky outside it, etc.

In all, Boeing seems much more interested than Airbus on its aircraft comfort level. Airbus is overly interested on economics.

At least this is my view.

Regards,


User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2829 posts, RR: 42
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5125 times:

A lot of the improvements are directly due to the increased use of composites in the plane. Since Airbus is not following Boeing's lead (at least so far) on the composite changeover, the A350 will not have a similar experience.

User currently offlineA350 From Germany, joined Nov 2004, 1101 posts, RR: 22
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5116 times:

Today, there is a new article in Flugrevue about the A350. Airbus plans to improve humidity and cabin pressure as Boeing does on the 787, and Leahy even claims to beat Boeing there. No words about window size
I believe it at my first flight in the A350 :

Quote:
Inside the A350 passenger cabin, which has been slightly enlarged due to the use of flattened ribs, Airbus plans to increase the air humidity to 20 percent, that is, five percent more than in the 787 which already has a particularly comfortable design. Again, the internal pressure will defy the Boeing model, with a typical pressure altitude of only 1,830m.

A350

EDIT: typo

[Edited 2005-11-14 18:43:28]


Photography - the art of observing, not the art of arranging
User currently offlinePlaneDane From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5046 times:

Quoting DIA (Thread starter):
As I know, among the many tech and comfort advances that will be integrated into the 787 are things such as larger windows that allow the pax to see the horizon, cabin humidity for less jetlag, wider seats, minimal fuel consumption, etc.

What I don't know is what advances Airbus planning for the A350?


I ask, because I just recently took a trip on an A318, and saw the very-advanced cabin display for the F/As to use......which made me wonder what Airbus is planning for their next jet. (The A318 easily earned the status of being my favorite Airbus. Loved the way it flew, sounds, etc. although I've never been on an Airbus widebody) But I'll leave all that for another discussion...

So what of the A350?

You'd love the flying experience on an A332 even more, trust me on that.

Airbus has done an admirable job of matching feature for feature what Boeing is offering. However, the problem is that the Airbus solution is severely limited by its reliance on mostly conventional technology.

The A350 will suffer from fatigue and corrosion as any commercial aircraft flying today does while the B787 will not. Fuel consumption, payload capacity and range will be better, but pale in comparison to what the B787 will offer.

However, I believe that we can expect Airbus to compensate for these economic disadvantages of the A350 by offering it at a significantly lower price, which is why airlines are looking at it and orders are being placed.


User currently offlineMusapapaya From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1098 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4724 times:

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 4):
Airbus has done an admirable job of matching feature for feature what Boeing is offering. However, the problem is that the Airbus solution is severely limited by its reliance on mostly conventional technology.

Please may I have some evidence on this statement?

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 4):
Fuel consumption, payload capacity and range will be better, but pale in comparison to what the B787 will offer.

Any real source on this one again?

Regards.



Lufthansa Group of Airlines
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4693 times:

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 4):
we can expect Airbus to compensate for these economic disadvantages of the A350 by offering it at a significantly lower price, which is why airlines are looking at it and orders are being placed.

Do you have any source for that, all the indicators seem to point to other way around.. List prices, overall margins, rumors on 787 launch contracts & conditions, pls do a search around on a.net..


User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4120 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4635 times:

I'm very interested in how Airbus plans to match the interior comfort of the 787 without upgrading the materials that, according to Boeing at least, limit the amount of pressure inside the cabin.

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21580 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4632 times:

Quoting UairFokker (Reply 1):
Boeing seems much more interested than Airbus on its aircraft comfort level.

Boeing is playing catchup in this area, and the best way to catch up is to surpass and let the other guy sweat it out, just the changes to the A330-800 that makes it an 'all new' A350-800. Airbus wasn't planning on offering these features on the re-engined A330 last summer, but Boeing forced them too.

Kind of like how car companies keep pushing interior features to make the other guy look bad. Airbus did it with the cabin environments of the A330/340 and A320s, and Boeing improved things on the 777 and brought it to the 767 line as well. Now the A380 potentially offers more comfort and features to the point that Boeing added "glitz" to the 747A design, etc.

