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Article: BA Chief Not Keen On The A380  
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5828 times:

This appeared in the Independent. Posturing?

http://news.independent.co.uk/business/news/article327108.ece

[Edited 2005-11-15 02:30:38]


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAirways45 From United Kingdom, joined May 2000, 300 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5809 times:

I wish BA would shut up about the A380. If any aircraft had been designed for London Heathrow it was the A380 - its a slot congested airport buster. It's an ideal replacement for BA's 747-400s, so why don't they just keep quiet and order the A380 when the time comes to replace their 744s. It's only a matter of time until they do. They were after all part of the original A380 design team. In addition, when they see Emirates, Singapore, Malaysia, Virgin and Qantas operating the big bird into LHR (and take their passengers) they too will feel the need, and the 747Advanced doesn't quite cut it in my view.

Airways45


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5791 times:

So you think this is just public posturing to get a better deal? There is another thread working in which some members opine that the 747A won't be launched; this article, if true, (heavy emphasis on the "if true") would seem to contradict those sentiments.


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineAirways45 From United Kingdom, joined May 2000, 300 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5764 times:

I don't think BA will order the A380 soon. They have no need for it at the moment. However, I can see the A380 in service with BA within 10 years.

I think that BA merely responded to a question from a journalist brought up at the time that the A380 is doing an Asian tour. I wouldn't think it amounts to posturing to get a better deal. I for one would be surprised if BA ordered the A380 in the next year. I think an order is a few years off - maybe 3 to 5. Time will tell if I'm right! I hope I am!  Smile

Airways45


User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5717 times:

Quoting Airways45 (Reply 1):
I wish BA would shut up about the A380. If any aircraft had been designed for London Heathrow it was the A380 - its a slot congested airport buster. It's an ideal replacement for BA's 747-400s,

BA does not have any problems with slots out of Heathrow Airport, so why would they need a bigger airplane than they have already?

Quote:
"We are pleased we haven't got one on order at the moment," he said. "It is too big an aircraft. There is a big question mark beside it."

I would assume the the Chief Excutive would know what he is talking about....

[Edited 2005-11-15 03:19:20]


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User currently offlineAirways45 From United Kingdom, joined May 2000, 300 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5664 times:

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 4):
BA does not have any problems with slots out of Heathrow Airport, so why would they need a bigger airport than they have already?

Heathrow is slot constrained, meaning that if BA wants to fly more passengers at peak times it either has to juggle its own slots (but this means cutting another service) or puts on a bigger aircraft. There is certainly more capacity that could be added to certain lucrative BA routes.

I wouldn't agree thought with your premise that BA doesn't have any slot problems - just hear their cry for a third runway at Heathrow to understand their slot issues. The A380 is only one of many answers to LHR's problems. However, LHR will likely have as many if not more A380 movements than any other airport in the world.

Airways45


User currently offlineSthPacific787 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5622 times:

Quoting Airways45 (Reply 1):
In addition, when they see Emirates, Singapore, Malaysia, Virgin and Qantas operating the big bird into LHR (and take their passengers) they too will feel the need, and the 747Advanced doesn't quite cut it in my view.

Luckily for BA, their fleet planners and their accountants, your view is not counted.

Willie's view however, (based on advice from within the BA organisation) is counted. Let's hope they get those 747adv's ordered in '06
 thumbsup 


User currently offlineCoa747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5600 times:

The A380 is not and ideal replacement for the 747-400. That is a very flawed argument. It is ideal for the small segment of routes that could use more capacity. But just like Finnair said about the MD-11, the only ideal replacement for a 747 is another 747. There seems to be a misguided belief that any airline flying 747-400's is a canidate for the A380. The problem is that most don't need the added capacity. The 747 and the A380 can work together in the same fleet and that is what is going to happen in my opinion the 747 Adv and A380 will fly side by side with many airlines.

User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4013 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5539 times:

BA to Boeing: "Is this the best deal you'll give us on the new 747s??? This is just about list price!!!! We might go to the A380 instead. How would you like that???"

Boeing to BA: "You opened your fat mouth and said you wouldn't. List price to you, Mr. British Airways."

It's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.

Chris in New Hampshire


User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1596 posts, RR: 18
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5511 times:

Quoting Airways45 (Reply 1):
I wish BA would shut up about the A380.

Actually, I think BA is being real smart. Airbus will bend over backwards for BA to adopt the A380. So timing will always work for BA. But the issue really lies in the fact that BA DOES NOT need the A380 for the next few years, so why should they incur additional debt? They are most likely going to get brand spanking new 747Adv for sweet deal for what will be 20 year old 744 replacement w/ a modest capacity increase. In BA's case, the A380 will never be a one to one replacement for the 747. So if the A380 turns out well all the kinks are ironed out... the A380 would compliment the 747Adv quite well.