Quoting A350 (Reply 3):
Airbus plans to improve humidity and cabin pressure as Boeing does on the 787, and Leahy even claims to beat Boeing there. No words about window size

Leahy claims a lot of things. I'd like to see the numbers once Airbus does CAD studies on how they plan to achieve flatter structure, greater pressure AND higher humidity. One would expect that there needs to be some protective coating on the structure for the humidity levels to work, and that would eat into interior space, no?

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 4):
Fuel consumption, payload capacity and range will be better, but pale in comparison to what the B787 will offer.

I don't think so. B787 should offer slightly better economics (which is why Airbus is pushing the capacity figures to make them look higher than they really are), but it won't be leaps and bounds ahead of the A350, because the A330 is already efficient, and the A350 will share engines with the 787 (with slight improvements in RR's case), and use other lightening procedures to narrow that gap.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1909 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4589 times:

I'm still curious to see how Boeing solved or will solve aged resin gelcoat cracking problem on composite CFRP structures. Airbus reps do have some credible comparisons on aluminum - lithium alloys in comparison to the carbon-fibre structure. I'm pretty sure Boeing is aware of the gelcoat issue, I just wonder how are they going to solve it.


Now get your f***ing Jumbo Jet off my airport!!! - AC/DC "Ain't No Fun To Be a Millionaire"
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21580 posts, RR: 59
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4557 times:

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 9):
I'm pretty sure Boeing is aware of the gelcoat issue, I just wonder how are they going to solve it.

AFAIK, they have. There are a lot of technical articles that can be searched for talking about this.

B is doing some true innovations for this project, and that should not be overlooked in this whole A350/787 debate. Commercial aviation is going to advance quite a bit from this project, assuming B can pull it off. Very little advancement will come from the A350 project, as it only exists as a response to the 787, and it will only offer some of the same features a couple years later.

It will likely be a great plane, just not an innovating aircraft.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineAbba From Denmark, joined Jun 2005, 1385 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4523 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
Airbus wasn't planning on offering these features on the re-engined A330 last summer, but Boeing forced them too.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
Kind of like how car companies keep pushing interior features to make the other guy look bad. Airbus did it with the cabin environments of the A330/340 and A320s, and Boeing improved things on the 777 and brought it to the 767 line as well. Now the A380 potentially offers more comfort and features to the point that Boeing added "glitz" to the 747A design, etc.

Isn't competition a beautiful thing? The winners in this compaction are us - the consumers!

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
Leahy claims a lot of things. I'd like to see the numbers once Airbus does CAD studies on how they plan to achieve flatter structure, greater pressure AND higher humidity. One would expect that there needs to be some protective coating on the structure for the humidity levels to work, and that would eat into interior space, no?

Will this protective coating be needed on GLARE? Perhaps some of the new advanced alloys that they are using will allow for higher humidity without the need for coating?

Abba


User currently offlineFrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3839 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4508 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):
assuming B can pull it off

They will. I don't think anyone doubts that.

It'll be a milestone, The only question is: How big a milestone?



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2821 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4500 times:

Quoting Abba (Reply 11):
Will this protective coating be needed on GLARE?

I don't think they're using GLARE on the A350. They're using Li-Al.

Quoting Abba (Reply 11):
Isn't competition a beautiful thing? The winners in this compaction are us - the consumers!

It is the one true democracy (which technically means a system controlled by the people).


User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1597 posts, RR: 17
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4368 times:

Quoting Glom (Reply 13):
They're using Li-Al.

Yes. Boeing in conjunction with Alcoa practically invented this alloy material and has been using this extensively on the 744 and 777 fuselage panels to save weight. This has been around for over 20 years. For the 7E7, Boeing turned down the Li-Al alloys for the composite structure. Why is that? Because composites weigh less. A350 will be a fantastic machine with "787esque" comfort features w/ 200 potential sales this year as proof... it is doing very well being the second best. Congrats to Airbus for wonderful marketing.

In summary: the A350 is a larger version or a "Chinese copy" of the 787.