Anyone willing to be on who will be the first airline to dump the A380 within 3 to 5 years of service??? I can think of two. Look, this bird requires a lot marketing and a lot of money to buy, maintain and run... If those seats don't fill you are going to see airlines sell the bird to the big boys.



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24654 posts, RR: 86
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5489 times:
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Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 9):
Anyone willing to be on who will be the first airline to dump the A380 within 3 to 5 years of service??

Bizarre. I've said it before, I'll say it again.

I find it hard to imagine a civil aviation forum where so many "aviation enthusiasts" are so very anxious for an aircraft to fail.

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1596 posts, RR: 18
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5468 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 10):
I find it hard to imagine a civil aviation forum where so many "aviation enthusiasts" are so very anxious for an aircraft to fail.

This is no different than many who purchased the 747 and they end up dumping them soon after. Look many airlines thinks its great idea for that moment as the marketing momentum is there. But once reality kicks in... well, its not that great of an idea.

I never said the A380 will fail. I just said its for the "big boys". thats all.



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineKL808 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1582 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5442 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 10):

I agree.

Why would BA order

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 9):
They are most likely going to get brand spanking new 747Adv for sweet deal for what will be 20 year old 744 replacement w/ a modest capacity increase

when they have stated repeatedly that there will be NO new orders for ANY aircraft until all debts have been paid off.

Drew



AMS-LAX-MNL
User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1596 posts, RR: 18
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5423 times:

Quoting KL808 (Reply 12):
when they have stated repeatedly that there will be NO new orders for ANY aircraft until all debts have been paid off.

Dude, I dont mean to be blunt. But you need to read the article, which is why this thread exists.

from the article...


"BA is reviewing its long-haul fleet requirements and is expected to reach decisions on replacement aircraft by Easter."

[Edited 2005-11-15 04:29:48]


Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11953 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5361 times:

Quoting Airways45 (Reply 1):
I wish BA would shut up about the A380. If any aircraft had been designed for London Heathrow it was the A380 - its a slot congested airport buster. It's an ideal replacement for BA's 747-400s, so why don't they just keep quiet and order the A380 when the time comes to replace their 744s. It's only a matter of time until they do. They were after all part of the original A380 design team. In addition, when they see Emirates, Singapore, Malaysia, Virgin and Qantas operating the big bird into LHR (and take their passengers) they too will feel the need, and the 747Advanced doesn't quite cut it in my view.

You should make plans to attend the next BA board meeting and explain to them what they are doing wrong. Bring along a current CV - it can't hurt!

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 2):
So you think this is just public posturing to get a better deal?

If so, then AF and LH have really blown it.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineJasond From Australia, joined Jul 2009, 23 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5322 times:

The danger for BA is if they do decide to buy the A380 is that they won't get it for a while. With manufacturing slots filling up fast and BA having no options they won't get any time soon even if they did want it.

User currently offlineCol From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2087 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5259 times:

BA do not need the capacity of the 380. They are an airline which is reducing in terms of PAX numbers, as carriers like EK/CO/EZY/FR/Jet2 pick up their regional traffic. You only have to look at the BA PAX numbers, and those for LHR to see what is going on.

The airlines which are really tight on slots, SQ/EK/VS/MH/TG, will be the growth carriers for LHR with the 380 on Long Haul.

Wouldn't be too concerned with BA buying the 747ADV, they aren't exactly going anywhere, plus it will be nice to see the 747 continue gracing the skies.


User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2822 posts, RR: 42
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5190 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter):
Posturing?



Quoting Airways45 (Reply 1):
I wish BA would shut up about the A380. If any aircraft had been designed for London Heathrow it was the A380 - its a slot congested airport buster. It's an ideal replacement for BA's 747-400s, so why don't they just keep quiet and order the A380 when the time comes to replace their 744s. It's only a matter of time until they do. They were after all part of the original A380 design team. In addition, when they see Emirates, Singapore, Malaysia, Virgin and Qantas operating the big bird into LHR (and take their passengers) they too will feel the need, and the 747Advanced doesn't quite cut it in my view.

Hope springs eternal. Logic is killed at the start of fall.

Nevermind that the testing data that came out today seems to indicate that carriers using the A380 might have to forfit more slots at heathrow because of wake turbulance being much worse the Airbus projected.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 2):
There is another thread working in which some members opine that the 747A won't be launched; this article, if true, (heavy emphasis on the "if true") would seem to contradict those sentiments.