Cheers,

Ric



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10227 posts, RR: 97
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4218 times:
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Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
Leahy claims a lot of things. I'd like to see the numbers once Airbus does CAD studies on how they plan to achieve flatter structure, greater pressure AND higher humidity.

Here's a thought for you:- this may be one of the contributory reasons for Airbus stating a saving of 8 tonnes, which hasn't fully shown up in the OEW.
Maybe a more traditional "A330" build would have been 8t heavier to achieve these things?
Just a thought....


User currently offlineMcGoose From Sweden, joined Aug 2004, 37 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4093 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
Leahy claims a lot of things. I'd like to see the numbers once Airbus does CAD studies on how they plan to achieve flatter structure, greater pressure AND higher humidity. One would expect that there needs to be some protective coating on the structure for the humidity levels to work, and that would eat into interior space, no?

I think humidity will be a small problem. How to keep it away from sensitive areas. Probably use the same technology as Boeing will.


User currently offlineJoni From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4062 times:

Interesting text from the Flug Revue article on bleed vs. bleedless and Al-Li vs. composites:

Quote:
As John Leahy explains, �We believe it is better to use bleed air than to generate power separately. That would require liquid-cooled heat exchangers, which would raise the maintenance costs by 40 percent in return for only a 1.5 percent reduction in fuel consumption.� This maintenance argument is also used to justify the retention of aluminium in the fuselage area, compared with the composite materials to be used on the 787. As Leahy explains, �The fuselage is forever taking knocks from apron vehicles. Everyone knows how to perform an aluminium repair. With the latest aluminium lithium alloys, we can achieve half the weight saving possible from the use of composites, but with far greater ease of maintenance.� 40 percent of the A350 is composite, 20 percent is aluminium lithium and 10 percent is titanium. Over 90% of the parts are new compared with an A330. Compared with a conventional structure, the A350 will lose eight tonnes of mass through the use of new materials. According to Airbus, passenger seat costs will even be 2 percent lower than those of its rival from Seattle, the 787. The A350-800 and A350-900 will have a maximum takeoff weight of 245 tonnes.


User currently offlineWidebodyphotog From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 917 posts, RR: 67
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3951 times:

Quoting Joni (Reply 17):
Interesting text from the Flug Revue article on bleed vs. bleedless and Al-Li vs. composites:

A preceding article from Flug Revue August 2004, Walt Gillette counters the claims by Airbus rather thoroughly.

Furthermore a 1.5% fuel burn reduction from a five or 6 ton per hour fuel burn is nothing to sneeze at. That amount of reduction could be as much as USD 75/hr or more depending on your fuel prices. I also have no Idea how Leahy knows the exact costs of maintenance for 787 bleedless systems but based on the system integration principles outlined by Boeing, the componentry is remarkably simple, lightweight, and low maintenance. Gillette explains in the text of the article how airframe maintenance worries have been overcome.


BOEING 7E7: gMORE EFFICIENT THAN THE A380h



-widebodyphotog



If you know what's really going on then you'll know what to do
User currently offlinePlaneDane From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3861 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 6):
Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 4):
we can expect Airbus to compensate for these economic disadvantages of the A350 by offering it at a significantly lower price, which is why airlines are looking at it and orders are being placed.

Do you have any source for that, all the indicators seem to point to other way around.. List prices, overall margins, rumors on 787 launch contracts & conditions, pls do a search around on a.net..

Sales info leaked back to Boeing from airline customers puts it at around $85M USD. That's all the more I can say.


User currently offlineCymro From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 91 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3795 times:

Quoting Glom (Reply 13):
I don't think they're using GLARE on the A350. They're using Li-Al.

Does anyone have any figures on the weight saving Li-Al gives over the material airbus has used on previous aircraft?


User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10227 posts, RR: 97
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3699 times:
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Quoting Cymro (Reply 20):
Does anyone have any figures on the weight saving Li-Al gives over the material airbus has used on previous aircraft?

Airbus quote 5%.
A


User currently offlineCymro From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 91 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3641 times:

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 21):
Airbus quote 5%.

Thanks.

Is it possible that Airbus knew the 330 design could be improved to compete with the 787 by a re-design to bring it upto date (new materials etc) and introduction of more efficient engines.