And once again events have revealed the opiners are ill-informed. Boeing just announced a second set of orders which has pretty much green lit the 747-8 (note that it has a new designation as well)


User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9841 posts, RR: 96
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5003 times:
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Quoting Coa747 (Reply 7):
The 747 and the A380 can work together in the same fleet and that is what is going to happen in my opinion the 747 Adv and A380 will fly side by side with many airlines

Reckon you're dead right. It'll be a few years yet, though. I don't necessarily see an order for one type ruling out a subsequent order for another.


Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 9):
Anyone willing to be on who will be the first airline to dump the A380 within 3 to 5 years of service???

One assumes this is the "next generation" version of "who will be the first to cancel an A380 order" now that airlines seem to be reluctant to give up orders.

I'd be interested to know what the third generations going to be  Smile


User currently offlineLehpron From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 7028 posts, RR: 21
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4955 times:

Quoting Airways45 (Reply 1):
I wish BA would shut up about the A380. If any aircraft had been designed for London Heathrow it was the A380 - its a slot congested airport buster.

The aircraft was designed for those that ordered it and where they plan to put it, nothing else. If BA doesn't need it now, fine, they don't need it now.

Quote:
Sales of the A380 so far stand at about 139 but Airbus needs orders for 250 and possibly 300 if the dollar remains weak, to break even on the programme and pay back the £2bn in launch aid received from its four partner governments.

Well, this is interesting. Why do people on here insits [everytime I ask] that the value of the dollar has nothing to do with the break-even, they act like the break-even somehow keeps rising. No faith in the US economy, huh?  Yeah sure



The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21420 posts, RR: 60
Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4898 times:

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 9):
Anyone willing to be on who will be the first airline to dump the A380 within 3 to 5 years of service??

EK. They will dump some early A380s for newer ones with better engines, probably leasing the older planes to a carrier that "missed the boat" and wants the A380 in 2012 but didn't get their order in.

As for an airline that would dump them altogether? If the 748 works out for QF (considering it's range and payload is tailor made for SYD/MEL-LAX/SFO) and the A380 doesn't live up to the hype (too BIG ifs), you might see them sell theirs to the highest bidder, as they'll have a limited fleet to begin with. With a two year head start on EIS, the A380 will have time to prove itself, but if after 2-3 years in service the 748 proves a better jumbo for QF by 2012, well...

Just a thought to stir the pot...



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineAirways45 From United Kingdom, joined May 2000, 300 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4824 times:

It's always amusing to see our American cousins desperate to see the A380 fail.

With direct economic operating costs per seat that are 15-20% less than the 747-400 and an extra 35% capacity increase compared to the 747-400 all means that airlines can shift more people and make more money. That's an interesting point for airline bean counters to mull over. Remember that the number of premium passengers can be increased for lucrative long-haul routes (Europe - Asia, or Europe - North America)...



Airways45

Quoting SthPacific787 (Reply 6):
Luckily for BA, their fleet planners and their accountants, your view is not counted.

Willie's view however, (based on advice from within the BA organisation) is counted. Let's hope they get those 747adv's ordered in '06

Bizarre statement. Can't see your logic how one large aircraft is wrong and another is right? Seems you missed the point here.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 17):
Nevermind that the testing data that came out today seems to indicate that carriers using the A380 might have to forfit more slots at heathrow because of wake turbulance being much worse the Airbus projected.

Can you seriously ever imagine this happening?

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 19):
The aircraft was designed for those that ordered it and where they plan to put it, nothing else. If BA doesn't need it now, fine, they don't need it now.

Exactly my point. If they don't need it now (which I have argued they don't) then they should stop talking about it (shut up) until they do need it. Give us all a rest!

Airways45


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4778 times:

BA has 57 Boeing 747-400s in its fleet, the oldest of which is 16 years. They seat 413 passengers in a standard three-class configuration.

Ill informed reporter, Many BA have 291 seats. First/Club will be upgraded soon..

IMO BA&A380=When not If.

BA says they don't need them now. A few days ago Airbus clarified airlines can't get them now. 3 slots open until 2011. Wally strikes back..

It's a big Billions game beween Airbus and BA.. they'll continue telling they don't need each other for some time.

IMO inbetween the lines: BA is moving. Airbus senses it & proposes something unasked: Wally strikes back..

Wally recently said they don't need any new aircraft.
Until after 2009 that is..


User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9841 posts, RR: 96
Reply 23, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4723 times:
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Quoting Keesje (Reply 22):
Wally recently said they don't need any new aircraft.
Until after 2009 that is..

Wally is most unlikey to GET new aircraft until after 2009 - even if he wants them..... Smile


User currently offlineHS748 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4663 times:

How many more times is this topic going to be posted? We know BA isn't going to order the A380 in the foreseeable future - they've been saying so for months! Please, give it a rest.

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