Leaving a aircraft that they could design and produce in a shorter time space than expected and one then they could start while still running with the A380 not yet in service


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21580 posts, RR: 59
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3588 times:

Quoting Joni (Reply 17):
Interesting text from the Flug Revue article on bleed vs. bleedless and Al-Li vs. composites:

Wow, what a load of crap. He's using scare tactics for engineering counter arguments.

"Liquid cooling will take 40% more maintenance"

"composites aren't durable and are hard to repair"

translation: don't take risks on this unproven technology, go with old tech.

or worse: there is no such thing as advancement, because the problems of the past are destined to be eternal.


problem is, liquid cooling, power generators and composites are proven, and Boeing is improving them both to achieve this.

but I guess if you plane is just a "me too" effort, all you can do is bash the other guy.

the A350 will be a great plane, but I don't like to see people bash the company trying to take a risk and advance the state of the industry. that's just lame marketing.

and what's Airbus going to say when (if) the composite "problem" turns out to be a big cost positive and the 737 replacement is announced as composite and they have to do a composite A320 to compete? Will they bash composites then? And what if bleedless makes engines last longer and overall maintenance easier and less expensive and they have to go to bleedless on the A320 to compete? will liquid cooling be the bugaboo it is now?

This is the same kind of argument they made against the 777 with 2 engines but are now silent on regarding their 350.

Its the same kind of argument used to prevent societal advancements, energy exploration, etc. Basically it says: years ago, things weren't good, so for eternity, things will be just as poorly done as in the past. It ignores the advancement of technology and of man and keeps us stagnated.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineNZAA From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 163 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3558 times:

Is it me or does Leahy often talk out of his  butthead  ???
Travis



Planes Piloted Tecnam P2002 JF, Cessna 172R, Cessna 152, Airbus A320
25 PlaneDane : Conventional aluminum alloy fuselage for starters. A Boeing engineer once gave me the analogy of metal fuselages to paper clips. He said that each pr
26 Post contains images Abba : Isn't there something that doesn't add up here? The fuel saving of 20% for the 787 is compared to the 767. But isn't the 380 already 20% better than
27 PlaneDane : Where did you read that the A380 is already 20% better than the 767? Boeing's argument then and now was that technology such as FBW must pay for itse
28 Post contains images Revelation : Wow, great (but somewhat dated) article! Holy megawatts, Batman! I remember reading one reason why Boeing was succesful in its early days in the Paci
29 Post contains images QFA001 : The A350 is offered with 8% larger windows than A330/340. The B787 has 64% larger windows than the A350. Airbus didn't solve that one. Right. No GLAR
30 Cymro : A redesign to accommodate the lighter materials, improve aerodynamics and introduce modern manufacturing techniques plus more efficient engines would
31 Thorben : No, the A380 has the best fuel burn per passenger of all existing planes.
32 Stall : Window size ??? As a passanger I don't really care about the window size, what really matters for me (and for most of the passengers) is the ticket pr
33 Zeke : Composites do fatigue, ask anyone who has a composite LPG tank in their car, or a composite O2 cylinder, they do have a faitigue life. Both A&B have
34 ClassicLover : How do the new 787s window size compare to the DC-8 window size? Anyone? Cause the DC-8 had really large windows. Also, wtf is GLARE ? ... and wtf is
35 Post contains images QFA001 : Not true. Of existing airplanes with like-for-like range capability, the A380 doesn't beat the fuel burn per seat of the B777-300ER. Regardless, the
36 Thorben : And? Let the A380 have the same amount of passengers (800+), its fuel burn will be better. Do you have figures?
37 Post contains images QFA001 : This topic has been covered many, many times. However, you could also do your own analysis by using Airbus.com and Boeing.com. There is enough inform
38 Ikramerica : BTW - to be on topic in the thread. The 787 will EIS first. The A350 has new features for the A330/340 family to MATCH what the 787 offers. But it isn
39 Zeke : A lot of very similar 787 cabin "innovations" are being rolled out on the 380, by the time the 350 is released it will be proven existing technology
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